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Bruce I am guilty as charged I am the worlds worst at getting the pups eating and useing that time to clean the pen where I got them all in one spot by time I know it it's already on like donkey kong and all I got is my hand to speak them with.

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Training a Tree Hound to obey commands is a necessity, even if the dog should never be required to obey such orders in actual night hunting. He must be taught to take orders with pride and not be insulted at your commands. There are few situations more disgusting than to give a dog an order and grit your teeth as he pays no attention to the command than if you would have remained silent.
Mr. Miller states he has purchased or placed many hounds in his kennels, and after having worked them only one hour. Can automatically tell that their biggest fault is their lack of initiative and motivation--a condition or attitude brought on by the lack of forced training by their owners. With such a hound, you first task is to catch him doing something wrong or failing to respond to a command. Just so the hound isn't in the dark and understands fairly well wha the situation is all about, you should take a hickory about the size of a lead pencil and wear it out on him. After admonishing this punishment, you should immediately tae the hood and chain him to a dog box or kennel and isolate him from the other dogs for a period of seven days. If he is a normal minded hounds the beginning of his schooling, the difference in his attitude toward his work will shock you.
Remember that the first word you say to the dog should be of a pleasant nature, especially when he is doing something that pleases you.
Dog Deserves Best Training,
One of the most positive rules Mr. Miller would recommend to any trainer is to abstain from any form of drinking while working with a dog. The reason is simple. You want your dog to put forth it's best efforts so you should be willing to put forth yours.
Mr. Miller emphasizes that young dogs will upset you and reminds you that they are young. You should be stern with them but stay focused on what they are doing right or wrong and not your anger or frustration with the situation. Every decision you make with your hound should come from a settled mind. Harsh mistreatment of a hound when it has done nothing wrong is the worse act a trainer can commit.
Mr. Miller feels it is a bond with the hound built on trust and if it isn't that affects the hound.
Dogs have complexes like humans.
Mr. Miller talks about dogs having their quirks and just because you hound licks your hand and wags its tail everything is all right. A handler has to see beyond that and be smart enough to gain the dogs confidence when training and take the dog to the next level. He goes on to say that if you have worked dogs for any length of time and haven't come up with one above average hound you may have left something out in either your selection process or training process. You may also be applying a step or two that should be left out of your training curriculum.

I am going to take a break from this for the next few days. I am going up to Jesup, Ga to the Paul Sheffield Memorial hunt and will be gone through Sunday. Hope everyone one has a good weekend and we will get into some more intense training when I get back. We still have a couple sections on Obedience training, then Mr. Miller gets to taking the dogs to the woods. I think it is important to realize that Mr. Miller spent a lot of time talking about the dogs brain and then basic obedience. In a nutshell he wants you to understand the dog is a living, thinking being and then because of the level which dogs think you become the ALPHA and instill solid training into your dog using the way dogs think and how the process learning situations.

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this will be a great post for all to read if i remeber right back in the 70s mr miller was hunting redbones i think he had a dog at stud he call millers valley woodpecker but i could be wrong

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Have a safe trip and hurry back I have enjoyed the reading

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quote:

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Originally posted by hillbilly56
this will be a great post for all to read if i remeber right back in the 70s mr miller was hunting redbones i think he had a dog at stud he call millers valley woodpecker but i could be wrong

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Yes Sir. This is a different Mr. Miller. Hope you enjoy it non the less.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Yes Sir. This is a different Mr. Miller. Hope you enjoy it non the less.

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Well what's the rest of the story ?

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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. ~~ Thomas Jefferson

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have"

