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droopy_dog2004
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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Morganton, NC
Posts: 1346

edwardfasteddy

I spoke over the weekend a couple different times with Mr Ed Hutzel who seems to have a head full of knowledge when it comes to this hound business! I was just wanting to share a few interesting pictures he emailed me.

5 direct daughters of Ch Grnitech River Bend Flag that Ed had


Ed with Nitech Yadkin River Crowder at Gordon Gilroys


One of Edís adds

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Old Post 03-16-2018 01:36 AM
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edwardfasteddy
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Registered: Dec 2011
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Back in the day, I was always looking at Pac-Man and after hunting with him, I figured if I got a dog off Pac that was half as good as him, I would be tickled to death. He had it all, Drifted a bad track like no other and could run it faster then any dog I had ever seen run a red hot corn field chase. On a hot coon he didn't run it to catch, he did catch a high percentage of them, as far as treeing, Well when Pac hit the Hardwood it sounded like he was being Shocked, Beat, and Red Hot poured down his back all at the same time, and he had the meat! A average dog that was worked on with a Tri tronics would her him treeing and thought he was being shocked or was in a trap and was afraid to go close to him, that is the kind of tree dog he was, Don't listen to half these coonhunters on what kind of dog he was, Pac was in more hunts then any 10 dogs, and was NEVER scratched for fighting.. Remember these are the FACTS.. HEHEHEHEHE!!!LOL!!

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JesseJ
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Wichita Falls,Tx
Posts: 429

FASTEDDY
SO DID YOU EVER GET ONE HALF AS GOOD? COONHUNTERS AROUND HERE ALWAYS THOUGHT HE HAD A SOME RUNNING WALKER BRED INTO HIM? THINK THEY WERE GOING OFF OF THE PICTURES OF HIM IN MAGAZINES? JesseJ

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edwardfasteddy
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Registered: Dec 2011
Location:
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When your breeding to a dog like Pac-Man it would be wishful thinking that you would get a dog like him, and it would be nuts to think you were going to get one that was better then him.... To answer your question, I had a good many Nite Champions and Grand Nite Champions off him that was close to being half as good but not as good as him. The River Bend Flag daughters were hard for him to dominate there genes, now that I look back, to get a dog like him it would have been best to bred something related to him, maybe a daughter..

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tripple river
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Registered: Jul 2008
Location: Eastern IA
Posts: 239

How did the started dogs off pac man and the lipper female turn out? I can only imagine how that cross would be advertised today those would be 10000$ pups

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Old Post 03-18-2018 06:01 PM
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edwardfasteddy
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Registered: Dec 2011
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Jason, Back in the day they did make crosses like that and they did work quite well, Big Thicket PJ was bred like that... I think Bellar owned him? I bred several daughters of Lipper to him that was fantastic. One Lipper female I had was off Lipper and a Gr, Nite Ch, named Newells Treeing Bess her sire was Merchants Buck. One that I remember I called Creeper was a Legend out in California that was used for Lion and Bear, He could wind a Lion 2 miles in a canyon off the truck, I asked the Hunter/ Guide how he knew it was that far and he said he would go in there two miles before he would strike the track. So I would say they did pretty good off the Lipper females... I mean I could go on and on and on about the ones I know of.......

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novicane65
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1555

How did your flag females reproduce?

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edwardfasteddy
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Registered: Dec 2011
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I bred 3 Lipper females to Pac and then 3 Flag female to him, I went back 3 more times with the Flag females for a total of 12 or 13 breedings in all and liked the Flags ones over Lipper.. Just My Opinion.....

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novicane65
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1555

Was that the only cross you tried with the flag females? I know how some people view flag bred dogs on here. But my experience has been that they're way more track dogs than tree dogs.


I've been curious why this line of dogs has not been more popular. I know some were flat footed, and most weren't the prettiest dogs.

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 4767

.

This is what I always find curious and interesting about coonhounds. The different opinions people whose knowledge I respect have on a line of dogs. I will be the first to admit, I have to make most my judgements on one or two dogs from a line because we are just not covered up with coonhounds down here in FL.

I have a friend that had a direct son of Flag. Seen many other hounds and even pup, show they had more tracking ability than he had. He was an excellent tree hound but missed more that he should.
I have a male with Riverbend in him that is half brother to Droopy's dog. He is an extremely hard hunter. Which makes up for his nose which isn't bad but not a grind the track out type of dog and many dogs can get a legit strike on him. Generally that doesn't matter as he is doing his own thing or finding the coon when they get hung up wrong.

