Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Do hounds have to have it to tree raccoons ?



Tar

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1657

Dang sure helps. Even makes the owner look like a better dog trainer.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Pendleton, IN
Posts: 1363

I’ll bite.

It’s overrated. I have had plenty of yard/kennel smart dogs that weren’t worth a flip treeing a coon. Conversely I’ve had dogs that didn’t seem to have a lick of sense consistently tree coon. Sometimes you get lucky and have coon treeing ability and sense/smarts, but one does not always beget the other.

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Registered: Sep 2018
Location: fortuna MO
Posts: 34

smart ones can do it quicker

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

We all judge smartness in a hound differently. Every thing a hound brings to the table that causes him to respond to what we want him to do. Can be seen as being smart or a natural. Some set up test for pups to see how they handle an obistical course. I have seen pup come to an open gate and get hung up on the gate when if it went one foot to the right it could go around the gate. Could label that one not to smart. But in most cases that doesnt equate to a better dog in the end. One thing that is the difference in dog trainers is the amount of motivation we need to train a hound. What we see in the hound. The hound gives us that motivation and we classify it as they are smart, they are Loving, they want to learn, they like treats. We want ti see something to like and build on. While we think we are training them. They are training us. Great to have a responsive hound. I dont care if it is classified as smart or dumb. A lot of dumb things we think our pups are doing is because of a poor environment we place them in and the spur of the moment training that is not constant and evenly applied.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Can a dog be too smart?

Are some dogs smarter that their owners?

Do some dogs train their owners?

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5823

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Can a dog be too smart?

Are some dogs smarter that their owners?

Do some dogs train their owners?

---

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1911

I believe a well rounded and intelligent hound needs to be the total package...Physically and genetically...genetics includes intelligence...

A super cold nosed hound that has a one track mind wouldn’t work as a competition dog...But if all else lines up he has the potential to make a great cold trailing lion hound that only takes a faint trace of line scent to stay hooked on track...

You take that competition coondog and try to make your lead cat dog out in the Arizona desert and you would cull him...but as a competition coonhound he might be the next world champion...

So both these dogs might be described as intelligent hounds in their line of game they were bred to hunt...and culls hunting the wrong game in the different style of hunting...

There is definitely a lot to discuss when we talk about hunting dog intelligence...hopefully many will give their thoughts on this subject...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: north ala.
Posts: 902

First thing you have to do is decide if natural ability and intelligence are two different things. I know some people that have a natural ability to walk and talk and even hold down a job and do as they are told but still be dumb as a box of rocks! I figure dogs are probably the same way.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

I know some people that are highly intelligent but don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain. Just look at Einstein.
Are there "smart" dogs and "intelligent" dogs? Just like some people have "street smarts" but aren't very intelligent, some dogs have "coon sense" but don't seem to be very intelligent.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: north ala.
Posts: 902

Some dogs seem to have a one track mind and anything else confuses them and you can't teach them anything else.

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5637

What's really dumb is applying human concepts and ideas to animals. Our concepts and ideas do not apply to animals in the same way the apply to humans. Instinct or natural ability as some call it, is way more powerful that taught concepts. Rueben post of using the same dog in 2 different situations, 1 working out very good and 1 failing is a prime example of man failing not the dog. Yes, dogs can be trained to do things we want, but what we want has to be comparable with the animals innate ability. Knowing what a animal can do and can not do is a burden on the trainer who has to know what they are dealing with. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Jul 2015
Location: mo
Posts: 749

Doesn't matter how intelligent the hound is if the owner or handler is dumber than the dog. Talked to a guy the other day about dogs... Should have just talked to my dogs, I would have learned more.

