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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1666

Re: Pamjohnson

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Why in the world would a good handler turn his dog loose again, when they had the hunt won? Dalton is an excellent handler and had nothing to gain by turning Shack loose again. He might have gotten hurt or anything happen to him, it's one thing to compete and another thing to take unnecessary chances. Knowing the rules is a must if you are going to compete at that level, knowing that ALL the other handlers will know the rules. Why would you question this decision, when NO ONE ELSE had said a word about it, except to mention that he done a great handling job, ( I was one that mentioned that fact ) Ignorance is only bliss if kept to ones self, not broadcast on a public forum. Nuff said. Dave
if I knew the rule I sure wouldn't have been dumb enough to ask and look as stupid as I do. The cost of an education from a few of you almost isn't worth the hassle.
Yes Dalton did a fine job handling.

Keel Johnson

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9342

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
Tar it makes me want to believe that if he wanted to run it with his head up he wouldnít be playing catch up. Mess around an out run his nose.




A dog that is on the same workable track as the other dogs and refuses to catch up and compete with the other dogs is having a brain fart and deserves way more than a minus. He does have the option if they pull up short to trail right past them and go on and tree the coon.


You want to race get a race car ! If not stay home and watch big dan and little Ann find grandpa!!


Tar

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damon shivers
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Registered: Apr 2007
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My ?

Dog A trees and after 2 min. Gone dog B can only get 25 so after the 3 dog B can only be - next available which is 25 right?

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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
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Posts: 3287

Keel Johnson

Maybe it's the way you come across, nothing wrong with asking a question about something you don't know. I for one don't want to throw you under the bus for not knowing something. I would suggest a little more thought in how you ask your questions and not imply something that you do not mean. I commend you for admitting you were wrong, takes a man to do that. Dave

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Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4756

Re: My ?

quote:
Originally posted by damon shivers
Dog A trees and after 2 min. Gone dog B can only get 25 so after the 3 dog B can only be - next available which is 25 right?


The way many are describing it next available jumps up to 75. Doesn't make sense to me but it doesn't matter. I'll play by the rules they say.

Would have to see what UKC says on how it will be enforced

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Rocketman55
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2179

I would like to take on this concept by some, that any dog that takes more than 2 minutes to decide to cover is a worthless piece of crap. It seems to me that this tree countdown rule will change the type of dog we are now hunting to an even more worthless piece of crap. You see a dog will now have very little time to check out a dog that is treeing to see if that dog is worthy of the trust of that ole hound that is coming in late. Thus what this new rule will now create is an even more mee tooing piece of crap. You see they are going to have to either get on the wood without fully checking it out OR get gone from a tree that has a coon in it.

You see not every track we run here in SE Ohio is a barn burner from strike to tree. Some tracks are old feeder tracks that wonder down the creek, swing up and over a ridge top, and may be sitting in a tree some 300 to 400 yards over the top of a 1000 foot high ridge. Coon are not like rats here, so a dog must take it's tracks as it comes to them. Lets say we turn loose and some of the dogs that will open on a bad track, begin trailing a cold feeder track up and over a ridge, Lets say Ole silent slipped out on that same track and fell treed maybe 100 yards ahead of the trailing dog, Lets say the trailing dog gets to that tree in 1 minute 15 seconds. That only gives him 45 seconds to determine if ole silent is empty, or if he has actually got a coon. This slower working dog, maybe not as fast to blow up on a tree, but when it does it will have a coon, may not have enough time on the new rules clock to determine if ole silent trigger, is a pop up dog or an actual coon dog. It looks like with this new rule we are going to breed the intelligence out of our dogs and require them to stop thinking for themselves and jump right on and tree with a dog that may very well be empty, OR breed them to not ever want to tree with another dog, and quite frankly I don't like either type of these dogs, so maybe it IS time for me to find a registry that still values the abilities of a REAL coon hound.Go ahead and bash me for I already know I'm not as smart as most all that thinks a coon dog has to decide weather to back or not with a dog it has never hunted with before, in less than two minutes or it is considered a mere booing idiot.

I will take that dog every day that checks ole slick and then moves on down the hollow some 50 to 100 yards and has the meat. Again my point is not all our tracks are screamers here where I live.

