Registered: Mar 2012
Location: michigan
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So if I have it correct a t and penny cross would be 21.875% inbred getting 12.5 from pepper Ann and 8.375 from kate. So the higher the % the closer a dogs relationship is to a single strain/line of dogs?

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Wch. Nite Ch. Gr.Ch NIGHTYNITE GREAT LAKES PENNY.

Great lakes Reggie. My jet & 90 pup

Derek Fackler
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i think i will just cull and start all over.who would want that much kate and ann gen% in there pups anyway. but i bet the pups could be out crossed to anything out there. im just going to have to call my old buddy... JOE ...to find out what to do. john
P.S. dont let richard know please john

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John Biggert

Males

1) Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Nighty Nite Little Red - (Semen) (Gr. Nt. Yellow River Rocky X Nt. Ch. Gr. F Grw. Maggie)

2) Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch. Nighty Nite Red Cloud - 4 Years Old (Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. To The Max X Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight Pepper Ann)

3) Nighty Nite T - (Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight After Shock X Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight Pepper Ann)

Females

1) Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight Pepper Ann - 9 Years Old (Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Steps Little Pepper X Gr. Nt. Ch. Nighty Nite Moonlight Kate)

2) Gr. Ch. Nighty Nite Little Red Sky - 3 Years Old (Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Outlaw Red Moon X Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight Pepper Ann)

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quote:

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Originally posted by jbiggert
im just going to have to call my old buddy... JOE ...to find out what to do. john

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Does the Professor answer your calls? He must have caller ID. When I call he never answers.

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So how close is TOO close. anybody have an any thoughts. We have been pouring the line together and so far so good .How do you know when to outcross ??

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Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,


They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sawblade
So how close is TOO close. anybody have an any thoughts. We have been pouring the line together and so far so good .How do you know when to outcross ??

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I've asked this question to all the "old timers" I know. I don't get a solid answer. I figure when the linebreeding starts producing litters of dominant pups carrying the traits that the breeder sought out to "save" then I figure a breeder should outcross (bridge) to bring in "new traits" then go right back to line breeding. If I remember correctly when you "outcross" that offspring returns to 0, (its still linebred on 1 side) but then is returned to the original "line" to continue on and on. I'm not a breeder tho, I just try to keep a nice young dog around. I'd like to see some input on this question as well

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Location: ky.
Posts: 360

TOO CLOSE

1. lets look at the inbreeding calculator posted on here for a moment. ok,,,lets view it as a full gauge on a car. as the inbreeding
coefficient goes up from say,,, 0% to 25% ,,,, it is measuring how close your linebreeding program has become. an open pedigree would be at 0% and a father to daughter cross would be at 25%.
so,,,, at 0% the fuel guage is on empty,,, lets say at 25% the fuel guage is at full. different breeders will tell you to use different numbers to use,,,, from my evaluation,,, somewhere around the 20% to 30% mark should be a warning to us that we need to look for a way to ease the number back down. also we can look at another number,,, the AVK,,,, but this one works backwards,,,it starts at 100 and goes backwards,,, the more of the same dogs that are in the pedigree, the lower the number becomes,,, an open pedigree would be at 100% and as one linebreeds the number would began to lower. same here,,,different strokes for different folks,,,but from my evaluation,,,when it gets to between 50% to 60% one should look to bring the number back up a little with some added dogs to the future ped. [ REALIZE ,, i am not saying to do a total outcross,,, but use an animal if possible that has 75% of your blood already in its ped and leaving 25% of its ped to bring in new blood. ] this tool is handy in the fashion that it tells you when it may be,,,, TOO MUCH.

2. another approach
let nature tell you when it is enough. if you are having huge litters and then the litters become terribly small,,,, if your animals have always been extremely fertile and all of a sudden you run into fertility problems etc..... its gotten TOO CLOSE.

note; i have known of breeding programs that run coeifficient numbers up to 65% with no problems whatsoever.

remember this; linebreeding does not create health issues in the animals linebred upon,,,but reveals the issues that are already present. cull any animals that are not fit specimens of the breed. by doing this you will rid your line of health issues that may come back to haunt you later.

