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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4281

Re: Re: Breeding

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
As I have "said" it is all about balance "to me". Jim gets too deep, is too independent and is very tight on track. My females are open mouth track dogs that have excellent noses and look for and try to work the first track they come to which sometimes gets them in trouble. But they will tree with another dog or by themselves, they don't care. So Jim was a logical choice (to me) to try to get balanced pups that "I" would like. If you want those leave the country, super independant, run anything then take a female that has those traits and breed her to Jim.

Do you think breeding complete opposites creates an equal balanced mix of both dogs traits?
I'm just asking....because a lot of people believe that.
It sounds logical...but I have studied the result of crosses like that for years and found that it rarely is the end result. Usually....you get some pups that take after one parent and some that take after the other and you may get a trait swap on one or two pups.
To put it simply....breed a tight mouth quick tree dog to an open mouth not so quick tree dog and a certain percentage of the pups will be more like one parent and the rest will be like the other....in most traits. There might be some minor differences like type of mouth or volume or color and this really depends on how dominant those traits were in any particular parent.
I've seen people breeding opposites hoping to get an equal and balanced mix of both parents for 30 years now and have rarely seen it actually produce the desired results. I used to do it myself years ago...but abandoned that method because it wasn't getting me what most would bet money it would.
In recent years I have evolved to a different mindset based on proven breeding practices that were adapted from livestock and racehorse breeders.
I try to start with a balanced female...from a line of the same. Let's say she is pretty strong in most traits I need for competition...but she is chop mouth on track and I want to add more of a bawl mouth on track.
The male I would choose to breed her to would not be completely opposite of her traits.
He would be almost identical in most traits except for the one I want to add....and I want that one particular trait to be very dominant in him, his offspring and in his ancestors.
So when I breed them....the only real variable in the offspring is really that one trait because the other traits are very similar to begin with and should be a pretty sure thing. Now I can tell you that when I have done this...that one trait I was trying to add only shows up in some of the pups...not all. On average I would say close to 50%.
Once you have a new trait added (keep in mind it is not yet a dominant trait)....then you have to breed that dog to another dog who also is dominant in that trait to help lock it in. This usually takes at least 2-4 generations. If you don't do this you will probably lose that trait in most pups after a generation or two.
I'm not telling anyone else how to breed....im just explaing why I quit breeding opposites to opposites hoping for balance....it just wasn't working for me and when I started looking back ....it was apperant it has never worked that well for most other breeders either.r
It's one of those things that is counter intuitive....just like repeat crosses. It doesn't make sense that it doesn't work...but the evidence shows that it rarely if ever does.
I know...lots of people will argue till they are blue in the face....but if they would just look at the facts they will see the odds are against it...and this breed needs to use methods that stack the odds in favor of success ....not failure, so thats why I'm always doing research and fact checking to try to find better ways to move the breed forward.

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Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
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11-18-2017 05:43 PM

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L.Richard
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 483

Good reading

The outlaw is making sense. You could even go a step more, how many common bitches have been crossed to an outstanding male.... In hopes that the offspring would take after the sire?and some of those pups will also be bred... With the same philosophy . We could only guess of the out come of this plan.allow me to ask..... When dogs , other then the walker breed, win and win big, they get called hot nosed pop up dogs? I have witnessed this action for years, the ones guilty of classifying the winners, have some God given rite to set the rules for the rest of us.If some think not..... Read thru the preceding posts again.it would appear that it is much easier to defend ones dogs, and actions then to try and make a difference within ones breed of choice.

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11-18-2017 07:39 PM

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22463

Re: Good reading

quote:
Originally posted by L.Richard
..... When dogs , other then the walker breed, win and win big, they get called hot nosed pop up dogs? I have witnessed this action for years, the ones guilty of classifying the winners, have some God given rite to set the rules for the rest of us.If some think not..... Read thru the preceding posts again.it would appear that it is much easier to defend ones dogs, and actions then to try and make a difference within ones breed of choice.

Oh my goodness, everyone is welcome to their own opinion I guess but that is just mean. Whether right or wrong, statements like that are why a lot of people are reluctant to post anything on this forum.

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11-18-2017 08:23 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4281

If this breed really wants to to change in ways that allow it to produce Redbones with the "right stuff"....the ability and traits that it needs to beat other breeds that have those things in higher percentages than we do....maybe it's time we DO ask the hard questions....questions that demand answers...not excuses.
It's not mean...its just necessary if we are serious about producing more and more big winners.

