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Thanks Bruce, well said.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Sgraves, I will try to give you my viewpoint on a couple things you said.

1. Dog won't make much of a comp hound but is a meat dog. For a dog to be a meat dog it has to tree coon and have the coon in the tree. You also need your comp dog that does this. The meat dog can do a lot of things that would get it minus points in a hunt the a pleasure hunter may overlook.
Many pleasure hunters still walk hunt. Their dog hunts close and around them. That dog treeing coon would be a good meat dog and perhaps not a good comp dog. A dog that trees a bunch of coon but their mouth is weak. Might be the best for competition hunting. Again a good meat dog but their mouth holds it back in competition.
Now the sad side of the coin is a dog that really isn't that good of a meat dog, getting sold as one with the excuse it isn't the comp dog the person wanted but a heck of a meat dog. Thats a lie and one used all to often to sell a dog.

2. You talk about competition dogs being manmade and you want to see the breeding or genetics come out in a dog. Competition dogs need to be trained and handled every time they are hunted as if they are in a hunt. That doesn't make them man made. That gets them to conform by the rules. Their genetics just like a top meat dog is what takes them to the top. Just down a different path that the good meat dog takes. Actually a narrower path. More structured. The breeding and genetics needs to be in the upper class for a comp dog to excel. They need a top mouth that can be heard a long ways. You can get by with a meat dog that doesn't meet this standard. They need to have some handle on them. Both when leashed at the tree and also being led. They need to be able to respond to being called in. All these things a meat dog might have but don't need to have. Because it is not costing him minus points to loose a cast. Just causing the owner some aggravation and way to many owners put up with aggravation they don't need from a dog. Just because a dog is handled and trained to perform by a set of rules. Doesn't make it man made. It makes is like a diamond that has been polished. More enjoyable to look at and more valuable. I have a dog here right now I love. He is surly not a polished coonhound but one with plenty of coon in the trees. I will probably never take him to town or sell him. So why do all this fine tuning on him and get overheated while hunting, correcting him for some minor things I let him get away with. We just have fun. His genetics as a pleasure dog or a comp dog are there. His training and polishing are lacking. Because I have gotten lazy. LOL He gets in some real thick stuff. I just call him off the tree. In the past I would never, never call a dog off the tree. I would never turn a dog out of the box without a leash on him. I would never walk to a tree and not leash my dog right away and snap them to a sapling or something close by. I would never allow a dog to go any different other than where I pointed him. Or even let one think of running down a road a hundred yards. Quality dogs are quality dogs. They are trained dogs. Meat/Pleasure hunters, just let them do some things a serious comp hunter can't allow. But the genetics to get to the top of either category have to be there. The ones you find for sale that are advertised as good meat dogs and not good comp dogs. Probably are lacking in the genetic department also.

---

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Tar, I meant exactly what I said. You can twist it anyway you want to. There was nothing in the question about cheating in the hunts and titling dogs with false papers. Good honest people asking questions don't deserve all the doom and gloom they get here. So have fun and paint the picture black. Black lies matter.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Sgraves, I will try to give you my viewpoint on a couple things you said.

1. Dog won't make much of a comp hound but is a meat dog. For a dog to be a meat dog it has to tree coon and have the coon in the tree. You also need your comp dog that does this. The meat dog can do a lot of things that would get it minus points in a hunt the a pleasure hunter may overlook.
Many pleasure hunters still walk hunt. Their dog hunts close and around them. That dog treeing coon would be a good meat dog and perhaps not a good comp dog. A dog that trees a bunch of coon but their mouth is weak. Might be the best for competition hunting. Again a good meat dog but their mouth holds it back in competition.
Now the sad side of the coin is a dog that really isn't that good of a meat dog, getting sold as one with the excuse it isn't the comp dog the person wanted but a heck of a meat dog. Thats a lie and one used all to often to sell a dog.