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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1188

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
If a tree is "dead" after 3 minutes, you can't tree a dog on it. The new rule says that dogs at a tree when the cast arrives will be assigned next available position and minused. Now after 3 minutes the next available position is zero since the tree is dead and you can't tree in on it. What are they going to do?

Now having a tree countdown, I can understand. And saying that a tree is dead after 3 minutes, I can understand also. But this assigning tree points and minusing them makes no sense to me whatsoever.


quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
The problem is that if a dog is the first dog treed and scored that when they are recast they might get with another dog that treed after they did and the three minutes is up on the second dogs tree. This is going to get the first dog to tree a coon some minus points and the second dog treed is still going to have more points overall even though it took him/her longer to get trees with a coon than the first dog. This is going to mean to avoid those minus points people are going to have to train or breed even more for dogs that are independent. A dog would always get their strike minused before but now they will also get some tree points minused. That is the biggest difference.



Agreed 100 % what in the world are these people thinking that voted for this . ABSOLUTELY IDIOTIC CHANGE !!!!

It is bad enough they shortened the tree time to three minutes . You are going to take minus on tracks if a coon is seen. But now you want to assign tree points TOO and minus them ?

I can see a lot of people going blind on trees and not seeing the coon.

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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 4143

Re: My ?

quote:
Originally posted by damon shivers
Dog A trees and after 2 min. Gone dog B can only get 25 so after the 3 dog B can only be - next available which is 25 right?

No. If there is only one dog "declared treed " any dog that was not declared treed before time is up on the tree would receive 75 as next available.

The reason why....
Judges only keep track of the tree times on dogs that are declared treed. It is not up to a judge to determine what time a dog that was not declared treed actually arrived at a tree. Was it before the time was up and tree was not closed and the handler for whatever reason didn't tree the dog? Was it while walking to the tree to score it? Was it while cast is shining and scoring a different tree? As you can see there are many instances where it would be impossible to ever determine what time a dog arrived.

Next available is exactly that, whatever next available is. It will never be above a dog that has been declared treed but multiple dogs can hold the 4th tree position just like multiple dogs can hold the 4th strike position. Next available is not a new concept. Next available and splitting positions in the case of multiple dogs not declared treed but are in fact at the closed tree upon arrival of the judge has been in effect on slicks and off game for a very long time. Next available on these trees in the case of only 1 dog declared treed and another dog present when the judge arrives has always been 75, a countdown does not change that.
The countdown can actually benefit a late or non declared dog if 2 dogs have been declared treed and one of the 2 was declared treed after 2 minutes has expired on the tree. If a dog not declared treed is present it will receive only 25 where previous to this change it would have recieved 50 as next available.

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berger
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2735

Just to be frank, This rule is absolutely Stupid in more ways then one. The fact that there was 1 more vote for this rule then for a countdown on tree is absolutely ridiculous..

There was a post on this board a few weeks ago about the scratch mentality in UKC, how about the minus mentality by competition hunters. Do competition hunters have such worthless dogs that they have to figure out ways to minus dogs that are not competitive??

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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 233

I see you people are wanting the competition dogs to be like the people in this world. If they canít take care of themselves an tree their own coon no need to worry. Just cut back loose an go back the nearest dog. Thatís why I voted for Trump. Donít like sharing my pie with someone that doesnít deserve it.

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Sonny Phipps
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Glenmont,Ohio
Posts: 828

quote:
Originally posted by berger
Just to be frank, This rule is absolutely Stupid in more ways then one. The fact that there was 1 more vote for this rule then for a countdown on tree is absolutely ridiculous..

There was a post on this board a few weeks ago about the scratch mentality in UKC, how about the minus mentality by competition hunters. Do competition hunters have such worthless dogs that they have to figure out ways to minus dogs that are not competitive??



Iím going into this with a open mind but I personally donít see why we need to minus dogs more for being slow or me too to much. Every time Iíve got beat by a dog that me to a lot or backed late I can honestly say that my dog wasnít doing itís best to tree a coon or was completely out classed by the other dogs. None of this stuff matters if your dog strikes faster, gets treed with a coon more efficient then the others. I think I just need a better dog until that is achieved. Not minus the other dogs more . JMO

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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1188

Already said and will again this is absolutely STUPID rule change. WHAT WERE THESE REPS THINKING????????

