Registered: Jun 2004
Location:
Posts: 684

Thanks Mr. Cummings I’ll be in touch

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Registered: Jun 2004
Location:
Posts: 684

Thanks Mr. Cummings I’ll be in touch

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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: batsville ark
Posts: 1110

a all grand pedigree only tells you that every dog in it won 8 cast in its life time . nothing more nothing less .lol it tells you nothing about the quality of dogs that were in the cast they won . how many plus points v.s. circle . what hunting style they posses . could be babblers slick treeing fools mean as the dickens back packing me two errs our deep and a loners . lol cold nose hot nose. unless the sire or dam have similar dominate traits and the the ability pass them to the offspring pups from the same litter will be as different as night to day .

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Or if they was sent half ways across the USA to be titled when they came home they was a grntch it was majic !!! Not to be hunted again lol.




One that sold for $50,000 first hunt after titled treed a possum in 5 minutes and was retired lol.



Tar

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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Paragon IN
Posts: 1099

Perhaps I'm in the minority these days, but an all Grand pedigree impresses the heck out of me. Most of those dogs in a 3 generation pedigree were Granded by different people, so the slick handler argument kind of goes out the window. It means there aren't any weak links and the people behind the dogs did more than brag about their dogs abilities, they went out there, put them in competition and proved they were a step above the average dog tied out behind the barn. Sure doesn't mean pups from them are a sure thing, but sure seems pups from an all Grand litter have an above chance of being above average.

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Sheppard's Northern Blue's
Home of UKC GR NT CH, PKC CH
2 time world finalist, 10th overall and high scoring Bluetick of the 2010 UKC World Coonhound Championship
NASHOBA VALLEY PIAZON, (RIP)
his littermate brother
UKC NT CH SHEPPARDS NORTHERN
BLUE LONER (RIP)
UKC GR NT CH RATTLERS BLUE SKY (RIP)
UKC Gr NT CH, PKC Ch Sheppard's Northern Blue Abbie, (PiazonxSky) UKC GR NT CH 'pr' Sheppards Northern Blue Punkin (PiazonXAlice) High scoring Bluetick of the 2015 (50th anniversary) Grand American, 2017 National Grand Nite Champion of breed, 2017 BBOA zone 4 Nite hunt dog of the year. Queen of hunt on 2019 Grand National Bluetick Reunion, 5th place and High Scoring Bluetick of 2019 UKC world Nite hunt Championship, 2019 Triple Crown Winner.
UKC GR NT CH 'pr' Mckintosh's Blue Flame Chopper
Gr Nt Ch Sheppards Northern Blue Goomba (Piazon X Dizzie) 14th place 2017 UKC world coon hound championship 100 purina point cast wins in 2018
and several other blueticks of lesser accomplishments

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:

---

Originally posted by Surveyor
Perhaps I'm in the minority these days, but an all Grand pedigree impresses the heck out of me. Most of those dogs in a 3 generation pedigree were Granded by different people, so the slick handler argument kind of goes out the window. It means there aren't any weak links and the people behind the dogs did more than brag about their dogs abilities, they went out there, put them in competition and proved they were a step above the average dog tied out behind the barn. Sure doesn't mean pups from them are a sure thing, but sure seems pups from an all Grand litter have an above chance of being above average.

---

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Surveyor
Perhaps I'm in the minority these days, but an all Grand pedigree impresses the heck out of me. Most of those dogs in a 3 generation pedigree were Granded by different people, so the slick handler argument kind of goes out the window. It means there aren't any weak links and the people behind the dogs did more than brag about their dogs abilities, they went out there, put them in competition and proved they were a step above the average dog tied out behind the barn. Sure doesn't mean pups from them are a sure thing, but sure seems pups from an all Grand litter have an above chance of being above average.

---

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:

---

Originally posted by Surveyor
Perhaps I'm in the minority these days, but an all Grand pedigree impresses the heck out of me. Most of those dogs in a 3 generation pedigree were Granded by different people, so the slick handler argument kind of goes out the window. It means there aren't any weak links and the people behind the dogs did more than brag about their dogs abilities, they went out there, put them in competition and proved they were a step above the average dog tied out behind the barn. Sure doesn't mean pups from them are a sure thing, but sure seems pups from an all Grand litter have an above chance of being above average.

