Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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I hate to think my thinking is outdated. But it has to be.
In the late 60's I go a hankering to own a coonhound. Doing the math that is just over 50 years ago. Well my goal was to always get a pup out of coon treeing parents. If the Sire and Dam were well known reproducers or winners. That was all the better and what I looked to get. Now I didn't have 5 or 10 dogs at a time. Usually one pup or maybe a pup and a young dog. Let me say that most were Treeing Walkers but a blue one, red one or black one went through my hands. Again, most raised from pups. I have owned a bunch of half brothers and sisters and full brothers and sisters to some of the top recognized dogs in the Walker Breed. Along with not one over the years, not out of something that was well know for winning and reproducing. Now I never had a desire to breed dogs. I had friends around the country that would breed and if the cross excited me, I would get a pup. For the first 20 or 25 years the pups and the training was about the same. In most cases you had one that done something or was a dud and the dud was easy to see. Then in the 90's more and more of these pups were either fair or made you think they were fair. As most did something but many did the wrong things. This seemed to excite a lot of guys that had seen the same duds I use to see do nothing. Here is where me and the coonhound world started to split. I wasn't going to put up with a not of nonsense. While others were hunting dogs that put on a good show, made a lot of noise, treed a lot of trees. But the coon seemed to be missing from the hunt. Then into the new century 2000 till now. Most of the pups I have been around including mine have been crazy in the pen.
If you don't have heavy duty chain link they will eat it like grass. The will eat up the plastic 5 gallon buckets you use to water them. They will chew up any wood in their pens completely up and poop it out. Along with millions of dollars in bark collars being sold, the new generation of dogs is getting on my nerves. I don't think I will ever breed another dog and watch a litter I planned out with the top blood of the breed. Turn into idiots. Yea these idiots can tree a coon. But you don't get much peace around the house between hunts.

Am I the only one that sees things are changing with our young dogs? It is not specific breeding. It is a movement of the entire breeding world. Producing functioning dogs with bad manners around the house.

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AMEN

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One of the main problems is very few that breed and raise pups actually train them they go buy them and really don't know what they have . They breed titles, pedigrees etc. but don't know what they really have it's mainly in the treeing walker breed. Go to the classified section in treeing walkers and you will see many pups and litters for sale that way also a wise old man told me never buy a pup from a breeder if he is not a real coonhunter someone that actually hunts what he breeds and doesn't have a new stud dog every year etc. The pen crazy pups get culled by me and any pup that doesn't have a good clear type mouth

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Bruce there are so many things to like about these pups today. Most have a lot of hunt, a lot of tree and for me most don't trash as much as they used to. I like a dog with a lot of hunt. I can always get them to hunt closer with training. Now the "lot of tree" deal can be a challenge. One reason is I think it is has to do with the issues you are talking about. They are so hyper they can't stay still in a pen, on a leash and they release that energy in treeing. I know it may not seem that way when they are standing on the tree but I see the same kind of intensity there that I see in the pen. It seems to me they tree because the really like it rather than because they know a coon is there. Now they will look really good when the coon is there but tree the same when it's not. Would love to have one with a lot of tree that only treed because it thought a coon was there. These are just my thoughts and I'm sure other people look at it differently.

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I won't say its purely breed specific, but its way, way more prevalent in Walkers than other colors. Having pups that start at 5 months old comes with a price. I don't know that I will ever raise another one because so many are so crazy. By the time they're ready to hunt I hate them.
The alternative is raising an 'off color' pup that may never do anything at all...

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Location: Minnesota
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And that is why I have stayed with the strain in the breed I hunt. As has been stated, it is in all colors. I remember going to a lot of breed days and needing ear plugs just to walk the grounds AND there where a few you had to be careful when walking pass.

I loved seeing Red Oak Mike walking the grounds behind Ronnie Smith with no lead or Justin DeHass's old Rowdy laying around not saying a word.