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11-18-2017 08:34 PM

Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22463

That sure doesn't look like a question to me. And why is it necessary? What is a statement like that going to accomplish? And do you think that you can get an answer by demanding it?

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11-18-2017 09:27 PM

L.Richard
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 483

One question

And three statements.

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11-18-2017 10:50 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4281

I said if we want to breed better redbones...maybe we need to ask the hard questions....
Like does this breed have "high drive"?
We can either answer the question honestly....and then talk about how we can improve it, or we can deny it's a problem and make excuses to cover up the problem.
When people ask questions like this...im pretty sure they want answers and solutions....not excuses.
You can call answers to those questions "statements" or opinions or whatever you want but nobody is forcing anybody to do anything....if people don't like the question...dont answer. But the more we talk about problems and possible solutions...the more likely we will actually find solutions.

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11-19-2017 12:06 AM

Adam Wingler
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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1529

De-railed. What was the original question again? 😐

Good points, bad points, I like my apples green...he likes his red...

I just wanna see more drive, and I too wanna know those who got it and make it a priority in their breeding. I�m not a breeder, but a dedicated hunter who is picky! I can do a lot of things to a dog, but make it hunt and hunt hard ain�t one of em, and if you say you can, show me! If we all had that magic potion it wouldn�t even be a topic. So we breed for it...period.

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11-19-2017 01:24 AM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4281

The only thing that bothers me about this conversation and others that talk about a specific trait is that people will throw out the name of their favorite line and say if you want this trait...this is the line that has it!
Like that's the be all end all on the subject.
People who do this don't get out and hunt with many of the best from other lines because if they did they would know that there are good examples of most desired traits in most lines of Redbones. The trouble is....no line has cornered the market on drive and your guaranteed to get high drive everytime or even most of the time from that line. I have hunted with several dogs from lines mentioned in this thread that were described as having the most drive compared to other lines and they didn't impress that upon me when I saw them go...and they are some really big winners too! Maybe I saw em on bad nights...maybe their owners don't really know what kind of drive top level dogs really have or maybe they just like to embellish the ability of their dogs for whatever reason.
The fact is...i have seen Redbones with a lot of drive from many different lines...but very few lines seem to be able to reproduce that trait on a predictable basis.
That's a problem in this breed ...but it's a problem I believe we can fix. It's not going to happen in one cross in a single generation of dogs....its going to take several...probably 3 to 5 generations of targeted specific line breeding to lock it in so it's somewhat dominant.
That's my opinion...and it's based on years of study and trial and error in breeding. But myself and the guys I have been working with over just the past 5 years are seeing tangible results. That isn't just my opinion....its based on the competition winners we have bred, raised, trained and then proven in competition hunts in the past few years. Less than a dozen of us have bred, trained and titled nearly 15 Grand Nite Champion Redbones and another dozen or so Nite Champions Redbones in just a few years. They have won multiple Redbone days, hi opp sex, National Grand Nite titles at Autumn Oaks, between $30k and $40k in the money hunt registries and placed many times in the top 20 of different world championships.
I'm not going to name them because I'm not trying to steer anyone to any one particular line. I'm simply saying that the group of breeders and hunters I have been working with these past 5 years know what it takes to win and we know why Redbones consistently come up short at top level competition hunts and we decided a few years back that we are going to make some changes.
We started working together to identify certain dogs and certain traits we felt like we could benefit with in our competition redbones...and trust me...it has been working.
No...we have not won a world championship (unless you count the two AKC Ladies World Championships Lisa Key won with two of our dogs)...but neither have You! But we have had plenty of dogs making the top 20 and knocking on the door getting as close as 8th place multiple times. We have won a lot of money and several breed hunts and other big hunts and you just can't do that much winning without most of those dogs having a high amount of drive and desire.
Are we satisfied and think we have enough or that we have the best...id say all of us would say NO.
But we see improvement far beyond the occasional dog with high drive that many other lines produce. Some day I hope we see several lines that produce a high level.of drive in most of their offspring and that it's dominant enough that it is almost predictable. That is one of our highest goals anyway. Working together and being honest about where Redbones need improvement is just critical to making those improvements a reality. Good luck to everyone, I know there are many others out there working hard to improve the breed...its not about who gets there first...because we are all going to benefit from it.