---

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

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Registered: Jun 2018
Location: Lafayette Georgia
Posts: 190

I remember taking my spiderman dog to his 1st hunt. judge said Allgrand Spiderman, I said that's his name. A couple minutes later he said them allgrand dogs will tree on a fence post. Thiers treed and it was slick! lol Needless to say it went from that to dam we gotta hunt with spider again!! 😁It was priceless

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GR.NT.CH WOODARDS ALLGRAND SPIDERMAN R.I.P
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Pr.Woodards Late Night Trix

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Jackson, MO
Posts: 778

Two big factors that drove the all grand craze were Rat Attack and Stylish Harry. They were the two best sires of their time and they both threw all grand litters. I don't know of anything alive today, all grand or not, that reproduces as well as either of these sires.


A second factor is supply and demand. There were not enough females at the time that could throw all grand to meet the demand. Once the supply met or exceeded the demand the price of the pups dropped so the people who owned those females were less likely to breed them. I know I skip breeding a couple top females regularly because there isn't enough money in it to justify laying my female up to raise a litter instead of hunting her.


Another part of the problem was people breeding to all grand dogs that were not top reproducers. This was done many times to get an extra generation of all grands instead of breeding to a proven sire with less generations of grands. When it became more important to breed to a 6 generation all grand instead of the best reproducer it hurt the quality of the pups.


I would not breed to a sire that had dogs in its up close pedigree that hadn't won anything. It would be my luck the pups would take after the sorry ones.

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Travis Brown
brownt@capetigers.com
573-579-3853
Home of :
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Peggy 4/91-1/02
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Little Peg 6/98-3/08
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Haley 8/02-11/13
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Taylor 3/05-11/17
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Rotten 10/08-2/13
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Midge 12/10-1/21
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Jessie 4/14-
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Lilly 5/19-

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Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 1009

The most common misconception is : Dogs that are Grand or All Grand will reproduce well and are coondogs, and dogs that arent put in hunts or have outstanding papers are sorry and wont reproduce..

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Shane

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Jackson, MO
Posts: 778

Here is an interesting set of facts to make one think there is something to the All Grands making better reproducers. This is the top 10 historical treeing walker male reproducers over the last 25 years according to August CB.
1. Rat Attack
2. Trackman
3. Stylish Harry
4. Bone Collector
5. Sunrise
6. Insane Cain
7. Mojo
8. Stylish Jake
9. Fred
10. Cutter

6 of those 10 would throw a 3 generation or more all grand pedigree or 60%. The All Grands make up 60% of the best treeing walker male reproducers for the last 25 years. I doubt all grands would even be 5% of all registered treeing walker coonhounds over the last 25 years. Those numbers should be tough for the doubters to explain.

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Travis Brown
brownt@capetigers.com
573-579-3853
Home of :
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Peggy 4/91-1/02
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Little Peg 6/98-3/08
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Haley 8/02-11/13
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Taylor 3/05-11/17
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Rotten 10/08-2/13
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Midge 12/10-1/21
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Jessie 4/14-
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Lilly 5/19-

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

All those dogs were bred to some of the best females in the country. All those dogs through their share of duds just like your garden variety dog in somebody's back yard. Any dog with 1500 and above pups should reproduce some good dogs. Some of those on that list reproduced pups that had faults a pleasure hunter would cull them for jmo.




Tar

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Jackson, MO
Posts: 778

The top ten current reproducers according to August CB. Only 100 pups required and sire 12 or younger.
1. Scar
2. Moe
3. Moby
4. Bone Collector
5. Drum
6. Mojo
7. Cain
8. X-Pectations
9. Jiggs
10. Reezen

7 out of 10 will throw 3 generation or more all grand or 70%. Hard to argue with 70% of top reproducers being all grand when they only make up probably 5% of all walker coonhounds. Not opinion, just recorded facts.

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Travis Brown
brownt@capetigers.com
573-579-3853
Home of :
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Peggy 4/91-1/02
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Little Peg 6/98-3/08
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Haley 8/02-11/13
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Taylor 3/05-11/17
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Rotten 10/08-2/13
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Midge 12/10-1/21
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Jessie 4/14-
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Lilly 5/19-

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

Give it up Tar, Browns gotcha covered with real numbers.

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5823

Redneck Mafia, all grand pedigree was UKC #1 reproducer when we quit breeding him @ just over 20% on the reproducer list and multiple years a SS reproducer. Total pups only 138 so he will never make the historical list, just over 100 being permanently registered. I know of several that died before being pemanently registered, several others that died of accidents that had wins and some that had a couple of wins and were bought by pleasure hunters and never finished.
Mafia at my last count had 13 GRNITECH and 25 NITECH, a total of 38 titled dogs for a UKC reproducers percentage of 27.34%. There are many like him that will never make a historical list under current standards.