Got a Grandson to Rowdy and one that goes back to Mike and the only time you hear them is a few barks at feeding time or if Mr. Raccoon passes though the woods behind the kennel.

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In the walker breed those studs that had 4000 + pups are the ones that caused it lipper started the poop smearing , pen pacing , non stop barking pups. Breeders mixed those dogs to get the all grand pedigree multiple times because the pups started running and treeing early and would fetch unheard of prices from novice young hunters looking to buy dreams. You call them and tell them your pup was an idiot at 12 months old they would laugh and tell you it was because of your training. I handled dogs for one of the biggest sellers of used coondogs in the nation I know what wired 440 and big motor means it means idiot. Why you think I am looking for an outcross.


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Heres the thing, I've worked my share of hounds, what we're looking for is a hound that can tree a coon and compete. Do you know how difficult it is to roll those two things into a hound. I hunted hard all my life four or five nights a week or more, depending on what was going on in life at the time. I turned lots of spotted dogs loose, from all kinds of breeding. This what I learned, I can count on one hand all the great ones, there were lots that could tree a coon, but most couldn't compete on a national level, lot of them could on a local level. Now if you're a serious coon hunter, maybe you were like me, I was concerned with what that dog did when I turned him loose at night, until I loaded him in the box to go home. In his off hours I could care less what he did, if he slept all day, fine, if he paced the pen, I had good welded wire kennels with concrete floors and tops, he wasn't going any where. If he chewed his water bucket, I bought stainless steel ones, he couldn't chew up. If he barked, I lived in the country, no one cared, or I had several methods of fixing that, one of them usually worked. So kennel manners is the least of my worries, I can put up with a lot of things from a hound, if he can consistently tree coons.

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A dog that will not mind and bark out of place in the pen will do the same in the woods.




Simple as that !!


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I read on here some time back where Mr.
Conkey or Mr.Richards one wrote that a dog will get away with anything you will allow it to and that makes a lot of sense to me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
A dog that will not mind and bark out of place in the pen will do the same in the woods.




Simple as that !!


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---

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I don’t want one barking just because they are barking I want them running coon pilgrim or keep their mouth shut. And they better not bark twice in the same spot either.


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quote:

---

Originally posted by yadkintar
I don’t want one barking just because they are barking I want them running coon pilgrim or keep their mouth shut. And they better not bark twice in the same spot either.


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Some of them need adjusted a lot!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by pigsit
My point was, Pilgrim, barking in the pen has nothing to do with barking in the woods. You put thirty nights on a dog that changes a lot of things about how he operates. You cant always change them, most of that is genetic, but you can adjust them a little.

---

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2ol2hunt. i wrote that. I feel it is true. But just like we look for a natural dog in the woods. I would like to see a naturally calm pup in the pen. I havent seen one in a while. Getting tired of charging bark collars and buying metal water buckets because they eat the plastic ones.

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Location: Mercer PA
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I feel so blessed right now reading this post. I have had those dogs I hated before I ever tried to start them...sold em before they learned to load.
This last one spoiled me forever. She has never barked in the pen, if you let her out every 24 hours, she won't even poop in there. Did have a little car sickness as a pup but now loads right up waits to collar up and never makes a peep. Take her to the woods, cut her, she goes hunting, trees raccoons, and you load her back up, scratch her head and she is stone silent on the way home, put her in the pen with never a worry of barking. She did chew the edge of one bucket as a pup, did spill her water once, and will dig if you chain her out, but all in all it's a pure joy to own her.

Now I'm not competing at any level, but just her personality makes her the perfect dog for me. She is an 18 month old plott.

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It's a myth that walkers start earlier than off breeds. I have seen pups of all breeds start early. I'm sure all breeds have idiots for manners and all have some that are well behaved. The priorities of the walker owners is the difference.

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Bruce,have you ever pondered the difference in dog food then and now.I have had my share and with all this high performance food we feed no wonder they are hyper.Just a thought!