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5637

There you have it, the PROBLEM often times is the handlers lack of knowledge about the animal they are trying to train. Top trainers are the ones that know the animals they are training and excel in getting the best natural ability out of that animal. Developing natural talent is way different than trying to impose a desired result that the animal is not fully capable of doing. When you see the best in ANY ANIMAL, YOU ARE SEEING THAT ANIMALS NATURAL ABILITIES, not some man made idea if what the animal should be. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

Without desire the highest IQ dog is worthless. Just like your fellow workers. There is nothing more frustrating to me as high skill/low will.
I thoroughly enjoy working with a dog with high IQ with skill and a high desire to please.

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5637

I agree, the key is being able to recognize these qualities in a animal and giving them the best opportunity to develope and excel. That separates the trainers. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

I talked to a fellow the other day that was a prime example.
He said he had a pup that was so smart at just 5 or 6 months old it was using trees to help it climb up out of it's pen. As soon as he was done telling me that I said my young almost 2 year old dog was so smart he has never climbed over his 4 foot pen to get out.

It's used as a line to sell pups or a million other sales pitches. Some of the very best dogs I have been in the woods with before a hunt the handler told me there dog was dumber than a box of rocks. After the hunt you understood the dog did his own bragging.

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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 1110

Really don't know the answer but I've never had a good dog that I thought was dumb.

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Tom Wood

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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1074

We had a gyp that was a coon treeing machine that didnt have the sense god gave a goose. Jumped in her crap, barked all the time, jerked you all over on the leash, wouldn't load (and when she did she'd barrel out and knock you over). Won quite a bit of money and made a Gr Nt at 2 yrs old.
Hated everything about her except the natural coon treeing ability she posessed.

One night I watched her throw her nose up, cut into the wind, and run right off a 20 foot bank. She got up and treed that coon without ever putting her nose on the ground. There was very little intelligence exhibited there, but she sure treed that coon...

Last edited by Cory Highfill on 05-24-2020 at 12:38 AM

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5637

That's a prime example of a animal that's doing what it does by natural instinct and the rest is us judging the animal by our human standards. Natural instincts are not man made, they come natural. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1074

You're exactly right Dave, and to be honest until you pointed it out I think I was judging that particular incident with human standards. Her nose went to that coon and the rest of her followed it. She didn't care that she fell off that bank, and she wasn't embarrassed in front of the other dogs when she did it. If I'd walked off that bank my pride would have taken a hit and my buddies would still be laughing.
But a dog like her that was three years old and never figured out how to be civil on a leash was lacking in some aspects basic intelligence, plain and simple. She had alot of good traits that can't really be taught, and some bad ones that her limited intellect couldn't overcome.

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5637

Lol. Its easy to judge animals with a human take on things, but it does not mean much to do so. We CAN NOT hold animals to our human standards. Animals operate on natural instincts not what or how we want them to operate. We CAN modify some of these instincts with proper training, but we can not eliminate them. There are many examples of natural instincts that come into play, where a animal just knows what to do the very first time they encounter a situation, they do not have to be taught, they already know how to react. Humans do not have these built in instincts or certainly not on the level that animals have. Knowing all one can know about the animal let's us know what to expect naturally. Judging a animal with human expectations or desires may set one up for disappointment when the animal acts naturally as they most certainly will. Obedience training can be a valuable asset to a dog, but hunting skills are ingrained and can not be taught. Some folks may think they are teaching a dog hunting skills, unfortunately they are not. All we can do is hone what is already there, if it's not there naturally we CAN NEVER put it there. A smart dog with natural ability can sure make a poor handler look good, a dog without natural ability can sure make a great handler look poorly. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1911

quote:

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Originally posted by Kler Kry
Without desire the highest IQ dog is worthless. Just like your fellow workers. There is nothing more frustrating to me as high skill/low will.
I thoroughly enjoy working with a dog with high IQ with skill and a high desire to please.

---

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1911

How do we gauge intelligence?
I always will say this...when I don’t know...then I can do one of two things...go to defensive or offensive mode...and when it comes to dogs the best defense is a good offense...offensive mode is what it is...

Below is a testing example for nose and hopefully observe it to be as natural ability;


Testing for nose in different ways and I am using 2 pups as examples in trying to keep it short...