Let's see if this is under stood ?

First you do away with the leash lock. that's good.

Now if a guy decides to recut and say one dog is treed or even gets treed about that time. If the recut dog happens to cover the treed dog after the three minutes. A coon is seen . That dog is going to eat 75-. But if it covers at 2:59 can only get 25+. CRAZY!!
If the old rules made a guy keep his dog on the leash this new rule surely will.
__________________________________________
New rules say after two minutes most you can tree for is 25 points. Buttttttt heaven forbid your dog covers after three minutes you get minus on strike just like the old rule did.
Now for some crazy idea of this rules committee you are awarded next available tree that now jumps up back up to 75 points.
If you can't get more than 25 why is it jumped to 75 ???
For that matter why even assign tree points and minus ?? The first treed dog already got an advantage with 125 .

Furthermore if these rules go into effect as written. If a dog can't possibly get more then 25 points after 2 minutes how can anyone justify jumping the next available tree points back up to 75 points on off game and slick trees a dog is found treeing yet shut out on.
_____________________________________________
The next question as on off game and slick trees . Under current rules ,if the dog comes in "AFTER" the judge they are safe.
So under the new rules I guess these dogs should get the same consideration and be safe the same way if a coon is seen??? Right??

None of this sounds right or makes a hill of beans sense.
___________________________________________

Here is something actually happened the last night I went hunting.
It fits these new changes perfectly and tell me if it was really fair to dog A.

Three dogs cut loose.
Dog A busts a hole in the dark on a hard run to the right.
Dog B,C buddy up and go off slightly to the left and straight ahead.
Strike Dog A about 250 yards down in a creek bottom.
Within a few minutes Strike dog B and C split strike . Both struck together about 200 yards up the creek and slightly on a hillside.
Within 15 to 20 seconds both are treeing and called treed in one breath.
Dog A is steadily without hesitation moving the track up the creek and toward dogs B and C.
In over 3 minutes but less than 5 minutes Dog A refuses to quit its track .Continues toward B and C and ends up treed with them.
It was pretty obvious Dogs B and C jumped this track ahead of Dog A on the upper end of this creek.
A coon was seen. Final score Dogs B and C 187 1/2+ and 187 1/2+
Dog A 150 -
Question ???? What did dog A do wrong to warrant it getting 150- ?
Even though dogs B and C treed first. Dog A showed the independence by going off alone . Not quitting its track and just covering . Hey it could had been a slick or possum .
Dog A would had been there in under 5 and still got part of the tree.

And don't start with the it should had quit and covered . This young dog A did nothing wrong IMO.

Seriously if this had been a nite hunt under the new rules it would stink.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

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NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
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GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

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Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
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Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
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berger
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2735

quote:
Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
Iím going into this with a open mind but I personally donít see why we need to minus dogs more for being slow or me too to much. Every time Iíve got beat by a dog that me to a lot or backed late I can honestly say that my dog wasnít doing itís best to tree a coon or was completely out classed by the other dogs. None of this stuff matters if your dog strikes faster, gets treed with a coon more efficient then the others. I think I just need a better dog until that is achieved. Not minus the other dogs more . JMO


The thing is this is a rule to punish a dog treeing a coon. At your local hunts and clubs. You have officers that are pleasure hunters and hide hunters. These are your local guides. Now if guides dog trees a close coon and another one trees 200yds on in and others are running. You score his coon pull off the dog 200yds deeper tree is closed. He pulls off and recuts in the direction towards other dogs. His dog goes hunting smells the same track the other dog is treeing on runs in there and trees. The dog did what they are supposed to do take each track as they get to it and tree the coon. Except the tree is closed was closed before he ever turned loose. So he takes minus for doing what a dog is supposed to do. Well let me tell you I hope those young competition hunters that want a loaner are ready to scratch their entry and guide when the need arises as this hide hunter won't be back to guide.!!!!!!!