2. You talk about competition dogs being manmade and you want to see the breeding or genetics come out in a dog. Competition dogs need to be trained and handled every time they are hunted as if they are in a hunt. That doesn't make them man made. That gets them to conform by the rules. Their genetics just like a top meat dog is what takes them to the top. Just down a different path that the good meat dog takes. Actually a narrower path. More structured. The breeding and genetics needs to be in the upper class for a comp dog to excel. They need a top mouth that can be heard a long ways. You can get by with a meat dog that doesn't meet this standard. They need to have some handle on them. Both when leashed at the tree and also being led. They need to be able to respond to being called in. All these things a meat dog might have but don't need to have. Because it is not costing him minus points to loose a cast. Just causing the owner some aggravation and way to many owners put up with aggravation they don't need from a dog. Just because a dog is handled and trained to perform by a set of rules. Doesn't make it man made. It makes is like a diamond that has been polished. More enjoyable to look at and more valuable. I have a dog here right now I love. He is surly not a polished coonhound but one with plenty of coon in the trees. I will probably never take him to town or sell him. So why do all this fine tuning on him and get overheated while hunting, correcting him for some minor things I let him get away with. We just have fun. His genetics as a pleasure dog or a comp dog are there. His training and polishing are lacking. Because I have gotten lazy. LOL He gets in some real thick stuff. I just call him off the tree. In the past I would never, never call a dog off the tree. I would never turn a dog out of the box without a leash on him. I would never walk to a tree and not leash my dog right away and snap them to a sapling or something close by. I would never allow a dog to go any different other than where I pointed him. Or even let one think of running down a road a hundred yards. Quality dogs are quality dogs. They are trained dogs. Meat/Pleasure hunters, just let them do some things a serious comp hunter can't allow. But the genetics to get to the top of either category have to be there. The ones you find for sale that are advertised as good meat dogs and not good comp dogs. Probably are lacking in the genetic department also.

---

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Tar, I meant exactly what I said. You can twist it anyway you want to. There was nothing in the question about cheating in the hunts and titling dogs with false papers. Good honest people asking questions don't deserve all the doom and gloom they get here. So have fun and paint the picture black. Black lies matter.

---

Last edited by yadkintar on 07-17-2020 at 10:12 AM

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Sgraves, I will try to give you my viewpoint on a couple things you said.

1. Dog won't make much of a comp hound but is a meat dog. For a dog to be a meat dog it has to tree coon and have the coon in the tree. You also need your comp dog that does this. The meat dog can do a lot of things that would get it minus points in a hunt the a pleasure hunter may overlook.
Many pleasure hunters still walk hunt. Their dog hunts close and around them. That dog treeing coon would be a good meat dog and perhaps not a good comp dog. A dog that trees a bunch of coon but their mouth is weak. Might be the best for competition hunting. Again a good meat dog but their mouth holds it back in competition.
Now the sad side of the coin is a dog that really isn't that good of a meat dog, getting sold as one with the excuse it isn't the comp dog the person wanted but a heck of a meat dog. Thats a lie and one used all to often to sell a dog.

2. You talk about competition dogs being manmade and you want to see the breeding or genetics come out in a dog. Competition dogs need to be trained and handled every time they are hunted as if they are in a hunt. That doesn't make them man made. That gets them to conform by the rules. Their genetics just like a top meat dog is what takes them to the top. Just down a different path that the good meat dog takes. Actually a narrower path. More structured. The breeding and genetics needs to be in the upper class for a comp dog to excel. They need a top mouth that can be heard a long ways. You can get by with a meat dog that doesn't meet this standard. They need to have some handle on them. Both when leashed at the tree and also being led. They need to be able to respond to being called in. All these things a meat dog might have but don't need to have. Because it is not costing him minus points to loose a cast. Just causing the owner some aggravation and way to many owners put up with aggravation they don't need from a dog. Just because a dog is handled and trained to perform by a set of rules. Doesn't make it man made. It makes is like a diamond that has been polished. More enjoyable to look at and more valuable. I have a dog here right now I love. He is surly not a polished coonhound but one with plenty of coon in the trees. I will probably never take him to town or sell him. So why do all this fine tuning on him and get overheated while hunting, correcting him for some minor things I let him get away with. We just have fun. His genetics as a pleasure dog or a comp dog are there. His training and polishing are lacking. Because I have gotten lazy. LOL He gets in some real thick stuff. I just call him off the tree. In the past I would never, never call a dog off the tree. I would never turn a dog out of the box without a leash on him. I would never walk to a tree and not leash my dog right away and snap them to a sapling or something close by. I would never allow a dog to go any different other than where I pointed him. Or even let one think of running down a road a hundred yards. Quality dogs are quality dogs. They are trained dogs. Meat/Pleasure hunters, just let them do some things a serious comp hunter can't allow. But the genetics to get to the top of either category have to be there. The ones you find for sale that are advertised as good meat dogs and not good comp dogs. Probably are lacking in the genetic department also.

