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Coal295
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2017
Location:
Posts: 157

Demanding accuracy

Just wanted everyone's thoughts on the subject for discussion sake: who would you say demands more accuracy from their hound overall- the pleasure hunter or the average competition hunter? Does pleasure hunting or competition hunting even have a bearing on it or does it just depend on the hunter involved?

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Old Post 01-13-2021 12:07 AM
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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2817

Answer to first question. Me

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Old Post 01-13-2021 04:25 AM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1468

Accuracy to us is extremely important, I absolutely Hate a dog that is not accurate!
My partner hunted in a very large hunt last week and on one cast a fella had a hound that he was proud of, said he had won a pile of money elsewhere, said “he makes trees”
The dog treed every 200 yds...blank
I don’t understand it?

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Old Post 01-13-2021 11:35 AM
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OLD TIMER
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1361

No circle points—

Tree points are awarded as always
BUT fall 10 points for every 5 minutes it takes to find coon.
If cast votes that they can’t find it ALL points are deleted.

Sure there will be some trees that had one that could not be found, but I bet there would be more empty trees that don’t get “circled”😉😉

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1952

I have seen both pleasure and competition hunters that wanted great accuracy and I seen others that had slick treers.
I feel that most hunters regardless of pleasure or competition hunter , once they have owned a good accurate honest coon treer nothing else will suit them. I feel the difference is some hunters can cull there trash and move on and some cannot . The one's that cannot cull there trash either loose interest or just live with it.

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Old Post 01-13-2021 02:19 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 4772

.

I think SERIOUS is the word that comes into play here. The man serious about having a top pleasure hound or a top competition hound. Understands that slick trees undermines what they are trying to accomplish. If you just want to walk to a lot of trees, have fun (if you call treeing nothing having fun) and find a few coon. Then there are a lot of dogs out there that will suit you and look good doing it. If your SERI0US about finding game in the tree and plus points on the score card. Then having a coon in a tree is a standard you have to learn to accept and settle for nothing less.

This game is a cruel one. It is very hard to have a hound you may love. it performs perfectly except it doesn't have game in the tree. Then have to decide it needs to leave your place. You have exhausted all your efforts to increase accuracy. Most cases it is a lack of your effort that allows this to happen. You can take 10 men and each one may have a different fault in their hound. You will find that fault is something they allowed to happen. Either because they didn't know how to correct it or didn't put forth the effort. Breeding and Genetics brings them into this world. Then the owner through Environment and proper Training takes them to the next level.

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Old Post 01-13-2021 02:46 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1468

Bruce you and I agree most all the time, but it makes me ponder genetics also, the hound was bred out of a hound that I think helped hurt the walker breed, but many loved and still love to this day.

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Old Post 01-13-2021 03:25 PM
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Preacher Tom
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 1012

Just want one more accurate than the one I have and he's pretty good. If I had my wishes it would be for one that never missed but I've never owned or seen one. I just pleasure hunt but hunt a lot.

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Old Post 01-13-2021 04:01 PM
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high ridge
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3118

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
I have seen both pleasure and competition hunters that wanted great accuracy and I seen others that had slick treers.
I feel that most hunters regardless of pleasure or competition hunter , once they have owned a good accurate honest coon treer nothing else will suit them. I feel the difference is some hunters can cull there trash and move on and some cannot . The one's that cannot cull there trash either loose interest or just live with it.



BINGO

I won’t spend entry fees on junk and I ain’t stumbling through the dark pleasure hunting junk
Accuracy is important to both groups.
The difference is a good pleasure dog may have some faults that cost points after it trees a coon. A good accurate comp dog has had some of those faults trained out.

BUT IN MY OPINION A TOP SHELF PLEASURE DOG IS A TOP SHELF WINNER.

Key is top shelf

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Old Post 01-13-2021 04:12 PM
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Coal295
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2017
Location:
Posts: 157

Accuracy

I asked the question to see what everyone's thoughts are- I cannot stand a slick treeing dog. I have owned very accurate in the past and once you know it exists its hard to settle for less. I hear some people say that accurate dogs won't gamble and won't show as many coon, but in my opinion the accurate dogs I have owned in my lifetime could accurately tree way more than the dog that takes a gamble. Maybe thats another topic all together though. That topic would probably be nose power/tracking ability.