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-19-2017 at 03:04 AM

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11-19-2017 02:57 AM

L.Richard
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 483

what is the truth?

In the race horse game....you want a horse with drive,with the ability to run faster then the rest.In the dairy business...you need cows with the will to milk( drive).In the beef business you need the genetics to add muscle mass as quickly as possible(the drive to turn feed in to meat).My question is simple, in all other speicies we breed for "drive,maybe desire is a better term".Why would we not want this desire in our hounds?This term is often turned in to a negative twist....Why? if you think not, reread the whole thread once more.And no this post and the others that I have posted, are not being mean...trying to ask good thought out questions...nothing more.

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11-19-2017 11:06 AM

jdgher
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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: East central Illinois.
Posts: 1700

Breeding for winners

If you want winners then take your female and breed her to a winner. Our breed has had some winners and to the best of my knowledge they don't get bred very much. What's that about? We don't have a world champion Redbone, but there have been some get in the final 20. They had to beat some real good dogs to get there. Why don't those dogs have at least a couple hundred pups on the ground.
The dogs I'm talking about got their wins fair and square.
I must be getting old, because I'm ok with not winning that much, but rather would have a dog I like to hunt during the week and the weekend. I'm not really a breeder, so I won't be holding the breed back or anything.

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11-19-2017 11:42 AM

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oklared
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Registered: May 2005
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I'D SAY IT'S ALL BUSH'S FAULT

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11-19-2017 12:54 PM

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L.Richard
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Registered: Jul 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 483

That"s it!

Now we got something to talk about.

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11-19-2017 01:44 PM

pamjohnson
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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

i don't have red dogs but blue dogs and this thread has sparked my interest.
i can tell jared hutchesun has hunted with some good dogs that are winners and describes them well.
high drive starts with the handler.
1. do ya hunt alone cause not many will enjoy hunting with you.
2. do ya have big woods. roads kill hard going dogs.
3. does getting in posted ground or backyards matter because it will
happen.
4. do you have a job. there is going to be some long nites and not just
a nite or 2
5. forget training pups with this dog in most cases.
6. terrain can be a huge factor
7. just how young and how good of shape are ya in?
i'm sure there is some things i'm missing. most fellows have more common sense than to want a hound like that. yes they can win but most don't want to hunt them or can't handle them if they were real honest.
now if ya cut your dog loose an caught or seen your dog after ya cut loose than you just don't understand what high drive is.

how many want this? yes there are a few handlers that can pass this test but they are fewer than the dogs that can.
maybe what i have posted sounds a little on the negative side but its not meant to be i just think most people need to be realistic about what they can handle and enjoy that. great dogs can come with a handle on them and can be extremely enjoyable.

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11-19-2017 04:05 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4281

I know there are a lot of pleasure hunters out there and some competition hunters who like a dog that handles well and doesn't blow out of an area and cross roads and get where they shouldn't on a regular basis.
I think most people know that when I write on here it's almost always geared towards serious competition hunters and breeders trying to produce the type of hounds they need to win. When I talk about changing the breed in ways that will allow it to compete better....im not talking about changing all the lines of Redbones that make up the breed.. I'm talking about improving the lines bred almost entirely by and for serious competition hunters. I don't want anyone to think I am trying to convince people who have close to medium hunting dogs that they really like that way to change that. Most people know what I mean but I forget sometimes that not everyone who reads this board follows the breed close enough to know where I stand on things like this. When I give opinions or suggestions it's usually an attempt to put out useful information to a those who are trying to reach the same goals that I am and most of my goals have to do with breeding better competition Redbones.
As winter rolls in and the competition hunts pretty much end till late January in the upper midwest...I like many others in the north start weighing in and talking more about what we have learned over the past year in competition or previous years. This happens every year through the winter. Talk is good. Hard questions and honest answers are good. But in the past many good threads have gotten off track when people run out of honest answers and start hurling insults and jealous hurtful jabs. This is a good topic and I have really enjoyed reading all the posts and sharing information with others and getting a feel for how many think High Drive is an important trait and just what most people consider High Drive really is.
I hope to see many more good discussions about thing that are really important to competition hunters in this breed over the winter.