---

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Tar there is not a dog born that is not taught something. Either because it needs it for their own safety or because it enhances the experience between the owner and the dog. Thing is most people enjoy their relationship with their dogs and don't view training the dog to perform and excel in a particular area as a negative thing. But you want to put a negative spin on it. Go right ahead. I guess most would say they would expect that from you.

I really don't understand. I will also say I am glad I don't understand. Why you would come on here in a post like you did last week and call out two people such as John Wick and Wild Willy that have done nothing but try to encourage and help people their whole life with understanding their dogs and training them.

Even if I don't agree with what they say at times. They deserve more respect than to be used for someone's entertainment to poke fun at on a public forum.

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To me they are one in the same, stay treed with a coon, get open on the ground, go hunting and come when called. I am primarily a pleasure hunter but make no mistake a top pleasure dog will also excel in competition. I refuse to shock a dog for backing a dog, if they aren’t doing something on their own where I live they better get a piece of the action. I don’t expect them to be alone, I expect them to be first. Turning 4 dogs loose and they go 4 different directions isn’t competition at all. Around 1985-1995 at any local hunt in the country you could see real deal coondogs that were stiff and those same dogs were hunted by guys who put up hides all winter with them, if the fur market would come back so would the better dogs. Very few people hunt enough to truly make a good one.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
[B]Tar there is not a dog born that is not taught something. Either because it needs it for their own safety or because it enhances the experience between the owner and the dog. Thing is most people enjoy their relationship with their dogs and don't view training the dog to perform and excel in a particular area as a negative thing. But you want to put a negative spin on it. Go right ahead. I guess most would say they would expect that from you.

I really don't understand. I will also say I am glad I don't understand. Why you would come on here in a post like you did last week and call out two people such as John Wick and Wild Willy that have done nothing but try to encourage and help people their whole life with understanding their dogs and training them.

Even if I don't agree with what they say at times. They deserve more respect than to be used for someone's entertainment to poke fun at on a public forum. [/B


That’s why I get paid the big bucks to create a diversion and I am good at it !!



Tar

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quote:

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Originally posted by MUSKY
To me they are one in the same, stay treed with a coon, get open on the ground, go hunting and come when called. I am primarily a pleasure hunter but make no mistake a top pleasure dog will also excel in competition. I refuse to shock a dog for backing a dog, if they aren’t doing something on their own where I live they better get a piece of the action. I don’t expect them to be alone, I expect them to be first. Turning 4 dogs loose and they go 4 different directions isn’t competition at all. Around 1985-1995 at any local hunt in the country you could see real deal coondogs that were stiff and those same dogs were hunted by guys who put up hides all winter with them, if the fur market would come back so would the better dogs. Very few people hunt enough to truly make a good one.