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article
Outcross Only for Definite Purpose

Those doing planned breeding based upon inbreeding and line breeding should outcross only for a definite purpose. Where the misconception started that it is not safe to inbreed more than three generations without an outcross nobody seems to know, but it is not necessarily valid. To my own misfortune I myself believed this fallacy at one time, and reaped the consequences.
Every experienced breeder knows that, perhaps more often than not, the offspring of a first-generation outcross of two excellent animals show many of the good points of their parents. That is why, when so many of those first generation puppies from outcross matings are doing well, their breeders, and others who have noted this, rush to make similar breedings. They will undoubtedly learn, as I did, that the youngsters of succeeding generations of outcross breeding will be a heterogeneous lot, showing an absolute lack of uniformity. This will not only prevent those breeders from developing and holding a proper type, but will help to make their breed one of even further differing types in size and proportion.
Such breeders then, do a disservice to their breed and are mainly responsible for the great differentiation within it.
Breeders who believe that an outcross should be made at some definite time as, for instance, the previously mentioned third generation, are, as another writer has put it, giving credence to one of those "old wives’ tales" to which some dog breeders seem to be particularly addicted.

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article
When Should Outcross Be Made?

In answering this question, I can give no better advice than that advanced by Dr. Daglish: "To ask when an outcross should be made in a certain number of generations is like asking on which days of the week one should carry an umbrella." It seems to be a popular belief that bringing in new blood every once in awhile, or even with every breeding, must be beneficial after line breeding and inbreeding have been practiced for a few generations, but it is absolutely the opposite of the truth if my several times repeated tenet, ‘Physical compensation is the foundation rock upon which all enduring worth must be built." has been followed during the period of closed-up breeding.
If my readers have obtained a correct understanding of the earlier installments of these articles, they will know that inbreeding and line breeding make for the elimination of recessive factors, which produce faults, and bring about purification within their strain. This close breeding upon the blood of one or more superior specimens has quite rapidly done away with the influence of the more faulty ancestors, and caused a definite type to be established. Because, at least after the first generation of an outcross mating, a breeder will LOSE THE TYPE HE HAS WORKED TO OBTAIN through line breeding and inbreeding (unless he then breeds back into his established line), an outcross should be made only FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE— to correct a fault or faults which may have shown up in his inbred strain.
To be successful as a breeder, one must seek to produce animals which are genetically pure for all those dominant qualities which are demanded by the breed’s Standard of perfection. The nearer he approaches that ideal the more uniform—similar in type—will be the dogs he produces.
When a breeder of any variety of dogs uses the more distantly related animals in his matings, he can expect less uniformity in the offspring. So, as previously stated, if complete outcrosses are used at all, they should be made for a definite reason and not with the belief that the purpose of the matings will be fulfilled in one generation.
To supply some backing for what I have written however, other than my own statement of fact) which is based upon both study and experience, I quote Onstott: "Any virtues which may be added to a strain through out-crossing . . . cannot be looked upon as inherent in that strain UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN PURIFIED AND FIXED WITHIN THAT STRAIN THROUGH INBREEDING.
Out crossing is only to be employed as a means to an end and as a preliminary to the FIXATION of its good results, if any, through inbreeding."

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It is so good to have you on this post ,this is the best stuff I have ever read on here. The total post ,everyones responses make this a tool for anyone to use weather they follow all of it or only parts.

I have a question on this last part. I f I understand right. The more we concentrate our bloodlines traits thru linebreding or inbreeding the less likely it is we will need to go back to old blood or out for new blood . This should only be considered when basic faults show up and we are looking for dogs that carry the correction in their traits. If this is true and we have built our lines on particular dogs from the past wouldn't we want at some time to bring those dogs back in. Aren't they the dogs we are trying to replicate.

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Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,


They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sawblade
It is so good to have you on this post ,this is the best stuff I have ever read on here. The total post ,everyones responses make this a tool for anyone to use weather they follow all of it or only parts.

I have a question on this last part. I f I understand right. The more we concentrate our bloodlines traits thru linebreding or inbreeding the less likely it is we will need to go back to old blood or out for new blood . This should only be considered when basic faults show up and we are looking for dogs that carry the correction in their traits. If this is true and we have built our lines on particular dogs from the past wouldn't we want at some time to bring those dogs back in. Aren't they the dogs we are trying to replicate.