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Old Post 01-13-2021 04:25 PM
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yadkinriver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1412

quote:
Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Bruce you and I agree most all the time, but it makes me ponder genetics also, the hound was bred out of a hound that I think helped hurt the walker breed, but many loved and still love to this day.
Words of wisdom

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Old Post 01-13-2021 05:35 PM
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Ed Hillenbrand
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2019
Location: Ohio
Posts: 36

accuracy

Slick trees are like working all week and then your paycheck bounces. Nobody likes it. One slick tree in a 60 minute hunt and you may as well go to the truck. Pleasure hunting is not fun when you walk a half mile and have see no fur.

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Old Post 01-13-2021 07:34 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 4904

Slick trees

I can not speak for anyone but myself, I will NOT hunt a dog that slick trees on a regular basis. The best may miss once in a while, I get that, but it better not happen often enough to make me doubt their accuracy. I hunt steep mountains and thin coons, I refuse to hunt a dog that's not accurate and I mean deadly accurate. I expect to see a coon every time and do not expect a bunch of den trees either. Dispite all the naysayers or folks that seem to expect dogs missing regularly I know better. Hunt these mountains and see how long you will tolerate a slick treeing idiot, NOT me. Dave. P. S. When I hunted Competition Hunts, I won with Accurate tree dogs, so competition or pleasure I demand ACCURACY.

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Old Post 01-14-2021 12:42 AM
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Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4893

Both. It depends on what a person likes. I have known pleasure hunters and competition hunters that loved a treedog so much being slick regularly didn't bother them.

Not my cup of tea but I seen it in both and the owners were real pleased with them.

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Old Post 01-14-2021 01:22 AM
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baker101
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2021
Location: Danville va
Posts: 15

I've owned and hunted hounds several years owed every breed they are I've never owned that perfect dog that dont miss that some people claim they have but if they are going to stay with me and eat my feed they better have more than they miss

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Old Post 01-14-2021 06:33 AM
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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 4772

.

Rip Wrote Both. It depends on what a person likes. I have known pleasure hunters and competition hunters that loved a treedog so much being slick regularly didn't bother them.

This is my point about in todays hounds it is more about environment and training than genetics. 50 years ago I could not say that. 40 years ago I could not say that and 30 years ago I could not say that. The genetics of our tree dogs was being formed and mixed and matched across lines. The genetics behind your dog was important if you wanted it to look up a tree. To say genetics mean nothing today would be foolish as it was the secret to success back then. It is also the foundation of success today. But just about every litter of UKC registered coonhounds have those genetics. Not like we are looking for some secret genetics that we were searching for 40 or 50 years ago. We are talking specifically the treeing genetics here. There are a bunch of other genetics that make a complete hound. But given the fact that most of our pups will tree. Given the fact that most tree too much. We have to figure out WHY. That is the importance of the environment and the trainer. Just like RIP said. Many are from the old school and seeing the dogs today tree, is something they didn't see in the past. They put those dogs on a pedestal. When in fact many of them need a switch on their behind. Once you get the pup it is up to you if your going to train it to be a slick tree dog or a dog that understands right from wrong. Empty trees are wrong, no matter how cool you think it looks. We are not going to use genetics to remove the treeing traits in our hounds unless we cross to a totally different non hound breed. But you can use common sense and a switch or bigger stick if you have to. OK you breeders and genetic guru's are saying if you breed accurate tree dogs you will have accurate tree dogs. Well if you breed red dogs you will have red dogs. But treeing and color are two different genetic beast. Even many he pups with accurate genetic ability and possibility in them. Are turned and trained into being a slick treeing dog but their handlers. The trainers put the emphasis on the tree and not the coon in the tree. The coon in the tree is the most important thing and your next pup will have that ability. Unless you handle him wrong and are more interested in just walking to a tree. If there is no coon there should be no fun at the tree for anyone. Especially the dog. You guys that totally believe in genetics, prove me wrong. You have bred tree dogs. Now breed COON TREEING dogs. For everyone in the litter that might actually want a live coon in a tree. There will be plenty that don't and their owner don't care either.