Thomas Jefferson

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
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We are picking up on page 34. Make Hound Obey Command.
Mr. Miller as you will see talks about being stern and making the dog obey all commands. He starts out with an example of what NOT TO DO. The wrong way is to hunker down, sweet talk and beg your dog into coming to you---after having vainly commanded him to do so. This approach would attract the do to you, but would shatter all the training rules in an sound training program. Obedience between you and the dog at this point would be totally non-existent, and there would be no further basis to continue the training because of your lack of discipline, as well as the dogs's. He states that this is a but a simple example, but it creates a highly valuable thought that should be helpful in all stages of obedience schooling.
The right way to train a dog is to command him to obey an order--don't ask him. Always be in a position to enforce your command until you are reasonably certain your dog will obey.
Upon first starting a dog in obedience schooling, be absolutely sure you have chose the language that you want to use all the way through the training. Try to use as nearly the same tone of voice as possible thought the course, and attach an obedience collar on the dog, using a 100 foot rope that is small in diameter. The rope should be attached to the collar. NOTE: The obedience collar he is talking about is one of the older style collars that tightened on the dogs neck when pulled.
At the start of this particular exercise, you should have a helper available to hold the dog as you walk to the end of the rope as you walk to the end of the rope. You should then order the dog to come to you promptly at the instant you call his name and give the rope a hefty tug. Often, the dog will start walking toward you, then stop about halfway. You must then take up the slack and repeat the same procedure with a similar jerk. You must repeat this tactic a number of times the exact same way. Finally, when you have worked the dog a dozen or more times, you can continue without the helper.
You should make the dog sit, then back away slowly. If the dog tries to follow, simply bump his muzzle with the heel of your hand and place him back into his original position. At this point, you should back slowly to the end of the rope, carrying out your command.
After the dog has properly carried out this exercise numerous times, then move him close to the corner of a building, where you should place him. After placing him in the position, you should back around the corner, out of sight and wait a couple minutes and order him to come to you. Once in a great while, a light pat on his head is permissible when he come to you. But the petting should be used very sparingly and wisely so as not to give the dog the idea that he is coming for petting, rather than the command to do so. He must lean to obey.
The workouts listed above should only be performed two times a week. Preferably around sunup or sundown and should only last 15 minutes each. After the dog has performed satisfactorily in 20 sessions over a period of 10 weeks, you should move him into a fenced yard and work him without a collar. You should return to the collar only when the dog fouls up.
It would do well to remember that the very first command you are able to enforce on your dog puts you well on the road in gaining respect.
Once you have been successful in teaching a dog how to perform, the play it coon. don't be over anxious to try the hound under pressure, but put him through the course firmly and carefully after you are reasonably certain he will perform anytime, anywhere. The continued work you apply will take some fear out of him and will be processed in the final storehouse of his brain.
It is impossible to mention all the experiences you probably will encounter while participating in the actual hunting and training of a hound on tree game. Therefore, you simply must know the behavior pattern of your hound, and you must act according to judgement.
In teaching a pup to her, you should use a collar and a short rope. When commanding the pup to heel, you simply jerk him in behind you, calling out the command in much the same way as the order to come to you. With the rope on the pup, walk as far as you like and if he strays to one side or the other, repeat the order to heel, jerking him in behind you. After you get him lined up reasonably will in the performance of this exercise, have him heel several hundred feet, then turn around and order him to sit. At this point he will probably only pause, at which time you should grasp the rope about 12 inches from the collar and order the dog to sit while applying pressure on his hips. As you lift up the front part of his body with the rope, make him sit while you back away from him.
After the dog has sat for a few moments, order him to come to you. Continue until he will perform this command smoothly without the collar.

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While I get ready to move on to the next section. I will ask a question. I have been at this game for a while like many of you and we all have thoughts on how to accomplish things with our hounds.
Some you learned from experience and some learn from reading and then trying what you have read.
From reviewing this book, it has shown me that either when I read it back in the 70's a lot of information stuck with me or over the years I learned from experience what he wrote about is correct.

Here are some of the things he says that have stuck with me for 40 years.
1. Never give a dog a command you can't or don't expect it to obey.
2. Divide the litter so you don't have the dominant personality hinder the development of others.
3. Always be even tempered with dealing with your dogs.
4. He talked about the pup looking like you want it to look.
5. He kind of touched on genetics and my limited practical experience tends to agree with him.
6. Always try and end a hunt on a good note. If not get back out there as soon as possible and get it done right.
7. One last one and not sure we touched on it yet and maybe the most controversial thing he says. Allow the pup 7 days to have his brain absorb his last hunt. It is about the pups taking stuff into the first stage of his brain and moving it to the third stage, which is the store house.

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Yes you stated the 7 days for information to be absorbed or digested properly for the pup to learn.

Why do guys think it takes 7 days? This isn't the first time I've heard this. It might take a few days for everything to sink in properly. But I would think 7 days is almost too long before doing it again. I would think 3-5 would be plenty.

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Ive also been trying to find this series of books online. And I have found the first volume one but not 2&3. So if someone has this set and would be willing to sell it please let me know.

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Novicane65 my mind agrees with you on the 7 days seems to long. Thing is when I was a young man we had to drive about 60-90 miles to the woods. That meant we could only hunt Friday and Saturday nights. Once we got some closer hunting we hunted a little during the week and it seemed like there was something to the 7 day rest. This month I plan on hunting every night till I leave for SETWD's if the weather permits. So even though I think there is some merit to it. I don't think many people TODAY would even think of following that train of thought.