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article

What actually happens in a successful linebreeding program is that over the years the dominate genes in the line tend to lessen in number. This is because unless a dominate gene was selected out for in each successive animal it can never "reappear" in the same way that a recessive gene can. Obviously if neither of the parents displays this dominate gene then none of the offspring can - because it no longer exists in the genepool.
Dominant genes are either displayed or they don't exist. And it should be noted by any serious Breeder that the "Original Animal" his particular line was built on was the only animal in his line to carry all of the dominate genes originally possible. From that point in a truly closed breeding program there is only the chance that the number of dominate genes will decline as they are slowly being replaced on each point of the gene string by recessive genes. There is no other possibility unless a breeder outcrosses.
Therefore if the Breeder isn't skillful in accessing and selecting offspring they will lose some of their precious dominant genes over time. Often we hear Breeders say they are “needing an outcross” - what they are really saying is that they have lost their original dominant genes and have no other means of getting them back. These could be some of the most cherished traits of the Fountainhead Animal.
If possible it is wise for you as a lineBreeder to freeze semen on old stud dogs in your genepool who are known to throw the dominate genes you value. This gives any Breeder the ultimate insurance policy - the ability to "outcross" within their own genepool if they were unfortunate enough to lose valued dominant genes over time. We have made good use of frozen semen on a number of occasions.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Preston Owens
" I'm not linebreeding/inbreeding to "Save"or "Recreate"a dog but to save the "traits"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sawblade
It is so good to have you on this post ,this is the best stuff I have ever read on here. The total post ,everyones responses make this a tool for anyone to use weather they follow all of it or only parts.

I have a question on this last part. I f I understand right. The more we concentrate our bloodlines traits thru linebreding or inbreeding the less likely it is we will need to go back to old blood or out for new blood . This should only be considered when basic faults show up and we are looking for dogs that carry the correction in their traits. If this is true and we have built our lines on particular dogs from the past wouldn't we want at some time to bring those dogs back in. Aren't they the dogs we are trying to replicate.

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Last edited by mrg on 03-06-2013 at 02:45 PM

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ARTICLE
One of the more interesting things about a linebred genepool is that it is difficult if not impossible to pass a linebreeding program on to another Breeder. Lets assume that you have put in the work and made the difficult decisions not to use certain specimens (even those with highly touted titles and awards) because they pass on undesirable genes. Let's assume you have managed to clean up your genepool. At the point another Breeder is lucky enough to bred to some of your best specimens it will improve virtually anything the other breeder has.
Unfortunately, while those who outcross to your line will improve their genetic structure the genes of your inbred line will tend to vanish because these genes will very likely be more recessive than the outcross genes. In effect the outcross genepool will "cover up" your more recessive inbred genes. And there is not much either breeder can do about it - even if you wanted to. Unfortunately many breeders do this to themselves.
We have seen this many times over the years especially from those who think they can "buy their way in." The fallacy in their thinking is that they can buy a line breed brood bitch from one line and a line bred brood bitch from yet another line to breed to their great new Stud Dog . They think they can start a breeding program overnight from three different genepools because the dogs are such fine specimens. Oh if it were so simple.
Often overly enthusiastic newbies in their over simplified thinking take this exact approach. Unfortunately, it is the third generation where the wheels come off. Why the third generation? Well the first two liters were dynamite because they were both F1 hybrid liters. But when the F1 hybrid offspring from one linebred bitch are bred to F1 hybrid offspring of the other linebred bitch things come apart. In fact this "well laid plan" is a sure receipt for breeding straight downhill.
So what is the answer? Wherein lies the truth? It is not what you want to hear but here it is: Years and years of line breeding by a committed ethical Breeder - someone with a vision of perfection and the tenacity to make difficult decisions. The only way to consistently produce superior animals is to linebred. Period ... it’s that simple!
Those who argue against linebreeding are inevitably those who have never successfully bred animals themselves - most often they are college professors. The same people who have bred nothing more complicated than fruit flies or no more demanding than lab rats are often the most vocal about how others should breed performance animals. These "know-nothings" advocate the notion that out-crossing is in and of itself good because it produces some thing they often refer to as "hybrid vigor".
To them, and to you, we pose this question: "If out-cross breeding is the answer then why don't the owners of successful herds of Holstein milk cows out-cross to the American Shorthorn milk cow?" In theory this would produce super milk cows by combining a milk cow that has the genes for high milk production like the Holstein with one that has the genes for high milk quality like the American Shorthorn. Oh yes on both paper (the stuff of academia) and in theory this should produce the best milk cows on earth.
But this is where the theory that reigns supreme in the professor’s lab meets the reality of the milk barn. Some of the most inbred animals on the face of the earth are Holstein Cattle. The reality is that dairy farmers know all too well is that they would go broke from the inferior milk production of the resulting out-crossed animals. Crossing to an animal with such poor milk production would be disastrous fore them. And here in lies the rub for all of us ...
Understand something and don’t let anyone sway you again. Outcrossing does NOT produce “more” – the genetic material remains the same. Nor do the qualities of the subject animals it produces multiply. Just as linebreeding doesn’t damage genes - outcrossing doesn’t magnify what’s in the genome. There is no magic in out crossing!

