Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

quote:

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Originally posted by Sgraves
Sir, I believe that would be a human problem not a dog problem. Me an you get tied up close together an you jump on me , there will be a problem. You people still don’t understand the concept do you. If you want to take the time an teach your dog to be a wuss an lay down an get his butt ate up so be it. It’s not a dog problem , it’s a people problem. If you were a newcomer to theses nitehunts an you brought a young coon treeing machine to one , not a mean bone in his body. Got treed off to himself an some chit eater came in jumped on him an he fought back. You mean to say scratch both dogs. Doesn’t make a bit of sense to me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by pamjohnson
here is what doesn't make sense. In this story you bring a nice young dog and than instead of being concerned with your young dog instead you don't want scratched so your going to to the tree an watch to see if your nice young hound or the other fellows gator looks like the aggressor. Than if he done his training correct either your nice young hound looks to be the aggressor or you have the privilege of cutting loose with this dog again because ya didn't see a dang thing. Now it is with out a doubt a people problem. I don't understand people is winning more important than anything and everything.
Should the handlers fight as well?
If we really think we have to see them fighting do we really need fighting rules at all?
After all if thay can't win the fight there a wuss dog and who needs that?

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 2154

quote:

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Originally posted by Sgraves
A dog only has 3 chances to get scratched than it’s done. If you want people that are new to this game to never come back start scratching innocent dogs that got caught up in a fight that another dog started. It just doesn’t make sense to hear a fight an scratch every dog there. People who know their dog is mean don’t care . They plan on what is gonna go down every time they cut the dog loose. One of the first things I was told when I started hunting these hunts was that I will have to deal with mean dogs. People will continue to hunt them. It doesn’t make any sense to punish a mans dog that he knows is not mean. You are so hung up on the fight in itself. I understand that, there will always be the fight . We will never stop the fight. Scratching all dogs will not solve the problem.

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Am done with this subject. Am not promoting a dog fight. Will not feed a mean dog. An have my own bullets. From the looks of the votes more are in favor of wanting to find out the real aggressor. Which is the right way. I say again so people want try to put words in my mouth. I will not tolerate a mean dog. I have no control over what another man breeds. If your to lazy to try an find out which dog in a hunt is causing the problem so be it. It still an will not make sense to me to scratch everything at the tree.

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

There is no doubt in my mind if some one new comes to a hunt and gets scratched for fighting he doesn't quit coming to the hunts because he got scratched. He quit coming because of the mean dogs.
Having to see the fight is like asking for arguments and very unhappy handlers that will be terrible upset with results that still won't suit them.
I don't think many people have thought about the side affects this will have.

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3369

quote:

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Originally posted by pamjohnson
There is no doubt in my mind if some one new comes to a hunt and gets scratched for fighting he doesn't quit coming to the hunts because he got scratched. He quit coming because of the mean dogs.
Having to see the fight is like asking for arguments and very unhappy handlers that will be terrible upset with results that still won't suit them.
I don't think many people have thought about the side affects this will have.

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Mine sounds like he’s killing something every time he gets treed. Doesn’t matter if he’s by himself or with dogs I’ve had cast run into trees trying to catch him fighting and he will always be standing in on place looking up the tree. Last year at the Zones they were trying to scratch me from 600 yards away for fighting and he was the only thing treed. All changing this rule will do is cut out on the dishonesty in cast. No different than changing the minus/scratch rule on off game to being seen doing it. As it stands right now you could be scratched in a NiteCh cast for running a deer when you have an exceptional track dog running a coon. If you say these rules aren’t gray areas and don’t have room for some serious cheating to go on you definitely haven’t competed at a high level very consistently. A slick handler will bend these rules to the breaking point to there advantage. If you truly believe these rules aren’t a problem get a couple of buddies together and come down and we will have a “MOCK HUNT” and I will put on a clinic for you. I wouldn’t ever do it in a cast but I promise I’m good enough to do a demonstration.

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Dalton Cummings
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Dalton changing this rule will do nothing for a gray area, slick handler, or dishonesty in general. The only way to not have rule breakers is not have rules.
2 fellows just made every point that needs made on this subject.

Dalton i realize that you and many other very serious competition hunters are very scared of what another handler may be able to pull off on a cast but changing this rule is not the answer to solve this problem . There really is no perfect set of rules to protect every innocent victim dog / handler.

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Registered: May 2008
Location: Gillett, Pa
Posts: 1876

changing the rule will just make the crooks smile by light breaking there dogs if you hear a fight and arrive to all being angels but 2 dogs are bleeding just who do you think was fighting ?