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Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
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RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
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Registered: Oct 2011
Location: Ooltewah, TN
Posts: 360

One of the biggest and earliest "ALL GRAND" promoters used 1 female to grand several. I'm not calling any names and to each their own but he knows who he is and I'd say a big majority of your all grand pedigrees carry his bitches in them. Does that mean your dogs are any less of a coondog??, not at all. But the man definitely did this and his 1 old Grand Nite female made grand several times, and she and her offspring were at 1 time on the reproducers list, and their were a few studs directly off of her at the same fellas house. Believe what you want about all grand pedigrees, done right they are something to be proud of, but most only used loop wholes and bs to make them as they could sell them pups.

Nuff said!

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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: batsville ark
Posts: 1110

3 things you must have for your all grand pup.1 a bark collar to keep you sanity.2 a good vet on call to treat thyroid problems .3 a keen switch in your hand at 5 out of ten trees made when the leaves fall off the trees to send them on with. .lol

Last edited by thomasg on 08-07-2018 at 10:04 AM

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
Give it up Tar, Browns gotcha covered with real numbers.

---

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Travis appreciate you info on the subject.

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"Boss Lights"

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Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 1009

quote:

---

Originally posted by Travis Brown

1. Rat Attack
2. Trackman
3. Stylish Harry
4. Bone Collector
5. Sunrise
6. Insane Cain
7. Mojo
8. Stylish Jake
9. Fred
10. Cutter

6 of those 10 would throw a 3 generation or more all grand pedigree or 60%. The All Grands make up 60% of the best treeing walker male reproducers for the last 25 years. I doubt all grands would even be 5% of all registered treeing walker coonhounds over the last 25 years. Those numbers should be tough for the doubters to explain. [/B]

---

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

1. Poop smearing kennel tornadoes.
2. I detest any dog that loves to eat skunks ...... Every one of them sometimes three a night.




That is a dominate gene in most of them.



Facts not fiction

Tar

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Tar now lets have some fun and please don't get yourself banned.

We have already got the impression from the board, like all other dogs being bred. That pups come from one side of the fence or the other.

Some pups from honest guys that are just earning the titles the registries offer and are proud of the titles. They then carry that forward by breeding their pups using the quality standards they have. They are probably more interested in a pup for themselves and looking forward to hunting it than they are selling the pups. Which they have no problem doing because of their standards.

Then we have pups from guys that don't understand what it took to earn those titles honestly. They just want the title to then breed to a title and then the money from the pups.

I have purchased a few titled dogs. Most haven't lived up to my expectations as breeding stock. Actually after hunting them one a regular basis. They didn't live up to my expectations as coon hounds either. But, I can't hang my experiences on all titled dogs. I can just learn and do a better job of finding a coon hound first and let the titles fall where they may.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Bruce I am just having fun anyway all this we are talking about is in the past those dogs either are on ice or all gone it's funny now but it wasn't then hear is a couple of my experiences I had a dog out of Harry at 15 months old I thought I could win the world with him at 2 yrs old dogs got ahead of him he would tree out sometimes I would have to whoop him 3 times to get him under the coon never did fix him. Bred my granny female to reeszon had two young dogs out of that cross same way as the Harry dog. My dogs don't do that ( dominant gene ) a guy named Billy's Williams sent me two pups out of Harry X Abby to start they paced and barked night and day they had a ditch wore 8 inches deep in the front of their pen gravel pushed out both sides dookie and mud smeared everywhere put bark collars on them the would grunt till they wore the battery's down then bark put them in the coon pen they had no interest and went and hid. 3 weeks of that I told him to come get them I started a bunch more I liked briar cliff drum my freind ken jones had him I got a female out of him I really like. This is just some of my experiences.


Those breeders say they don't do those things the guys that buy them say they do.


Tar

Last edited by yadkintar on 08-07-2018 at 04:18 PM

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
...... I can just learn and do a better job of finding a coon hound first and let the titles fall where they may.....

---

You can look for coonhounds with traits that you like/want in a pedigree. Anyone can look for titles in a pedigree. Looking for titles doesn't neccesarily mean that they are coonhounds with the traits that you like/want. Surely everyone has hunted with Gr Nt's that would tree a coon but they did not like. There is a lot more to this than just "looking" at a pedigree. If you are just going to "look" at a pedigree then all that you will see are the titles. And if you are just "looking" at or hearing that All Grand title then you are missing a bunch. But looking for titles is a whole lot easier than looking for coonhounds with the traits that you like/want.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 08-07-2018 at 04:21 PM

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