Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2765

Buddy of mine had an outstanding bobcat dog that caught more cats then he treed. Seen him catch and bay several deer on bare ground when he was young. We thought he had bear or coyote bayed up til we got closer and could hear the deer blowing at him. Too trashy to free cast and too hard headed to break but he was a cat killing machine.

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Registered: Oct 2018
Location:
Posts: 30

Never doubted what you said,i've seen the same thing a couple of times but it's the exception not the rule.About the dogs of old being two years old before treeing,I don't know how far back you won't to go back but the reason those dogs existed was because that's what they were breeding.There's still people breeding dogs like that.If you're breeding dogs that don't start until they're that old, that's what you're going to get.Take a hint from the bird dog men,They take the early starting dog's and breed to the best early starting dog they have and after a very few generations you can expect to produce a high percentage of the same.I don't know about hunt speed,but some on here talk about how fast a dog's average track speed should be,that's different in different areas.Put some of these fireballs in the deep water swamps and bays of the southeast that are so thick that you have to cut your way into them,and check your average speed again.Tar,and some others can tell you that a lot of dogs won't even go in these places and a lot that do will quit and come out.A dog that gets down and trails will be in there all night,if you're going to tree many coons he's got to pick that head up and go.That doesn't just pretain to the southeast,all sections of the country have places like this,but most don't hunt there and some don't have a lot of choices.

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Registered: Feb 2018
Location:
Posts: 160

I’m not sure if it’s brain power or nose power but when you find one that has it and reproduces it as a dominant trait extremely consistently you’ve got something.
I’ve hunted with a bunch of them that would strike a track and work and peck and move it on out and tree it the same thing was always said by there owners “boy that was a bad track” I prefer the ones that on them cold nights In the winter time you think they’ve ran a deer a half mile and when you get to the tree the coon has frost on his back. I don’t believe in bad tracks or cold tracks just bad track dogs. As far as it being nose power or Brain power I couldn’t tell you but when they’ve got it they make every track look easy.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I for one never was in an area that dogs out of the founding dogs of today’s dogs produced young dogs that didn’t start till two years old and you had to pat their sides to make them tree. Why ? Because of the older hunters I hunted with if they didn’t show natural talent pretty young they got that long one way walk over the hill. I have hunted with tons of top dogs from then till now. But back in the day they competed heads up so you knew who’s dog could run a track and locate the fastest in other words the best well rounded with talent. Now days:


If he has his alpha in his coat pocket and his hand is in there with it watch eeeeeeeem boys watch eeeeeeeeeem he will toggle switch that dog away from the others all night.


Deep and alone.

Tar

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Registered: Oct 2018
Location:
Posts: 30

That's what i'm talking about.I've seen dogs struggling with a track and a certain dog come in and take it out of there like a hot track and tree with the coon and i'm not talking about running junk and falling off,i'm talking about jamming it right straight off the track.Not many of those kind around,when most people see it they think he's running junk.The problem is with most dogs they are running junk.I've been following you,your dad and your dogs for awhile and that's the kind of dogs everyone needs to go with at least one time.Impressive is the word.Another thing,some of the best and smartest coonhunters I've known were young people.Age doesn't especially make you an outstanding hunter,some old hunters are still where they started.Someone that REALLY LOVES the sport and applies their self,will rise to the top.From what I hear and see,you ,your dad and your dogs are right up there.

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

I don't believe a truly outstanding track dog can be evaluated unless you take a yardstick along to compare the two. I can determine in one drop if I want to see more out of a dog, but to evaluate more than the performance style without another dog to compare their level of performance is not a fair evaluation. There never has been a lot of outstanding track dog.

Dennis Steinhauser Northridge Kates Bonnie beat both Wild Bill and Big Country at the UKC World Hunt and was sick. Bonnie was high scoring dog both night at the Zone too, if I recall. I've never hunted with Bonnie, but she must be an outstanding track dog.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1911

quote:

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Originally posted by Kler Kry
I don't believe a truly outstanding track dog can be evaluated unless you take a yardstick along to compare the two. I can determine in one drop if I want to see more out of a dog, but to evaluate more than the performance style without another dog to compare their level of performance is not a fair evaluation. There never has been a lot of outstanding track dog.

Dennis Steinhauser Northridge Kates Bonnie beat both Wild Bill and Big Country at the UKC World Hunt and was sick. Bonnie was high scoring dog both night at the Zone too, if I recall. I've never hunted with Bonnie, but she must be an outstanding track dog.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Two things have changed to change the way we think about a track dog.


1. Back in the day dogs packed and hunted longer time limits so you had to have a dog that was superior in tracking and treeing above the rest of the pack and in the meantime not loose the points they accumulated during the hunt.


2. Now came along the somebody’s got to get paid mentality. They went to building dogs to fit the loopholes in the rules playing the odds of being away from the pack. Ukc’s new rules will narrow those odds they are in my opinion the best in the business.


Tar

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 417

A top track driving dog is worthless without locating and staying treed I hunted with some 30 years ago in hunts would run a track but needed dogs with them at the tree also vice versa tree dogs that couldn't run a track those dogs packed up and it was a calling contest sometimes the bottom line the top end type dogs are far and few between for one reason or another

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Wart how long did you keep one that wouldn’t stay treed without others ?



I know how long the guys I hunted against would before they got that long one way walk over the hill.



Tar

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 417

Not very long but others would because the dogs packed up alot and would hold a tree with other dogs I wouldn't waste feeding them

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Prior to popular belief we didn’t have as many hunts and usually 60 days before a major one we started conditioning a dog alone to make them peak at the time of the hunt that was to create confidence to dominate the pack not to make them be deep and alone.



So we knew a weak tree dog when we seen one.