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

The innocent dog has a choice when attacked of either giving ground, fighting back, or leaving the tree. A lot of young dogs don't realize that they can backup and stay. They view it as fight or flight situation. My dogs first encounter with an aggressive dog is probably at a competition hunt as I won't knowing hunt with one.
When you hear a fight and discover bloody dogs it could be two aggressive dogs, but it could be that one dog refused to leave the tree and the innocent dog fought in self defense.

There isn't a perfect solution, but it is time to quit penalizing the innocent and identify the crooked judge and aggressive dog. And I don't just mean taking it to the Master Of Hounds. I encourage you to file a written report with UKC so that the parties in question have a record on file for when they do it again.

IF YOU NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION THEN ARE PROBABLY THE PROBLEM. Ken Risley

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kler Kry
The innocent dog has a choice when attacked of either giving ground, fighting back, or leaving the tree. A lot of young dogs don't realize that they can backup and stay. They view it as fight or flight situation. My dogs first encounter with an aggressive dog is probably at a competition hunt as I won't knowing hunt with one.
When you hear a fight and discover bloody dogs it could be two aggressive dogs, but it could be that one dog refused to leave the tree and the innocent dog fought in self defense.

There isn't a perfect solution, but it is time to quit penalizing the innocent and identify the crooked judge and aggressive dog. And I don't just mean taking it to the Master Of Hounds. I encourage you to file a written report with UKC so that the parties in question have a record on file for when they do it again. 👆👍

IF YOU NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION THEN ARE PROBABLY THE PROBLEM. Ken Risley

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

Ok say the rules change.
You fellows each be the judge with the hunt that was given on here with pat and Dan. MOCH HUNT if you will. Judge it.

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Registered: May 2008
Location: Gillett, Pa
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quote:

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Originally posted by Kler Kry
The innocent dog has a choice when attacked of either giving ground, fighting back, or leaving the tree. A lot of young dogs don't realize that they can backup and stay. They view it as fight or flight situation. My dogs first encounter with an aggressive dog is probably at a competition hunt as I won't knowing hunt with one.
When you hear a fight and discover bloody dogs it could be two aggressive dogs, but it could be that one dog refused to leave the tree and the innocent dog fought in self defense.

There isn't a perfect solution, but it is time to quit penalizing the innocent and identify the crooked judge and aggressive dog. And I don't just mean taking it to the Master Of Hounds. I encourage you to file a written report with UKC so that the parties in question have a record on file for when they do it again.

IF YOU NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION THEN ARE PROBABLY THE PROBLEM. Ken Risley

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You want to see more than a dog fight all you have to do is scratch the wrong guys dog for fighting without him seeing it. Being able to do that is honestly the most ignorant thing I’ve ever heard. I’ve been in as many or more cast than anyone commenting on this and I’ve only saw 3 sure enough rough dogs that UKC PKC and CHKC I’ve heard a little blowing going on at trees but nothing that would warrant a scratch. You guys that think that ROUGH dogs are a big problem with comp hunts are living in a fantasy land and probably don’t have a very good pressure tree dog. I’d be willing to bet that more dogs get scratched from a distance for being a radical tree dog that sounds rough than dogs that actually truly get scratched for fighting. It honestly blows my mind that people are actually in favor of keeping this rule the way it is.

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Dalton Cummings
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This is the most liberal sounding rule I’ve ever heard of in my life. I just imagine it going something like this. “I’m going to scratch your dog Because he’s a mean bully and it sounds to me like he’s picking on my poor dog in there” when in all honesty it probably went more like this. “Your dog has been shoving coons up our dogs butts all night so we are going to use this ridiculous out dated rule to get rid of you”
If you are out there to eliminate the competition without being 100% sure without a shadow of a doubt what’s going on then you are the problem with this sport. The ONLY WAY to be 100% sure what is happening is to see it. If you disagree your not only lying to All of us your lying to yourself. Say you have 2 dogs treed you hear a dog fight you have to scratch them both when there could be one rough sucker and one dog getting his butt whipped.
It honestly amazes me reading these arguments against this rule proposal because you have guys like Rock on here who is a known Lier and Cheater who was involved in one of the Worst panels and biggest scandals this sport has ever seen against the change. The fact that he doesn’t want to see this rule changed is enough for me to know that it needs it. To me scratching someone for something that you can’t see is no different than plussing a coon that isn’t there or circling a sure enough slick tree if you will do one your crooked enough to do the other. Leave it to the show dog people and the sure enough crooks to be against a rule that just about EVERY hard core comp hunter thinks needs some adjusting. This just blows my freaking mind.