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CONTINUED
Note: So called "hybrid vigor" is never in and of itself the answer to breeding better specimens. The quality of the specimen used in any breeding is far more important than whether or not a particular animal has a very low inbreeding coefficient or whether the proposed breeding will result in a low inbreeding coefficient.
And for those who continue to stubbornly advocate outcrossing we ask you this final question: "Even if by random chance the outcross breeding in question would actually produce a superior specimen would the animal in question be able to reproduce itself? Would the greatness be passed on to its get?" No.
The sad fact is that this superior specimen would likely not be able to reproduce itself. It will likely never throw a single specimen as good as it is in its lifetime. This is because by definition this “super specimen” is of the F1 generation. And animals of this generation are rarely able to reproduce themselves. So what has been accomplished by even a successful outcross? Little or nothing other than to put a single animal on the ground.
For fun I would like to invite this no-nothing college professor to the race track where for an afternoon he would have the opportunity to bet on all the outcrosses and I would bet on all the linebred race horses. I believe we call them Thoroughbreds for a reason don’t we? Oh but I forgot he wouldn’t be the betting kind would he? Not in his lifestyle and not in his career. No, he would be the man of theory. He would be a man who lives in the world of theory.
Not us my friend! No, we both live in the world of fact. You see we own performance animals not lab rats.
Think about it. Those who advocate the outcrossing of dogs are effectively proposing that hunters entrust the development of their performance dogs to the whims of random chance.
Successful linebreeding is a long and arduous task - one that requires a lifetime's commitment to a particular line of dogs.
It is from the legacy of Breeders who refused to settle, who held to their standards when things didn’t go as planned that we owe so much. It is from those Breeders who bred to the brother of the champion because he produced better pups than the titled dog that all of us enjoy a robust gene pool today. To them we all owe a huge debt of gratitude.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RedScorpion
Is Outcrossing Dangerous?
First published in the "Australian Shepherd Journal" Mar/Apr 2005

by C.A. Sharp

Breeders’ lore has long maintained that outcrossing ought to be done only occasionally if at all because doing so dilutes the qualities of a line courts disaster. There are numerous tales about breedings that went wrong because of an outcross. But is this really the case?

There are volumes of breeder lore supporting the assumption that outcrossing is not a viable breeding strategy if done over multiple generations, though it might be done occasionally within a linebreeding program but not without some risk. That assumption is not supported by genetic science or mathematical analysis, so why is this belief so pervasive?

In large part it stems from the assumption that linebreeding is superior because it allows the breeder to concentrate desirable genes while at the same time eliminating those that are undesirable. Linebreeding is very effective for fixing trait that are readily observed or measured. A trait is genetically “fixed” when it is consistent throughout a population, like the color black in Schipperkes. If linebreeding were not effective in this respect, we wouldn’t have so many distinct breeds of dog.

Genetically complex traits can be difficult to fix, though diligent selection for them over many generations can significantly increase their frequency in a breed population. Herding ability is a genetically complex trait involving multiple genes plus environment. Even in bloodlines where selection for a high level of herding ability has been strong for generation after generation, the breeder still will produce some pups that don’t measure up.