---

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I understand what Bruce an Tar is saying. I agree with both in some way. I grew up hunting dogs that hunted with the owner. Hunted in big circles so to speak. Older I get the more I miss a style dog like that. Yes them dogs had a handle on them. Knew their name when called. An didn’t blow by many coon.More less slept on the front porch. We didn’t have to teach them much, because they ran loose all the time. Was with us as much during the day as night. If their natural born ability didn’t come out they didn’t stay. Now days if you pay close attention to videos thats posted of people showing their dogs you can tell man has been involved with the dogs reaction. One sticks in my mind with a owner unleashing his dog. The dog was running sideways trying to get loose from leash. You could tell it had been switched or shocked in order to get gone. Competition an meat dogs are really one in the same, they both must tree coon. But a competition dog in my eyes even though has the natural ability from birth. It still has to be trained to a certain extent to fit the rules. It will always be that way until more emphasis is put on the actual dog rather than the handler doing most of the work trying to out handle his opponent.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
X2

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Back in the 60's I learned one important factor about training. Had plenty of dogs that would not hunt to my liking or actually not at all. You could correct them and make them leave you. But you can not correct one and make it hunt. Success in this game starts with Genetics and then moves to Environment. The owner controls the Environment. The owners standards based on his knowledge of what he expects out of a hound. Dictates how harsh that environment will be. I learned a long time ago if the environment has to be harsh for the do to respond. The genetics are probably not there and you need a different dog.

A good dog is a good dog no matter what label you hang on it. The top competition dogs in my opinion are just in an environment that is adjusted more to the rules. While the pleasure dogs are tuned to acting in a way that makes the owner happy.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 07-17-2020 at 03:39 PM

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I am not going to get in the comparisons between a meat dog and a pure completion dog but I will tell a story from my youth about 50 years ago.

My dad can a friend that had three dogs that would tree coons that we hunted with.
Two were crossed up hounds. One was a high tan with a black saddle with no white and the other was mostly red with some white. They were litter mates. He would use these in the old day money hunts. They would meet up and bet on there dogs. They basically use the same rules that UKC adopted years ago. They would hunt 4 hours. He won a lot of money with these dogs.

He also made a lot money with the other dog. She was a dog that looked like a smaller bulldog, brindle and white. Her ears were trimmed and had a bob tailed. Her name was Brandy and also the house dog. He used her during kill season. She never opened on track but would tree hard. He would wipe the coons out in area with this dog and sell the meat and hides. He would haul her in the back of his old international truck without a dog box. Sometimes she would bark a couple of times in the truck. When she did he would stop and tell her to go get him. You would not hear her again until she treed. The rest of the time he would drop and walk hunt her. She would hunt out several hundred yards.

I seen a lot coons with these dogs when I was kid.

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I too like a dog that hunts with me...if I’m moving along the dogs are circling around me...if I didn’t see dogs in a while I pulled my tracker and checked...If all dogs together...turn of tracker and checked a minute later...if moving they are running a track...if not moving they are bayed or have one caught...that was back before Garmin trackers...

These same dogs if I stopped moving they would keep going deeper but could be called in...when one struck and opened two or three times it brought the pack together and they would be rolling...these dogs hunted at a run and were excellent strike and track dogs and hunted at a good speed...

I knew what a good hunting dog was and knew they might be equaled and if they were I would gladly shake a mans hand because he had the dog power...

Something that really has had me thinking...why is it a dogs pedigree can be stacked with grand night champions, a few night champions and world champions yet the common talk is that they don’t produce???

My thoughts are that if they cannot reproduce themselves then there is something wrong with the system that titles them...these dogs should reproduce a decent percentage of likeness...

Redbones produce almost 100 percent red dogs...may slightly different shades of red...

Black n Tans produce Black and Tan...

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They can reproduce. But your last two sentences explains it.

Reproducing Black dogs or Reproducing Red dogs is something you can see or in other words Tangible. If you had a Red dog that threw all with dogs. It would be culled right away. Same with the black ones. Now producing a Coon Hound or any Hound/working dog you have to evaluate the results. When the results are Intangible and subjective to opinion. You end up with what we have today.
In the cow/calf industry they breed for what produces money. Weight gain is one of the biggest factors. Dairy farmers want milk production. That is a big factor. Anyone can weigh a calf and see if the genetics produces a fast growing calf. Anyone can measure a volume of milk and see if the cow is producing milk. The individuals or breeds that do are the ones bred. Because the goal is either weight or volume of milk. Tangible things that is no ones opinion but fact.