After 6 training sessions and scenarios one puppy winded naturally and the other didn’t even though he learned the routine quickly...the puppy that winded naturally always found around 2/3’s of the treats hidden in the grass even though both cast very well and looped around searching at a good rate of speed...they both use their noses very well off of wind currents to find...

Not looking at any other variables...just nose and analyzing what we have seen so far...the puppy that winded naturally also found more treats...so it makes sense that he is the better of the two and past experiences tell me he is...

While both pups could make good hunting dogs I am looking for the best...the reasons are to select the best hunting dog and that includes selecting for natural ability ...and one day if all lines up right using him for breedIng...natural ability begets more natural ability...

More analysis or theory...while both pups learned to wind and find proving training or exposure to conditions is important...however, the fact is there that one dog as a puppy was consistently better than the other...Is it intelligence that make him better? or is it nose? I believe it is a combination of things when combined together can then be considered to be intelligence...

So what could be the final difference in these two hunting dogs at three years of age? The example below should make it very clear...I see this in hog dogs...one dog gets a whiff of hog scent and gos to it while the others don’t even have a clue...sometimes as handlers we assist if it is coming from far away...after all they are just dogs...

The two dogs are casted out and they range out hunting and both aro looking good...but very thin coon in the area that is being hunted...wind conditions are pretty good...both dogs have covered some ground...a lone coon is out about half a mile deep and is walking along a creek bank...at a quarter mile from the coon trail the dog that tested better as a pup for nose picks up a weak coon scent ...not much but enough to trigger the brain to say...switch gears now and let’s go hit that coon track and get that coon treed...

The other dogs brain hasn’t clicked yet because the coon scent isn’t strong enough just yet for his trigger to trip...

That scenario is one of the differences between a good hunting dog and a better hunting dog...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1911

How do we gauge intelligence?
I always will say this...when I don’t know...then I can do one of two things...go to defensive or offensive mode...and when it comes to dogs the best defense is a good offense...offensive mode is what it is...

Below is a testing example for nose and hopefully observe it to be as natural ability;


Testing for nose in different ways and I am using 2 pups as examples in trying to keep it short...

After 6 training sessions and scenarios one puppy winded naturally and the other didn’t even though he learned the routine quickly...the puppy that winded naturally always found around 2/3’s of the treats hidden in the grass even though both cast very well and looped around searching at a good rate of speed...they both use their noses very well off of wind currents to find...

Not looking at any other variables...just nose and analyzing what we have seen so far...the puppy that winded naturally also found more treats...so it makes sense that he is the better of the two and past experiences tell me he is...

While both pups could make good hunting dogs I am looking for the best...the reasons are to select the best hunting dog and that includes selecting for natural ability ...and one day if all lines up right using him for breedIng...natural ability begets more natural ability...

More analysis or theory...while both pups learned to wind and find proving training or exposure to conditions is important...however, the fact is there that one dog as a puppy was consistently better than the other...Is it intelligence that make him better? or is it nose? I believe it is a combination of things when combined together can then be considered to be intelligence...

So what could be the final difference in these two hunting dogs at three years of age? The example below should make it very clear...I see this in hog dogs...one dog gets a whiff of hog scent and gos to it while the others don’t even have a clue...sometimes as handlers we assist if it is coming from far away...after all they are just dogs...

The two dogs are casted out and they range out hunting and both aro looking good...but very thin coon in the area that is being hunted...wind conditions are pretty good...both dogs have covered some ground...a lone coon is out about half a mile deep and is walking along a creek bank...at a quarter mile from the coon trail the dog that tested better as a pup for nose picks up a weak coon scent ...not much but enough to trigger the brain to say...switch gears now and let’s go hit that coon track and get that coon treed...

The other dogs brain hasn’t clicked yet because the coon scent isn’t strong enough just yet for his trigger to trip...

That scenario is one of the differences between a good hunting dog and a better hunting dog...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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