Wilbur Hagan hunted a Pac dog in the Thomasville area of Ga for Mr. Miller. They called the hound "DOG". Excellent Hound. Drew him and Paul Sheffield's Dan dog together many a time and they would put on a clinic. Mr. Miller had a fine hound out of Pac.

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Kler Kry
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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 678

Pacman

quote:
Originally posted by edwardfasteddy
When your breeding to a dog like Pac-Man it would be wishful thinking that you would get a dog like him, and it would be nuts to think you were going to get one that was better then him.... To answer your question, I had a good many Nite Champions and Grand Nite Champions off him that was close to being half as good but not as good as him. The River Bend Flag daughters were hard for him to dominate there genes, now that I look back, to get a dog like him it would have been best to bred something related to him, maybe a daughter..


I discovered the Pacman dogs late in life, the last ten years. I judged and guided Pacman out of a UKC Zone at Elkhorn, WI in the 80s. And was impressed with Pacman! My Penney females reminds me of Pacman. The pups out of Penney and Rex go back to Pacman 13 times and were bred for performance not pedigree and it works to line breed it. I think the ability is recessively controlled.

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edwardfasteddy
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Registered: Dec 2011
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I've been curious why this line of dogs has not been more popular!

I would breed a Son of Pac-Man whos mother was one of my Flag daughters back to his aunts that were off Old Flag. These pups had it all and could be sold cheaper then the ones right off Pac. 3 to 4 hundred for pups and 6 to 8 hundred on 6 to 8 moth old started dogs. The ones right off Pac 5 to 6 hunderd for pups and 8 to 1500 on 6 to 8 month old started. River Bend Flag was so Big back in the day that the entire Southeastern Treeing Walker hand book was 98% dogs off Flag in it at Stud. From Pennsylvania to Georgia there was probably 100,000 coon hunters that lived, ate, and breathed RIVER BEND FLAG, Most of the coon hunters in the world live in the EAST, that is why they hold all the big hunts there. Grand American, Southeastern Tr. Walker Days, Winter Classic, Albany Ga. When the Flag dogs died out so did the coon hunters, they fell out of coon hunting like locusts fallen out of trees. River Bend Flag had 50 some Gr. Nite Champions and 100 Nite Champions back when the hunts were few and far between. Dogs from him did not slick tree, they had extremely good noses. Flat Rock Shena was a daughter of Old Flag and was the mother of Flat Rock Coma. Now you know the Rest OF THE STORY..... Any Another Questions..

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 20604

quote:
Originally posted by edwardfasteddy
.... Any Another Questions.....


Wasn't Shena's mother a Redbone?

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Kler Kry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 678

Pacman Bloodline

The reason that I didn't have Pacman dogs earlier in life was because I was raising a family and could only afford to keep a couple dogs. I liked the Roy Jackson line of Mack Twain dogs that I was hunting at the time.
I also listened to all the jealous lies being told about Russ Bellar. I have found Russ Bellar to be and a hard working man who I highly respect. One of my greatest regrets was not breeding my Jackson Queen female to Handsome Harry back in the 80s. I have had alot of people say that their Pacman dogs were the best they ever owned.
This is my opinion.

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edwardfasteddy
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Registered: Dec 2011
Location:
Posts: 650

I may have some. Penney was bred to Shep semen and also Psycho semen on the same day. She had 8 pups, 2 males and 6 females. DNA swabs were sent in and I should have results back before Walker Days. Does anyone have any pictures of Shep? These pups are bold, beautiful and tree for treats.

I can't see that Lumber dog on Photo bucket can you send me some pictures of your Shep pups?

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Old Post 03-19-2018 07:13 PM
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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 4904

Edwardfasteddy

I am impressed with your knowledge of the walker bloodlines. I hope you keep posting references to these dogs, as I enjoy your posts. Dave

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novicane65
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1555

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
This is what I always find curious and interesting about coonhounds. The different opinions people whose knowledge I respect have on a line of dogs. I will be the first to admit, I have to make most my judgements on one or two dogs from a line because we are just not covered up with coonhounds down here in FL.

I have a friend that had a direct son of Flag. Seen many other hounds and even pup, show they had more tracking ability than he had. He was an excellent tree hound but missed more that he should.
I have a male with Riverbend in him that is half brother to Droopy's dog. He is an extremely hard hunter. Which makes up for his nose which isn't bad but not a grind the track out type of dog and many dogs can get a legit strike on him. Generally that doesn't matter as he is doing his own thing or finding the coon when they get hung up wrong.