What is the easiest thing to breed for in our hounds. COLOR. In 3 generations you should establish a color pattern. Again a tangible thing that allows you to know which ones to breed and which ones not to breed if you want a specific color. Now we come to the intangible things our hounds have. You can't measure them but they are someones opinion. He looks good is an opinion depending on what color you like. He had a good mouth is an opinion depending one what you want one to sound like. He hunts hard is an opinion based on if you hunt an hour and hunt in one acre squares or if you hunt on night and hunt thousands of acres. He is a good track dog is an opinion of the person that has to have an idea what a good a good track dog really is. He is a good tree dog depends on someones opinion and if a coon needs to be in a tree for a dog to be known as a good tree dog. Not how much it barks. That is why we have such a large variation in the outcome of pups from a littler. If you could put their ability on a scale and measure it. You would know which ones to not breed. It is so simple, yet so complicated. You get what you breed. If the mom or dad has faults you don't like. Don't breed them because the pup you keep will haunt you with the same fault. Now here is the kicker. Line Breeding does work. The cattle industry and the swine industry proved that. But our dogs are chosen and bred using intangible qualities. It is in the eye of the breeder and way to many of them don't have a good eye. I have never been against line breeding but it doesn't work because we don't have enough real breeders that breed for results. Some breed for titles, some breed for convince. Some go the extra mile and breed for what they want. But your still at the mercy that they want the same thing you do and did their homework to get it.

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To understand how we got here. I really think you have to understand History. We have arrived at this great big pool of genetics our hounds have by distinct breeding patterns of the Breeders. Now first and foremost. Let me say that without a doubt there have been some dedicated breeders in each and every breed. Dedication is one thing. Having standards and living up to those standards even if it cost someone a few dollars is another thing. I think the dollar bill has clouded the eye of way to many breeder. Some it hasn't and they should be congratulated.

Now before you throw out all my information as nonsense. Just look at the top producers list that use to be published every month in the Bloodlines and now is on line. For over 50% of history. Our top male dogs were at 10% throwing pups that received a title. Now here is the kicker on that. The owners of those dogs realized the way to reach 10% and to get publicity. Was volume breeding. Many bred for numbers to get their stud recognized. If the cattle or swine industry produced 10% that the offspring lived up the standard of weight gain or milk production that was needed tp make money. They would have all been out of business. But NOT in the dog world. Lots of advertisement got your dog bred. Lots of pups got him recognized. Not because of quality and the pups living up to standards. Because 1 out of 10 did good and everyone wanted one. Because theirs was so sorry. The ones with the sorry females bred and 1 out of 10 made a good dog. So you weren't dealing with sound breed practices trying breed lower numbers to insure quality. You were breeding quantity. It was profitable and it would get you known if you bred a high number of females. Yes there have been some really good reproducing dogs. But their quality genes have been watered down with so many non reproducing females the water is cloudy at best. Thats our foundation. Can we expect to be anywhere other that where we are today. I personally have never had the time to devote to breeding dogs. I know what to expect from the market place and if they don't work out I am not disappointed. I just move on. That is actually why I am a "box of chocolate" type of guy. Even I know 100% that line breeding under strict control and dedication can improve things. I just have failed to see where that is happening at. Without strict control and dedication it produces a lot of the crazy pups I see today. So I will take my chance with "a box of chocolate" dog with a wider variation of genes. Even knowing that if it makes me a good dog it probably won't reproduce. I am interested more n results of the pup I am hunting than what it offers as a sire or dam and reproducing it's likeness. But what happens in this world is if you get that exceptional coonhound from a total outcross that isn't gong to come close to reproducing itself. You still going to breed it and your still going to try. Thats why our percentage results in the outcome of a litter are low. But the guys that truly survive and move to the top understand this. They have an eye for quality in a hound and the ability to find them. They also don't have any trouble moving on to another hound if the quality is not there in the finished product. Breeders have a problem moving on. They have someones name on them for 3 generations. Come hell or high water they will have that same name 3 generations later. Not because of quality. Because that is just how people are.