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Old Post 01-14-2021 12:26 PM
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N Williams
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2010
Location:
Posts: 1173

Why it’s so hard to find a accurate dog.

1. An Impatient public- they better be treeing before a year old
2. People settle for mediocrity to easy. Ukc reproducers list hurt the accuracy of dogs. Zeb 3, Zeb again, original Zeb, a lot of scuna River Dogs that produced accurate dogs did not fit the typical pup model the public was looking for.
3.lazy Coonhunter’s.- a elite competition coondog will put you in strange territory when you get dryholed. Most Coonhunter’s don’t like that. Rather them tree a squirrel in a hollow tree and call it a den
4. Most people breeding dogs never hunted with a accurate dog. If I don’t expect them to tree a coon no matter the circumstance I put them under I wouldn’t breed them.
5. Most Coonhunter’s don’t have a slick treeing absolute hate like I do. I’d rather mine run All night long as to go 1-4.
6. Accurate dogs tree because they have no choice. Breeders that understand this have accurate dogs.

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Old Post 01-14-2021 01:44 PM
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1952

N Williams has some valid points but I can add to them.
Poor tracking ability
Backtracking, both can be separate issues or not separate.
Training, who trains a dog has a lot to do with accuracy.
I don't agree that a dog should track for hours at least not in my area.That would be a Poor track dog even if he only trees when he has a coon. Slicks or hours of tracking and the dog is not a balanced dog.

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Old Post 01-14-2021 02:41 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1468

There are only a few lines that throw consistent accuracy and you have to guard it carefully, N. Williams is right on what he said👍🏼 All the rest are a box of chocolates, some will be accurate, some won’t.
If you watch it time and time again you will see they are born and not trained to be accurate, they are generally not one bark tree dogs, but can be.
They will locate then circle one time to make sure they are right. As a young dog they generally like to run more than they like to tree, been watching it for over 20 years 😊
Made a few crosses years ago with some top tree dog studs and watched the offspring go down in a single cross, became average in a hurry.
Thankfully I was able to cull and go back to the family lines, accurate lines are few and far between.

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Old Post 01-14-2021 03:22 PM
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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2817

I think it's 100% genetic. I'm hunting 2 females now. Full sisters, One is almost 5 , the other is 18 months. Both treed a coon first time in the woods and have been treeing them regularly ever since. In 4 years the older has treed on three trees I could have minused. Three persimmon
trees. I'm not bragging on these dogs. I had nothing to do with this. They were both given to me at 6 weeks old. The young one is just as accurate as the older one. They were born this way. They both have faults but slick treeing isn't one of them. And don't think they pass up coons when they're not sure.

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Old Post 01-14-2021 03:29 PM
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Dan&Ann
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Jacksonville NC
Posts: 116

A wise man said

This was said to me 30 years ago by a man who is dead now...Thad Howard from Kinston NC. " I try not to fall in Love with a sorry dog son"....I bought a few dogs from Mr. Howard in the 80's and he taught me a lot about coon dogs and what to look for and what to cull for! But in todays world of coon dog do we really have it figured out. If so why is the Frozen Semen of the old dogs so priceless. Sounds like we want to go back in time and probably rightly so. I just think more emphasis needs to be placed on the females. That would be the quickest way to improve the breeds. Great females are hard to find but good blooded brood females not so much. I don't think you can depend only on genetics. Cain and Able were brothers right?

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Old Post 01-14-2021 03:47 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 20625

What about dogs that slick tree a lot when young but learn to become very accurate as they get older?

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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2817

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
What about dogs that slick tree a lot when young but learn to become very accurate as they get older?
Always seemed opposite to me. But I've never tried correcting one for slick treeing. And never will.

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Old Post 01-14-2021 04:13 PM
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Preacher Tom
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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 1012

Since this is about accuracy, what is an accurate tree dog? 9 out of 10, 8 out of 10, 7 out of ten? I mean that you actually see the coon? Or is just that dog that because you have hunted him and know him you expect to see a coon every time he trees even though once in a while you won't?

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Old Post 01-14-2021 04:20 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 4772

.

{b]Always seemed opposite to me. But I've never tried correcting one for slick treeing. And never will.[/b]

It is more, not encouraging them to tree wrong. To many are guilty of this.

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