The success of linebreeding as a technique for consistently producing desirable traits has fed the myth that undesirable traits can be totally purged from a line or breed. While an undesirable trait—whether it is something cosmetic like color or a serious health concern like epilepsy—can be reduced in frequency through diligent selection against it, in most cases it will not be possible to eliminate the trait entirely unless it is the result of a single gene dominant. Most such traits were weeded out of modern breeds a long time ago.

If the trait is a single-gene recessive, careful and consistent selection against it will eventually reduce its frequency to low levels. The trait will not be produced often, but it will still crop up from time to time. Rare breeds may actually lose the gene through a process called genetic drift simply because their populations are so small that there is a fair chance the unwanted gene won’t get passed along. In populous breeds, however, this is unlikely to happen. The key to reducing the frequency of unwanted genes as much as possible is consistent negative selection no matter whether linebreeding or outcrossing is employed.

As we saw with herding ability, desirable traits with complex inheritance are impossible to fix. Total elimination of such traits is equally impossible outside of very small breeding populations. Hip dysplasia (HD) is but one example. The key to reducing the frequency of something like HD is diligent and consistent selection.

A serious impediment to significantly reducing the frequency of unwanted traits is the set of priorities every breeder must establish for her breeding program: Which traits are vital, which can be tolerated, and which are unacceptable. It is impossible to achieve every breeding goal in a single litter, so the breeder will rearrange that priority list somewhat from one mating to the next. This can interfere with the effort to eliminate unwanted traits because unless most or all breeders are consistent in viewing the trait as intolerable, it will persist. Even if the gene frequency is significantly reduced over time, all it takes is one popular sire who is a carrier to make the trait common once again as people linebreed on him and his near kin. Too often one hears the refrain, “but he’s such a nice dog!” even though that dog has or produces a serious defect or disease.

The complexities of breeder priorities are not the only reason unwanted genes persist. Breeders may not know those genes are there until the trait crops up in a litter. The days of huge kennels with meticulous records on generation after generation of dogs are long gone. Most breeders have only a very few dogs and regularly need to make use of outside studs or purchase new stock from another breeder. Unless everyone keeps all their cards on the table, linebreeding cannot be fully effective in clearing genes for unwanted traits.

If the chain of information is broken anywhere in the breeder network, someone will make a disastrous mating choice no matter whether they linebreed or outcross. When it happens in an outcross, people tend to assume the outcross was the cause. This attitude prevails because provides an easy answer that allows the owners of both stud and brood bitch to assume it must have come from the other side. In truth, both need to acknowledge the fact that the genes are there and it could happen again.

There is actually a greater risk of producing unwanted traits through linebreeding than outcrossing. If a trait has occurred, the genes are present in the line. Continued linebreeding will inevitably bring them together again.

For outcrossing to work effectively, assortative mating should be employed. It allows the breeder to maintain the desirable qualities and the same time reduce the risk of producing unwanted outcomes.

Assortative mating is the selection of pairs based on phenotype—what you see or know about the dog and its family—rather than the pedigree. To be successful in any breeding endeavor, the breeder must have a clear idea of what traits he wants and which he does not, as well as how much potential his bitch has for carrying those genes. Studs should be evaluated based on what they have produced and the phenotypes of the members of their extended families, including full- and half-siblings plus parents and grandparents and their full and half siblings. If that family of dogs is consistent for the desired traits and lacks those the breeder wishes to avoid, the mating has a strong probability of success no matter what the pedigrees involved.
Risk for unwanted traits, like health issues, are maximally reduced by giving preference to suitable studs are the least related among the group you are considering.

Is outcrossing dangerous? Not if done with suitable animals in conjunction with knowledge of both desired and unwanted traits in the family background of both sides of the equation.

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good post, Thanks for posting it

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You know....if redbone people keep studying successful breeding techniques and strategies, and refusing to settle for being the 5th or 6th best breed in terms of competition success and popularity among all the coon hound breeds....we just might raise our breed to new heights not seen in decades
Keep an open mind people....but more importantly.....keep educating your minds! Refuse to accept the status quo and prove (or disprove) your crosses based on some of the newer theories being tested by today's breeders!