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I think what is missing out of most dogs currently is consistency. I know of very few dogs that are consistent. And by consistent I'm talking when you unsnap any of them you'll be looking at a coon most of the time. You can breed for certain traits and sometimes you get them, sometimes you don't. Also seems like there's some ingredients missing out of all of them.

Now there's a bunch of guys I know that will judge a dog by 1 night's performance. I try not do that, whether I own the dog or not. Some dogs can look like a million $ 1 night and fall apart the next 3 nights. I want the dog that looks okay most any night over the other type. Might not win every cast or buddy hunt but the dog will go out and tree coons.

I've heard so many times that bird dogs don't have the same issues but they do. Its just as hard to find a complete package in those breeds as coonhounds. But most of those people that say this have never seen a truely good dog go and point birds.

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Most folks have never seen a truly good dog regardless of sport, coon hunting, bird hunting, rabbit hunting, squirrel hunting or any other kind of hunting. Outstanding dogs are rare and most never get to see one operate, those of us who have been fortunate to see or own one can appreciate the difference between good and outstanding. Its like watching Michael Jordan vs a really good College player, it's no contest. Dave

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The best dogs don't always have outstanding performance, but still at a higher level than the rest.
The only thing harder to find than an outstanding dog is someone who is able to recognize it and acknowledge it. Ken Risley

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Bruce...I mentioned breeding for color because it is visual and easy unless one is color blind but even with that issue someone that isn’t can quickly advise...

And like you mentioned...a coon dog can mean many different things to different people...

And I brought up the stacked pedigree on what many so called top winning coon dogs...that many do not reproduce themselves...

I insinuated that the system is broke and I say it should be fixed or made better...

You mentioned some of the reasons and I agree...but just focusing on the stacked pedigree...

If the dog can not reproduce himself and if it happens regular enough then those champions in the pedigree probably shouldn’t of been champions because the proof is in the pudding...

It seems the issues are not the dogs or handlers as much as it is the system...Tweaking the system and the dogs and handlers will follow suit...

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Last edited by Reuben on 07-17-2020 at 11:25 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Reuben
Bruce...I mentioned breeding for color because it is visual and easy unless one is color blind but even with that issue someone that isn’t can quickly advise...

And like you mentioned...a coon dog can mean many different things to different people...

And I brought up the stacked pedigree on what many so called top winning coon dogs...that many do not reproduce themselves...

I insinuated that the system is broke and I say it should be fixed or made better...

You mentioned some of the reasons and I agree...but just focusing on the stacked pedigree...

If the dog can not reproduce himself and if it happens regular enough then those champions in the pedigree probably shouldn’t of been champions because the proof is in the pudding...

It seems the issues are not the dogs or handlers as much as it is the system...Tweaking the system and the dogs and handlers will follow suit...

---

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Posts: 416

A dog that is capable of treeing every coon in the block of woods it's hunted in is what is accurate to me the dog must be productive and tree coons up or down, a hot nosed pop up dog can look accurate and pretty good until it's hunted with a top end dog. Mr. Kler kry has hunted with and owned better dogs than most ,a common,average dog can be accurate it don't take much to tree coons folks

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

If a lot of folks will think they will remember what I am about to say I seen it more than most let’s say I was in the middle of it when I was younger. A lot of top winning competition dogs when they got some age on them they could be bought reasonable. The goal was to put over 100 pups on the ground pump up the ones that done somthing a sock that dog in to sombody with deep pockets. The reason for the over 100 pus was they had to have that many to be on the top reproducer list. If the dog stopped getting bred move him somewhere else next thing you know he has 1000 pups.



Tar

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5630

My definition of ACCURATE is a dog that produces coons not trees in the winter months Dec, Jan and Feb. Not a hot nosed pop up dog, but one that can take a cold track and show you the coon, if you don't have an accurate dog in the Winter, you just have a dog not a coon dog. Judge ACCURACY any way you want to, most know what they are feeding. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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