Tar

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Registered: Oct 2018
Location:
Posts: 30

I think a lot of people have skipped the first word COMPETITION,whats competition about being somewhere by yourself.Sure you can tree a coon but what are you competing against.Years ago the clubs were only allowed two hunts a year and they had a one hundred and fifty mile limit,which they followed.Also, all you had were UKC hunts and when you had a hunt everyone was there and ready.It didn't take long for the top dogs to get noticed and i'm not talking about pack dogs i'm talking about dominating first and first type dogs,and remember you actually had to have a coon back then.Also, in the big hunts,there was no re entry,you had one chance.ACHA was the only World Hunt ,you hunted even numbered dogs on Monday and odd on Tuesday, cast winners with PLUS POINTS advanced to Wednesday cast winners with PLUS POINTS hunted alone Thursday night, the top twenty with PLUS POINTS went to semi finals then top four PLUS POINT cast winners hunted for the championship.Also, remember these were three hour hunts and you had to hunt the whole three hours every night,including the night you hunted alone.There was no tree one and quit, you had to hunt the whole three hours and have PLUS POINTS without minusing out.I'm not getting into which was best new or old but be honest with yourself and look at the scores in all of the big hunts and in the local hunts.Remember,no re entry and have to have PLUS POINTS how many dogs do you know that could finish a world hunt or win consistently,with these rules and requirements.In the world hunt a dog had to hunt five out of six nights, three hours a night,win the cast every night with plus points,and not minus out.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I know you probly looked at the new rules. What was done in good coon country that deep and alone will not block a dog from treeing coons all behind and around you. A true track dog and an accurate tree dog that’s indifferent ( like the dogs we used to hunt ) that it don’t matter where the pack is will excell. That means it trees coons as it comes to them without culling the colder tracks. A true track dog it’s hard to tell if it’s a hot or cold track or tree.



Tar

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Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Central,illinois
Posts: 569

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Two things have changed to change the way we think about a track dog.


1. Back in the day dogs packed and hunted longer time limits so you had to have a dog that was superior in tracking and treeing above the rest of the pack and in the meantime not loose the points they accumulated during the hunt.


2. Now came along the somebody’s got to get paid mentality. They went to building dogs to fit the loopholes in the rules playing the odds of being away from the pack. Ukc’s new rules will narrow those odds they are in my opinion the best in the business.
Dogs were built to win in the hunts,not necessarily to coon hunt with....big difference !

Tar

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5637

Tar and oldsouth123 are spot on regarding the 3 hour hunts, 3 hours separates the coon dogs from the rest. I know times have changed and the hunting lands have been reduced and the 3 hour hunts are nothing but a memory, but it took a coon dog then, not so much today to win a cast. Older hunters like myself still miss those days, while the younger hunters will NEVER have the chance to compete at that level. Hopefully, the new rules will bring change and the coon dogs will once again be the ones winning these hunts, not the one and done deep and alone type dogs. Dave

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1565

Well I don't know much on how often you guys hunt or for how long when you do. But I don't just look at how well my dog does at freeing coons in 60 minutes or 90 or 120. K look at how many trees with coons vs not. And I tend to pay way more attention at how the dog performs at the 4 or 5 hour mark. And here's why........ I want a dog to perform the same late as it does early. There's way too many dogs that can't hold it together in a late round. So if you like hunting 3 hour hunts its still an option just not in UKC, and only bigger hunt in PKC but you have to win early to hunt late.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

30 minutes is enough for me then get snacks.



Tar

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1565

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
30 minutes is enough for me then get snacks.



Tar

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Eric DePue
Hill Country Kennels Itty-Bitty
PKC CH Wax's Late Night Boom
And
Partners on a few common trashy young dogs

Gone but not forgotten

GrNtCh, PKC Ch Hillbilly Bildo
Pr Broken Oaks Wild Blue Gypsy

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

You don’t know what your missing to have a 3 hr death march in a pair of red ball rubber boots. We didn’t have these fancy boots you would have blisters for a week lol.


Tar

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Registered: Dec 2010
Location:
Posts: 1202

I I don’t get all the 3 hour stuff. The hunts I prepaired mine for you had to win early then late. A lot of nights at the end of the night she was off leash for 6-7 hours then went the next night. Not bragging but I run 25-35 miles a week. If they ware out before me they have no heart and I’m not feeding them. They either have it or the don’t. 3 hours. You got got to be kidding me.

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Registered: Dec 2010
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Posts: 1202

I I don’t get all the 3 hour stuff. The hunts I prepaired mine for you had to win early then late. A lot of nights at the end of the night she was off leash for 6-7 hours then went the next night. Not bragging but I run 25-35 miles a week. If they ware out before me they have no heart and I’m not feeding them. They either have it or the don’t. 3 hours. You got got to be kidding me.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

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Originally posted by N Williams
I I don’t get all the 3 hour stuff. The hunts I prepaired mine for you had to win early then late. A lot of nights at the end of the night she was off leash for 6-7 hours then went the next night. Not bragging but I run 25-35 miles a week. If they ware out before me they have no heart and I’m not feeding them. They either have it or the don’t. 3 hours. You got got to be kidding me.

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Registered: Dec 2010
Location:
Posts: 1202

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
3 hrs in the same spot 300 minus and you was out not getting paid. And if your dog babbled you could be on the way to the truck quick. No plus points no win It wasent gravy train.

Ok you win we was sissy’s.

Tar

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Yes zeb 3 was a top reproducer and the only reason I missed it was because I am way older than you and I had a broke back, ankle and bad knees and couldn’t and wouldn’t follow a babbling ,bronkey, blow deep dog. And spend money my family needed to prove what ?



For some us the past is all we got. But we keep setting behind that table putting on hunts. so you can prove what a dog man really is.


Tar

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