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Dalton Cummings
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Dalton I think these ole boys use the ole mean dogs at every hunt just to have an excuse to stay home. I been in the game since 1979 and seen about 10 sure enough mean dogs and you wasent going to catch them at it. Every time somebody’s dog leaves a tree ole so and so was mean. In reality they left because their owner has been correcting them for slicks or off game !! I am more worried about ole deep and alone and what’s to eat at the clubhouse than I am a mean dog lol.


Tar

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

How about being a good enough trainer to make one back up and get out of the way. I don’t care if I go to two trees no matter who starts it and mine rolling with anouther dog he goes to doggie heaven simple as that.


To many to choose from to put up with that.



Tar

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Washington, NC
Posts: 3301

I've been reading this thread from the beginning and I'm sick of it! If your dog is not ill and ends up in a fight because another dog jumped it, shut up and take the scratch. GET THE ILL DOG WRITTEN UP!!! To many ill dogs don't get written up because some one is trying to "protect the innocent dog". Write then up and get them out of the game. If there are two dogs on the tree, no other dogs are near the tree, and a fight breaks out, SCRATCH THEM BOTH! Three or more dogs at the tree, fight must be seen. Dog backed up to the tree keeping the other dogs at bay, write it up!

If your dog is not ill then odds are they will never get written up again. Quit making excuses. I hate to write up the dog that got jumped but if it will get the aggressor IT'S WORTH IT!! And yes, I judge my own dogs by these rules.

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Registered: Feb 2012
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So if the rule was to change your saying on the tree fights only?

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Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
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quote:

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Originally posted by Team Mafia 2
It was handled correctly you can’t scratch a dog at the truck because it didn’t cause an interference. There has to be a show of Aggression AND an interference.

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Last edited by Pat Bizich on 06-22-2019 at 03:15 AM

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Pat yes you are correct but I have asked this same question to a long time field director and got a different answer. This is one reason this rule needs clarification. As of right now there is nothing stopping a non-hunting judge (we've had some doozies) from scratching all dogs 1-4 dogs in a cast from a far with no way of being 100% sure of what's going on. There could be blowing that is not a dog fight which is not scratchable unless interference has happened. They could be fighting a coon. Unless you see it you don't know a thing only suspect.
The next on the list is #13 scratch for fighting while off leash until the completion of hunt. So if some Male in the dog box greets a female by smelling her hind end and she takes it unkindly if #13 were to pass she would be scratched if off the leash not in the box or tangled up in a dog leash if someone ties their dog together on a ball hitch.

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: gillett PA
Posts: 546

doesn't UKC's policy on fighting include bench shows, water races and field trails as well as hunts? and doesn't it say scratched for fighting or attempting to fight?--if its a UKC policy wouldn't they have the say in what way this is handled?

the problem up my way is that and some judges just don't want to see it--even if its right in front of them--they don't want to write up a night hunt dog--I've heard them say they didn't see anything.--now in a field trail or swim race there are many eyes watching so they normally get wrote up as they should.

page 83 in the rule book I believe

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Registered: May 2004
Location: Sullivan IL.
Posts: 3060

If for dogs are treed you have to see it if 2dogs are treed send them home so they don't mess up some other dog BETTER YET if you are scratch for fighting you can not make us go back to the club and ruin our hunt just so you can cry in front of every one!!!

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
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quote:

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Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Pat yes you are correct but I have asked this same question to a long time field director and got a different answer. This is one reason this rule needs clarification. As of right now there is nothing stopping a non-hunting judge (we've had some doozies) from scratching all dogs 1-4 dogs in a cast from a far with no way of being 100% sure of what's going on. There could be blowing that is not a dog fight which is not scratchable unless interference has happened. They could be fighting a coon. Unless you see it you don't know a thing only suspect.
The next on the list is #13 scratch for fighting while off leash until the completion of hunt. So if some Male in the dog box greets a female by smelling her hind end and she takes it unkindly if #13 were to pass she would be scratched if off the leash not in the box or tangled up in a dog leash if someone ties their dog together on a ball hitch.

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Originally posted by pamjohnson
why change a rule for the worse to fix the wrong problem? You keep saying it yourself, the judge ( real doozie)
Even the fellows on here don't have the balls or knowledge to judge the MOCH HUNT. Yes boys scratch them both. No use standing there trying to figure out the aggressor. That's just clueless and stupid.

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