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My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
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Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
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loyd c. brackett article

Breeding From the Best Without Regard to Bloodlines

I have reference here to the practice of selecting and breeding from the best individuals but without regard to bloodlines. It is probable that, given enough time, a fancier might come up with quite a percentage of good dogs, especially if he confined himself to a rather limited area wherein his selections came originally from related foundation stock. But in actual practice the breeder following this method succeeds in producing nothing of note, and breeds a jumble of different types. It is the system usually followed by beginners and those whose main purpose is to breed puppies they can sell on the basis of quoting some "big" names and the greatest number of "champions" in the pedigree. If and when such breeders turn into fanciers whose main objective is to become preeminent by building a strain of superior animals within the breed, they go at once into some form of inbreeding or line breeding and this of necessity if they are to succeed. The system of breeding one follows, in other words, depends upon the result to be accomplished. If the purpose is breed improvement, then inbreeding and line breeding will be found most effective.

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continued

Building a Strain
Up to that time my breeding operations had been of the sort practiced by the average dog fancier, fully 98% of them, I would estimate. This consisted of mating the best bitches I could get to the best available males, regardless of related bloodlines. It is true, however, that for many years I had practiced compensatory matings — using studs strong in characteristics in which the bitches needed improvement. This was a plan, but not a breeding program such as I then inaugurated, although it produced more than the average run of good specimens which are bred by those who make only hit-or-miss matings, but still it did not give me multiple Champion litters, or establish a definite TYPE. As explained in the preceding articles, these results can be obtained ONLY by utilizing the power of inbreeding and line breeding.

Foundation Blood Intensifies
Pedigrees: Year after year, and generation after generation, this foundation blood continued to intensify in the pedigrees of my dogs. Modified out crossings were made only occasionally. By "modified" I mean that, when reaching out for some needed trait, I used a stud or bitch possessing at least one-fourth, or better, one-half, of the blood of my strain. Both in such instances, and in the rare ones when complete out crossing was done, I made it a practice to mate one or more of the resultant progeny right back into the strain. By doing this, I did not lose the qualities I had strived to obtain and make dominant, nor did I dissipate them.
Some of the results of this breeding program were reported last month. Multiple champion litters became more the rule than the exception, often with every member who was given a chance, through being shown by its owner, finishing for the title.

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois
Posts: 741

Actually a planned balanced approach in breeding should be undertaken. Like dogs do not breed like dogs. Like genes do produce like genes. When we breed ...we are not simply mating two dogs together...we are pairing genes. That's why it is important to judge the pedigrees (genotype)of the Dam and Sire. By doing so you can somewhat gauge how the lines have produced over successive generations and what they have produced by way of ability in the resultant and subsequent generations.
Secondly the phenotype should be considered. Phenotype (a result of genotype or how the genes paired up) is looks...but also encompasses the drive of the parents...open-semi or silent...bawl or chop...close-medium or far driving...ect.
You can actually capture and conserve the qualities you like and discard the unwanted qualities through a planned approach to breeding.
It is also possible to conserve the prepotence of any particular dog...male or female by line-breeding and inbreeding...making an outcross to a somewhat related line and then go back into the line. As with any breeding program, there are setbacks and hazards with any approach, whether it be close breeding or complete outcrossing.
A planned approach may be as follows:
Decide on essential traits that you desire to produce.
Decide on the faults that you consider intolerable.
Develop a score card in which the selected traits and intolerable traits can be scored accordingly and their importance to your breeding program.Line breed consistantly to the best individual produced, until a better one occurs and then line breed to that one.
Wide outcrosses should not be made until the establishment of a strain, but some outside blood should then be introduced...then back to the top of your score card and start again.
A knowledgeable breeder will in-breed...line-breed and outcross when indicated using his score card...or plot the dogs based on a bell curve. In so doing each dog is scored on that will range from bad to excellent. If the scores were plotted as a graph the score would approximate a normal curve. The goal of the breeder should be to produce a strain whose merit curves lie above the curve of the breed as a whole and to pick mates that will "nick" together when bred.
If one parent is good and the other bad then the merit of the offspring will generally be similar to the strain or the breed as a whole. We want to produce dogs that lie above that indicator.
Lastly, breeding by phenotype only is based on breeding for looks and is largely used be breeders of show dogs and does not consider ability. A balanced approach should be sought in ones breeding program. All of the modern day lines of race horses were bred from three horses used as parent stock with no degenerecy.