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J.H. Sills
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location:
Posts: 24

quote:
Originally posted by berger
The thing is this is a rule to punish a dog treeing a coon. At your local hunts and clubs. You have officers that are pleasure hunters and hide hunters. These are your local guides. Now if guides dog trees a close coon and another one trees 200yds on in and others are running. You score his coon pull off the dog 200yds deeper tree is closed. He pulls off and recuts in the direction towards other dogs. His dog goes hunting smells the same track the other dog is treeing on runs in there and trees. The dog did what they are supposed to do take each track as they get to it and tree the coon. Except the tree is closed was closed before he ever turned loose. So he takes minus for doing what a dog is supposed to do. Well let me tell you I hope those young competition hunters that want a loaner are ready to scratch their entry and guide when the need arises as this hide hunter won't be back to guide.!!!!!!!


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Old Post 09-11-2019 05:53 AM
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Grant Noeske
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 1057

Re: Re: My ?

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
No. If there is only one dog "declared treed " any dog that was not declared treed before time is up on the tree would receive 75 as next available.

The reason why....
Judges only keep track of the tree times on dogs that are declared treed. It is not up to a judge to determine what time a dog that was not declared treed actually arrived at a tree. Was it before the time was up and tree was not closed and the handler for whatever reason didn't tree the dog? Was it while walking to the tree to score it? Was it while cast is shining and scoring a different tree? As you can see there are many instances where it would be impossible to ever determine what time a dog arrived.

Next available is exactly that, whatever next available is. It will never be above a dog that has been declared treed but multiple dogs can hold the 4th tree position just like multiple dogs can hold the 4th strike position. Next available is not a new concept. Next available and splitting positions in the case of multiple dogs not declared treed but are in fact at the closed tree upon arrival of the judge has been in effect on slicks and off game for a very long time. Next available on these trees in the case of only 1 dog declared treed and another dog present when the judge arrives has always been 75, a countdown does not change that.
The countdown can actually benefit a late or non declared dog if 2 dogs have been declared treed and one of the 2 was declared treed after 2 minutes has expired on the tree. If a dog not declared treed is present it will receive only 25 where previous to this change it would have recieved 50 as next available.



Any dog at the tree after the judge arrives would get 25 points assigned, regardless if only one dog was declared treed or three dogs were declared treed on that tree. After 2 minutes, next available is 25, so that is what they would receive. This was confirmed.

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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 4143

Re: Re: Re: My ?

quote:
Originally posted by Grant Noeske
Any dog at the tree after the judge arrives would get 25 points assigned, regardless if only one dog was declared treed or three dogs were declared treed on that tree. After 2 minutes, next available is 25, so that is what they would receive. This was confirmed.

In the past dogs were assigned next available of 75, 50 or 25 on off game and slicks depending upon what was actually declared treed, this was even during the course of the super slams that had a 2 minute countdown. The reason being that it is not up to a judge to determine what time a dog actually arrived at a tree it was not declared treed on, much of the time it is before time expires and for whatever reason the handler has choose not to tree in. With the enactment of no leash lock, shortened tree time and the countdown the way to make it run the smoothest without requiring complicated rules is for everything, leaving an exception of off game is to drop this one change and allow tree points to be deleted. Keeping the off game exception stays true to UKC's roots and delete would allow for the no leash lock to work successfully as intended. I realize the intent of the next available on coons was that if it is after time is up they should have been there faster and it also punishes the run around barking and covering dogs and upon turning in ballots no one knows exactly what is going to pass or not but with this 4 rule combination there is one that doesn't fit and this rule is it. Assigning 25 instead of a true next available still does not fix this issue of re-cutting to dogs that may be treed as close as the next tree over, there is a reason that where a no leash lock is utilized these points are deleted. We are at a crossroads here and have a one shot at getting it right this is the easiest and most simple solution, keep it uncomplicated. Something I do hope you all will consider.

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Allen / UKC
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Re: Re: Re: Re: My ?

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Something I do hope you all will consider. [/B]



It will be, no worries.

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Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA
NAT GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH PKC GCH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMI-FINALIST. 2016 UKC TOP 20. 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE. 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4. 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION. 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRAND NITE CHAMPION.
GRNITECH CH PKC CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION
SHACK'S REDNECK SHINE

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