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Well I think they need time to filter what happened. And to learn. I often wonder if the reason some of these young dogs blow up is from too much hunting also. Or from a too heavy hand. I tried training a pair of redbone pups about 9-10 years ago now. And it didn't work well for me. Too much to handle with too little knowledge. Im not sure I can handle training one now either. I don't have real good patients for it. I'm fine with one that's just started putting it together. I like to finish them out. My buddy hates that part, and that's where his patients with a pup wears thin quick.
And with the type of work I do. I can't really take on a pup. I'm not home enough when I'm working. I don't think it's fair to the pup to do it. And winter time here isn't the best time to start one either. I'd like to train one so I can say I did it. But I can't justify it. I do have buddies that would hunt it for me to an extent. But kinda hard to ask someone to take on that responsibility also.

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quote:

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Originally posted by novicane65
Ive also been trying to find this series of books online. And I have found the first volume one but not 2&3. So if someone has this set and would be willing to sell it please let me know.

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quote:

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Originally posted by novicane65
Yes you stated the 7 days for information to be absorbed or digested properly for the pup to learn.

Why do guys think it takes 7 days? This isn't the first time I've heard this. It might take a few days for everything to sink in properly. But I would think 7 days is almost too long before doing it again. I would think 3-5 would be plenty.

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In the next section Mr. Miller talks about perfection from a Hound.
Mr. Miller states it is not unreasonable or unusual to expect perfection in a hound because we have a natural tendency to expect this quality form our own dogs.
It would take someone more intelligent that I to say whether or not a dog will ever reach perfection in his performance. I do believe, however, that if the hound ever did reach perfection, it would take a perfect man to train him. You can judge this statement as you see fit.
A dog's ability in many ways is governed by the tact and experience of the trainer. Probably the biggest hindrance to a dogs training is the lack of time spent in the woods. Another drawback occurs when the trainer bogs down in other work, begins to overlook the hounds shortcomings and delays improving on these weak points until a time that never seems to arrive.
Another hindrance to the training program is the fact that every hound is an individual in his own right, and must be introduced to every phase of training applicable to his own personality.
A few hounds are naturally gifted or born with the qualities, the make them top performers. This caliber of animal can elevate himself to the top of the training ladder in spite of his trainer. However, most hounds are trained and forced trained to do the work that comes natural to other dogs. The man who develops the largest number of top-performing dogs will be a qualified breeder and an experienced trainer with a sixth sense for foretelling the future of his hounds.
If you squandered 30 days on a dog in which there was no hope, six other such dogs would waste enough of your time to get one hound going on the right track in finishing himself.

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Mr. Miller shares his thoughts on What Makes a Hound Tick in this section.

You should never get to busy to run a hound back through the initial training exercises in order to keep him polished and assure his physical and mental conditioning. However, before I go any further. I would like to discus just what makes a hound tick.

It is fairly obvious what makes you and me tick. We have hearts which pump blood through our systems to keep us alive and alert. Dogs have the same circulatory system. Sometimes they become very happy and other times they may be saddened by a broken heart.

Perhaps the height of a dog's happiness is when the tailgate of the old truck is dropped. He is happy because he knows the hunt is about to start.

Then again, the height of a dog's sadness probably occurs when his master, whom he respects more that anyone else in the world, has to administer punishment for a wrongdoing.

A dog's brain controls his behavior, in that he is a great deal like a human. This thought brings to the trainer's mind a highly significant training rule: You can't just go around kick, stomping, knocking, slapping and rocking a dog and then expect the humiliated animal to respect you. Any measure of discipline or punishment should be rendered moderately and cautiously. What you instill in the dog at this point could ruin the dog or make him a champion performer.

The training tact you choose is your responsibility and you must bear the consequences.

Any just punishment is necessary when the dog has failed to obey his master. After administering this discipling, you emphatically shouldn't turn around and pet him to soothe over his feelings. Punishment in this manner would be in vain. Without displaying an overt gesture of friendship, you can let the hound know you are on his side. This can be accomplished in several ways.

First you any assist the hound through a difficult fence if necessary. The dog will probably bolt right on out , and as he hunts he will no doubt hold you in hight esteem because of your human act. If he knows what it will take to make you happy, then this is what he will be striving to accomplish throughout the course.

After things have been smoothed out between the two of you, and it becomes absolutely necessary, you may punish him again.

The advanced yard work of the course is crucial before the dog is ever introduced to a hunting situation. The working experience should eliminate the problems that ordinarily cause bad feelings between you and your dog that can hamper training.