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Michael & Raquel Knight

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Last edited by MightyOaks'Leps on 03-09-2013 at 11:50 AM

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Registered: Jun 2009
Location: ky.
Posts: 360

THE CREATORS WAY OF BUILDING A NATION
LOYD C. BRACKETT
Humans
The origin of the human family is mysterious, but history has given us certain examples of consanguinity.
We have read of an old Syrian tribesman named Terati who had three sons and a daughter named respectively Nahor, Haran, Abram and Sarai, by different wives. Contrary to modern custom, the two latter (half brother and sister) married, and their son married Nahor’s granddaughter who was twice his first cousin, once removed, and they were known as Isaac and Rebekah. Their son Jacob married his two first cousins (great-granddaughters of Nahor, Terah’s son) and had eight sons, who became the founders of the most persistently influential nation in human history, the ever-miraculous Jewish race.
Eight of the twelve founders of tribes have each four separate crosses to Terah, and they passed a law to establish their tradition that their children should not marry into strange families, which law survives in essence today. Of the many charges brought against the Jews in all of history, nobody has ever levied, or even heard, that of degeneracy.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1587

To get more specific to our own breed ,I'm wondering how many people are working on really developing a "Strain" of dogs using these methods and how far along are they in reaching consistent litters that express the traits they want. What are the traits .
My question is for this purpose. It is a common know fact that most all dogs in our breed today do go back to only a few key animals. TimberChopper being one of the main ones. If we have developed several different strains of redbones that all are based off of TC than when outcrossing these different strains together we should not deplete our dominate genes . I am of the belief that because our breed is based off these few individuals when we find these Strains of dogs that have proven they produces several generations of Supercross litters . We should be able to outcross into them with very good results. As long as we have a supercross top and bottom.

I'll use my own dogs as an example. we currently have dogs that go back to Famous Amos 6 and 7 times showing him top and bottom many times. Others are working on a different strain but also showing Famous Amos many times. These two strain are different but each has proven several generations of supercross results. if these two are now crossed would this be an outcross or what would we call it and what would we expect.
I would expect very good results and individual dogs that now could be used to improve either strain.
it kind of like the twix commercial on tv with the two identical company's making the same candy bar out of the same ingrediants. But they both think they have something completely different. Do they ?

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Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,


They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 26

Getting ready to do a half bro half sis cross .I am hopin that this theory holds true.We don't know till we try these things.I know that these two dogs daddy is the best dog I ve have ever owned and had the pleasure to follow for 4 short short yrs.

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**HOME OF U.K.C. NITECH 'PR' CLEARFORK VALLEYS RUSTY BELL 6th place Pup Derby winner Thurs 2011 National Redbone Days, 4th place reg. Saturday 2011 National Redbone Days, 1st place reg. June 8 2012 Nova OH**

**HOME OF U.K.C. 'PR' CLEARFORK VALLEYS TUFF AS NAILS**(TUFF) 3rd place Cardington Ohio

**HOME OF U.K.C. NITE.CH.'PR' CLEARFORK VALLEYS RED RUSTY (Deceased) 4th place Thurs 2007 National Redbone Days, 8th place National Redbone Days 2008, 2nd place Nitech High Scoring Male 2010 Thursday National Redbone Days, 1st place Nitech High Scoring Male Sat 2010 National Redbone Days**

**HOME OF U.K.C. NITE CH. 'PR' NATES LITTLE RED GIRL**(Deceased)



CLEARFORK VALLEY KENNELS

Nate Ratcliff, 419-685-1437
Jim Hicks, 419-565-9031

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Grant County AR
Posts: 1279

quote:

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Originally posted by Preston Owens
submitted by Dow Hale:

........................Inbreeding
..........Dr. R.A. Guill geneticist

I think there is somewhat of a misconception about inbreeding and/ or linebreeding. Inbreeding is the breeding of two individuals more closely related than the average inbreeding of the population from which these two individuals were taken, Linebreeding is a mild form of inbreeding usually where one individual keeps showing up on one side of the pedigree.
I have read advertisements where people say they have bred granddaughter to a grandson of old so-and-so and the pups will have 50% of his blood. These pups infact would only be slightly over 3% inbred. Inbreeding is expressed as Inbreeding coefficents which are calculated by the formula Fx=(1/2)n-1(1Fa). These coefficients are only statistical values acquired by the number of generations the animal in question is removed from its common ancestor. These coeffients are theoretical values assuming every gene on every chromosome has equally 1/2 chance being passed on to the next generation.
When practicing an inbreeding program one should look very closely at the individuals used.For example,when breeding half brother to half sister,these two individuals should be very much like the common ancestor from which they got their outstanding characteristics.If one was like its dam and the other one is like its sire there is no need to inbreed these two individuals because you are not concentrating on the genes of one individual. Father to daughter,and son to dam are also methods of inbreeding.Here again,only breed a sire to his daughter if that daughter is very much like her sire and the same for son to dam.There would be no need to breed a son to his dam if the son was like his sire,you would not be accumulating the desirable genes of the dam which is the purpose of inbreeding. I would not advise Full Brother -Sister matings because you do not know which common ancestor you are accumulating the traits from the grandam or grandsire.
The following list shows some of the inbreeding coefficients of certain crosses: (assuming none of the ancestors are inbred)
1.Sire X Daughter .25
2.Son X Dam .25
3. Full Brother X full Sister .25 (.125 from each grandparent)
4.half brother X Half Sister .125
5.Sire x grandam .125
6. sire X granddaughter .125
7.nephew X Aunt .0625
8. Niece X Uncle .0625
9.Double first cousins .0625 (.0156 from each great grand parent)
10. first cousins .03125 (.0156 from two great grandparents)

I also think people are confusing open and silent trailing ability, which doesnt have anything to do with inbreeding other than the fact that you can increase or decrease this trait by inbreeding.Most dogs of the hound variety, can smell about the same,the difference is not in the nose of the dog but the excitability threshold. How much scent does it take to excite that individual before it will bark. This is the trait we are breeding for. The same type inheritance is involved in treeing. It is controlled by multiple genetic factors. A dog isnt either open or silent nor will he bark treed or wont bark treed! It just isnt that simple,there are multigenetic factors involved in these traits and we use the treeing because by in large those dogs that are real hard hunters,good strike dogs and trail dogs are not as good on the tree.Where as the the real good tree dogs are not quite as good on hustle,strike,and trail.We are beginning to break up these linkage groups because we are breeding lines of dogs that are better in striking,trailing,and treeing.
The reason it is difficult to get everything in one individual is because of the number of traits we are selecting for.Suppose we are selecting for tree barking,tree locating, tree holding (all of which are different) Hustle,quick strike,ability to move a track once struck,voice,right amount of voice depending on type of track,handling ability,conformation,color. This would put eleven where N is in the formula,that is if we give each trait the same weight on selection. Therefore X would equal .3, or we would expect this much progress in our breeding program if we had all these traits in our breeding stock. We dont make this much progress each generation,but we are making such faster advancements than in the past. One important Fact we cannot overlook,is the difference in the way people are handling and training these dogs. genetic makeup is only 50% and environment plays the other 50% of what each hound makes. So to have an outstanding hound,you must have one that has the genetic makeup to be outstanding, then the rest is left up to the trainer.


I thought this article was very well written and thought Id share it with all of yall. Ive read it countless times over the years to remind me how important the SELECTION process is. I hope yall enjoy it

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Registered: Jul 2009
Location: middlesex NC
Posts: 329

I have always enjoyed talking to Dow Hale. He is a very knowledgeable breeder and has always helped me when I have had questions about dogs. The last time Mr. Dow went hunting was in 2008 after I came back frow the AKC world hunt. He hunted with Rudy and a 7mo.old Trudy. Everytime I am up his way I try to stop in and see Mr.Dow. The last time I was up his way we talked dogs and breeding for hours. I have learned alot for him.

Adrian Strickland

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Adrian & Becky Strickland
Home of Grnitech.Neuse River Heat
NTCH.HEATS Neuse River Polly
Home of the Tar River Redbones:
Nite Ch, GrCH 2008 AKC World Champion Redbone Tar Rivers Rambling Red Rudy
Nite Ch Tar Rivers Rudy's Trudy "T"(2011 Grand American Final 4)


In Memory of
Ntch.Tar Rivers Red Alice
Gr Ch Hales Red Ruby
Gr Ch Tar Rivers Big Slick
Tar River Buddy

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