Wilbur Hagan hunted a Pac dog in the Thomasville area of Ga for Mr. Miller. They called the hound "DOG". Excellent Hound. Drew him and Paul Sheffield's Dan dog together many a time and they would put on a clinic. Mr. Miller had a fine hound out of Pac.




I can't tell you where the flag bred dogs got the nose and track speed from that I've hunted with then. I know slick trees aren't very common either. Take my old female, I've walked to 33 slick trees in 5 years. I wouldn't think that is too much tree. She has some faults but slicks, nose, hunt isn't on that list.

I've seen more wipeout dogs up here than flag bred. And there's only a handful that are still living. It takes for ever and 3 nights for them to look up. And the sophomore spring ss champ almost didn't live past 12 months. She never treed a coon until she was 13 months old. But at 14 months old she was as nice of young dog I've seen unsnapped. Her biggest strength was hunt. She had more electric therapy than most would ever give a dog. She needed it and still does. The wipeout dogs can be nice but I don't care too much for them. When a dog starts beating n banging a there's a term we use around here, wipeout mode.

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H. L. Meyer
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Registered: Sep 2003
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Just wondering

You stated you have only walked to 33 slick trees in 5 years just wondering how many coons have you treed in those 5 years?

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Old Post 03-20-2018 01:03 AM
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edwardfasteddy
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Registered: Dec 2011
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Like I said after Hurricane Hugo, North and South Carolina was hit bad, and that was about the same time all this breeding was going on and people trying to make money off pups was when the big SLICK TREEING EPIDEMIC started. Talk to anyone in the that area and they will tell you they weren't going to crawl through the damage of Hurricane Hugo to get to a slick treeing dog! That is one of the main reasons why coon hunting is not what it used to be, They need to get a National Ruining Coonhound Day established so you can walk up to some of these self proclaimed experts and modern day breeders and put your arm around them, and take the time to thank them, for ruining coonhunting for most of the hunters that used to live to hunt.. HEHEHEHEHE!!!!

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Old Post 03-20-2018 01:29 PM
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
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Posts: 10790

So Edward when you bred those chop mouth flag females to those long haired pacman don't do well in the southern 102 degree summers southern states what goal did you have in mind ?



Tar

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Old Post 03-20-2018 01:36 PM
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novicane65
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1555

Re: Just wondering

quote:
Originally posted by H. L. Meyer
You stated you have only walked to 33 slick trees in 5 years just wondering how many coons have you treed in those 5 years?


That part I haven't kept track of. I'll pm you more info if you like.

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edwardfasteddy
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Registered: Dec 2011
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Tar, That's for sure, there wasn't to many of them that won any bench shows, They were not the prettiest dogs I ever seen but they were the best. One thing for sure them chop mouthed, track drifting Flag dogs, that come treed sometimes without even a locate and Always have the coon, man them was the good old days. Or you could hunt with one of them Bawling track straddling, don't know which way the coon went, slick treeing Rattler dogs, There was a reason they never hunted him or Nailor in any major events. HEHEHEHEHEHE!!!LOLOLOL!!!

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Old Post 03-20-2018 03:33 PM
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yadkintar
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I knew you would like that one lol. Buuuuuut A.W Norman was a good friend of mine and that chop mouth came from stopper not flag !! And woooooo weeee if they got after a deer and you didn't get them stopped in ten minutes you might as well go home because it was going to be an all nighter lol.




Tar

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Old Post 03-20-2018 03:44 PM
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edwardfasteddy
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Someone must have told you about Flag dogs because there never was any flag dogs out in your area. If there was what dog was that I mean off Flag, can you name any? Everyone knew, everything is BIG and SLOOOOW in Texas! that's why they sent Rattler out there.. LOL...

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Old Post 03-20-2018 03:46 PM
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yadkintar
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Eddie your loosing it there was all kinds of flag dogs in Texas Delton hauled them in here !! Don't you remember Delton studding the Texas flag? A lot of pacman dogs to littermate to pacman grntch enochs sugar boy little 45 pound slick haired high tenor mouth dog lmbo. You know what I mean Vern you didn't have the market cornered by a long shot I hunted one for Delton out of pacman and a flag female called the Texas pacman Jene wolfenburger bought him I think he got run over good young dog I won a couple hunts with him. And log chain Leroy ball had him 20 miles from me flag tailed dogs on every corner.


You wasn't a dog jockey was you ?


Tar

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