Think Positive in Training.
When Mr. Miller thinks about what procedures a hound should be introduced to and in what pack he should be placed. The decision must be a positive and accurate one. The decision must also be based on the dog's previous performance and actions.
If you have any serious intentions of developing a positively good hound, you are going to have to shell out a good sum of money as well as utilize many positive steps in selecting and training this animal.
Dogs Transportation.
Mr. Miller talks about hauling your dog and doing it is a warm, dry box. The box should be free of any sharp edges or anything that can hurt the dog or make it uncomfortable.
You don't want the dog to harbor any ill feelings towards the dog box or truck.

Teaching a pup to load.
When you begin to teaching a pup how to load up, after he has been to the woods and few times, each time he is turned loose he will almost invariably scurry to the back of the pickup. If you are loading him and he rears up on the tailgate, you should slip your hand under his hind feet, cradle them in the palm of your hand and elevate him up into the dog box.
You should never permit a growling dog to harass another dog about to be loaded onto the the truck.
The truck and the tree are generally two places where you would likely encounter growling and fighting among dogs. not properly broken. It would do well to remember that of all places to whip a dog for disobedience, these two places should not even be considered, except under extreme conditions.
This part of training illustrates why obedience schooling is so vital before you ever hunt a hound.

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Bruce I agree a good trainer try's to get the most out of a dog with the least correction. Now I know sombodys going to say I can't believe this guy said this but every once in a while a problem starts and you have to take care of it right then I like you have methods I have used for years with good results that people would say would ruin a dog : exzample this young dog because of the other two dogs I was hunting with treeing style got to where he was face barking some what it amounted to was like you being really , really hungry and sombody trying to take a sandwich out of your hand what I looked at it was an opportunity because if you go to the hunts much believe me your going to draw dogs that might be worse so every time I heard him get loud I started toning him if that didn't work I sent the juice that was me telling him if you don't like it get out of the way somtimes it would be 5 minutes or so before he would go back to treeing but now I never hear a cross word if I messed him up he was no good to me the other way you got to think enough to know why the are doing what they are doing all three dogs are hauled together all fight coons together no problems other two run the tree and he liked his spot but like I said don't go hide your dog and avoid problems what ever problem they have address it they run deer hunt them in deer country ect do your home work

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Teaching a Dog to Hate Coon is the next thing Mr. Miller talks about and I wonder if he was with us today what he would think about the Genetics some of our dogs have. I personally believe many are born today Hating a Coon and just need some guidance into turning that Hate into being a Coondog.

Mr. Miller states teaching a hound can be tricky business, especially if you fail to comply with some basic instructions he list. To endeavor to accomplish this phase of training without a pet caged coon, training bag and scent stick, is like being in the banking business without any collateral.

Some trainers choose to use a lead coon. This is permissible but it is still a bit artificial since your track is ever present. The most sensible thing to do at this point is to you a specially treated scent stick, thus allowing the hide of the training varmint attached to the stick.

There are two reasons for practicing expediency in training hounds.
First you are training four or five dogs for your own enjoyment and you are making a living outside the training profession, you must utilize your limited time wisely. Secondly, if you are training hounds for a living, you don't have a lot of time because you must work a much larger number of hounds. This means you must keep your work time at a premium and not waste it.
Mr. Miller has used both training methods, using a scent stick and a lead coon and feels the scent stick works fine and makes up for the extra trouble of leading a coon.

He says there is only one time to start a pup and that is when he is in the most playful stages of his life. When a litter reaches 10 weeks of age, turn them out together.
When using a coon for the training purposes, you should keep a gunny sack in the cage for the animal to sleep on. You should tie the sack on a 100 foot long rope and if someone is handy, you can let him pull the sack in front of the pups for 10 minutes. A process that should motivate and excite them. After two passes, it is difficult to keep a complete litter from tearing into the sack. The pups, in their moment of frenzy, will only be fighting and playing with the sack, but occasionally you will notice a pup stop and very carefully sniff a certain area of the sack.

Don't Overload Your Pup
At this point in your training program, be ver careful not to tire your pups out because if they are driven to the point of exhaustion, they often fail to continue to show interest for several weeks or months.

When the pups have worked the sack 10 times to your satisfaction over a 20 day period, continue the training by placing a rope over a limb of a tree a few feet off the ground and pull the sack just out of the pups reach. If they bark a time or two that is perfectly alright. Just don't hold the sack out of reach so long that they loose attention.