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11-19-2017 08:17 PM

jbiggert
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My thoughts , its not dog power or a line of red dog that is the trouble. Are red dogs are doing just fine. WHEN YOU GO TO A BIG HUNT AN THEM 100 WALKERS ARE THERE 10%OF THEM WALKERS HAVE HANDLES THAT ARE PAID WELL OR ARE THE BEST IN THE LAND. I dont think its the red dogs fault for not having that best handler to be a winner. IN ALL MY HUNTS SOMEONE HAS MADE A BAD CALL. WE MUST BECOME BETTER HANDLER FIRST.

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11-20-2017 02:38 AM

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jbiggert
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11-20-2017 02:38 AM

Richard Lambert
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Posts: 22463

Mr Biggert, you may be on to something there. Maybe we should breed, train and raise better handlers. Mike Young took Buck all of the way to the Top 20 at the UKC World but got beat out by a dog that treed a possum and advanced thanks to some slick handling. Then look what Buck did when Doc hired a Pro handler for him. Darrin, it is a shame that some nice females weren't bred to Buck. He should have produced some nice balanced pups that could win with a good handler. And look at what Larry Walker's Bull pup won when he hired a Pro to hunt her in the S/S. And look at what a Pro like Tony accomplished with G. But most Redbone owners are the type that want to hunt their own dog. Maybe it is just an excuse but it sure does seem to make sense.
I just wish that I had the money to hire one of those big time Pro's to hunt Boone. But Garrett is all that I can afford.

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11-20-2017 02:06 PM

jkhutch
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Registered: Jun 2009
Location: West Central Indiana
Posts: 1318

Just My Opinion, but I think the breed is missing some High Drive Females. I think a few males that are alive today can produce some of what I was talking about in my post above if bred to the right female. IMO, We are missing some of these big hunting get deep in a hurry, big mouthed, coon minded, fast females to breed on a consistant basis. "High Drive" females! Does anyone have any of these?? I know of just a couple alive today that Ive hunting with personally but are missing some mouth I would like. Alot of people say that females through alot of genes that go into are pups, so maybe this could be the problem.

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11-20-2017 03:09 PM

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Richard Lambert
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quote:
Originally posted by jkhutch
I still to this day havnt hunted with a Redbone that has the speed and drive to find a coon than some of the walkers I hunt with in my area and that I have drawn at some bigger hunts. I�m not talking about the 100 and 100 pack hunting quick strike dogs and 1 bark tree dogs. I�m talking about the dogs that are struck for 2nd to 4th and treed first at 600 yards alone.......

Are you saying that Fancy isn't this type of dog? I quess that you haven't hunted with her. I wonder what she could do with one of those big time Pro handlers? And what about Jeff Murphy's Gr Nt Jessie? And then there is Gr Nt Smith's Banjo Cat. Oh my goodness, and I thought that my memory was bad.

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11-20-2017 04:29 PM

Richard Lambert
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Oops, I forgot about Gr Nt Toadie. But then, isn't she Fancy's mother?
And then there is Gr Nt Sweet Ben. Maybe he just slipped your mind also. Jared, you are awfully young to have such a poor memory.

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11-20-2017 04:43 PM

jkhutch
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Registered: Jun 2009
Location: West Central Indiana
Posts: 1318

Now Richard if you read my post about the females I said a couple I have hunted with but, but were lacking the mouth..... who do ya think I was talking about 😀.

And as far as Ben, yes he would be A Redbone stud that should throw some of the qualities. The times I hunted with him he was a dog that had the drive and coon finding abilities.

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11-20-2017 06:40 PM

Richard Lambert
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Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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My reading comprehension skills aren't what they used to be. So I wonder what you would get if you bred Fancy to a high drive big winning male? I bet those pups would be easy to sell.

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11-20-2017 08:02 PM

Adam Wingler
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
So I wonder what you would get if you bred Fancy to a high drive big winning male? I bet those pups would be easy to sell.

😳 shots fired!

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11-20-2017 08:35 PM

blairforce1
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Registered: Dec 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 238

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Richard Lambert
So I wonder what you would get if you bred Fancy to a high drive big winning male? I bet those pups would be easy to sell. [/QUOTE

What males would qualify to make that list i wonder. Mr. Lambert?

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11-20-2017 10:24 PM