When you have pulled the sack up out of reach and have dropped it a few times, you should pull it up again and round up all the pups. Return them to their separate runs. Never let them out except to work, and work them only twice a week. If you let the pups out and they decide they have greater interest even after they have romped the wire edge off and still refuse to work, you should return them to their kennel at once and discontinue all work of seven days. It is imperative to tease the pups a few times while they are in their kennel. In this way, their anxiety and desire to tackle the coon will remain fresh.
A whole litter will work better than on or two pups. When the pups have performed this phase of training to your satisfaction a number of times, put the coon in a training bag. Tie the sam sack on the bottom of the bag and pull up on it the same way, allowing the dogs to continue fighting the sack.
Let the pups find the coon on their own. You should work in the same manner as above, pulling the bag up to the limb, except the work time should be shortened to five minutes twice a week.
When the hounds are working this exercise to your satisfaction and you figure their minds are fairly well indoctrinated , leave them in there runs for one full week, refraining from all work.

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Tracking Scent
After you have exposed your pups to scent as described about you should keep them enclosed in pens for one week.
Then you can place all the pups in a wire enclosed kennel, where they can see the coon that is used for training purposes.
After you have teased the pups and they are al barking anxiously to get the coon, let them watch as you walk off 100 yards, carrying the coon and the drag scent stick. Have someone to turn the pups out, after which time they will dart toward you and the coon, but will soon become aware of the scent of the track. You should allow the dogs to battle the coon on an object of some kind out of reach of the pups for about 5 minutes. You must then return all the pups to their kennel immediately for a seven day breathing spell.
Mr. Miller runs this exercise 3 times and then starts to place the coon in a position above the dogs heads and he backs off and allows the pups to locate the coon.
His goal to to have each pup finish 10 tracks a half mile long buy the time they are eight months old. This completes the artificial schooling, except for a possible tack a month to keep them in shape. Depending on the progress in the wild. Mr. Miller is a firm believe that if the pups show weakness they should be returned to the pen and not worked for two weeks.

NO TIME FOR IDLENESS
A hound should never be allowed to loaf or be idle. I have found that there are only two places for him to spend his time--Either in the kennel or in the woods with a qualified trainer.
During the first trip to the woods, the trainer may take the whole litter with him, but he should also take along the most reliable and best natured hound, one that isn't especially fast on track.
His next step is to expose the pups using the older dog to coon. Some may work a track the older dog strikes and some may not. The same with treeing. When the older dog trees the coon some of the pups may tree with him and some may not. Draw the pups attention to the tree if necessary and tie the old dog back. He believes in knocking the coon out to the pups and use the old dog to encourage an encounter with the coon if necessary.
He reminds you to watch the pups and make sure none get aggressive over the coon and if they do, remind them you are the master.

SEPARATING PACK FOR COON TRACKING
After the coon treeing experience return all the pups to the kennels and absolutely refrain form exposing them to any work of any kind for 7 days. Then repeat this training phase once a week until all the pups are showing keen interest both on the track and tree.
You can begin separating the pack, taking an older experienced dog and one pup to the coon country, where both should be turned loose together. He feels that when the coon is treed you should tie the dogs back and knock it out and give it a 15 minute head start. Then turn the pup and old dog loose to have a hot track to run.

COON WORTH MORE ALIVE THAN DEAD
Remember these pups are now well started and you should give them every advantage possible for good nights of hunting. Avoid unfavorable weather conditions, high winds or frozen found. One hour hunting under these conditions can set a pup back as much as 30 days of training.

Here are some facts about coonhunting that bear repeating. In the early 1900's, there was practically no out of season hunting, with only 60 days open season. Also, it was not uncommon to hunt all night and never strike a coon.
Conditions such as Sundays, bad weather or sickness could cut one's season to 30 nights. You could figure a catch every other night of the season would give you 15 coons a year to help in the dog's training. In catching these coon dogs were securely held while the coons were shot dead. The trainer or hunter took every precaution to avoid making holes or even leaving blood stains on each coon pelt, because each pelt represented 10-18 days work. Thus only occasionally was a dog allowed to nuzzle the coon very lightly.
As it has been illustrated, it doesn't take a number of kills to make a dog. The coon is worth more to the dog alive than dead.
A wise practice to follow in hunting and training a hound is to draw a good sized map, marking the location of every coon you have left behind. When you have left 100 coons in trees, you then have a map worth $500, because most of those coon will be within an average dogs hunting range of where you leave them.
The map is priceless to a man training a number of dogs.

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