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I don’t see hyper as a positive in pups or dogs...they tend to be harder to control...

If the pup is mildly hyper it can be tolerated...

I don’t like a pup or dog that barks excessively...I have two pups now that one has learned to stay quiet and the other constantly needs correcting...I don’t reward them for barking by walking up to kennel and petting or even letting them out...one has learned and the other is hard headed about it...I’m starting to think he might not make it here...

There is another type of pup or dog that can really be an awesome hunting dog and a pleasure to hunt...they are totally laid back...but when turned loose in the woods they are something to see...

I had one that wouldn’t come out of his dog house to eat and you about had to drag him out of his dog house...he looked like he just wanted to relax and kick back...but when you unloaded in the woods he found hogs when no other dog could find one and he was at a run...he didn’t bay hogs he stopped them and fought them...he hunted himself until heat exhaustion would make him fall out...it seems his heart beat 10 times a minute at home...

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Jerry, I have thought a lot about dog food today and have trust issues with a lot of it. Just dont think I have looked at it with the point of view your making. Something else for me to ponder. Jerry my memory is fading but did you own the Midnight Buster dog. Think there was a female out of him clocked at 140 barks per minute on a tree.

Pam, I am talking about changes in these pups over a 50+ years. We could fill up pages talking about walkers starting earlier. But thats another story for a different time. I am talking about an overall decay in the mental status of dogs when being housed in a kennel. They have went nuts.

With that said I owned one of the best ever born as far as being calm in the kennel. Lil Shine was a doll baby. Bred her to a top dog. Right at 50 grand in winnings between them. UKC titles also. Pups were culls in the pen and in the woods. Go figure.

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Registered: Jan 2006
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Bruce,I owned Buster and had several real tree dogs out of him.The Penny dog crossed with Buster had some 130 to 140 bark tree dogs.They also treedcoons.I used to mess with walking and racking horses.If you gave them too much protein you were in for a lot of trouble,back off the protein and settle back down.Dogs used to eat low protein or tablet scraps.

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Registered: Oct 2011
Location: Merersburg PA
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
I hate to think my thinking is outdated. But it has to be.
In the late 60's I go a hankering to own a coonhound. Doing the math that is just over 50 years ago. Well my goal was to always get a pup out of coon treeing parents. If the Sire and Dam were well known reproducers or winners. That was all the better and what I looked to get. Now I didn't have 5 or 10 dogs at a time. Usually one pup or maybe a pup and a young dog. Let me say that most were Treeing Walkers but a blue one, red one or black one went through my hands. Again, most raised from pups. I have owned a bunch of half brothers and sisters and full brothers and sisters to some of the top recognized dogs in the Walker Breed. Along with not one over the years, not out of something that was well know for winning and reproducing. Now I never had a desire to breed dogs. I had friends around the country that would breed and if the cross excited me, I would get a pup. For the first 20 or 25 years the pups and the training was about the same. In most cases you had one that done something or was a dud and the dud was easy to see. Then in the 90's more and more of these pups were either fair or made you think they were fair. As most did something but many did the wrong things. This seemed to excite a lot of guys that had seen the same duds I use to see do nothing. Here is where me and the coonhound world started to split. I wasn't going to put up with a not of nonsense. While others were hunting dogs that put on a good show, made a lot of noise, treed a lot of trees. But the coon seemed to be missing from the hunt. Then into the new century 2000 till now. Most of the pups I have been around including mine have been crazy in the pen.
If you don't have heavy duty chain link they will eat it like grass. The will eat up the plastic 5 gallon buckets you use to water them. They will chew up any wood in their pens completely up and poop it out. Along with millions of dollars in bark collars being sold, the new generation of dogs is getting on my nerves. I don't think I will ever breed another dog and watch a litter I planned out with the top blood of the breed. Turn into idiots. Yea these idiots can tree a coon. But you don't get much peace around the house between hunts.

Am I the only one that sees things are changing with our young dogs? It is not specific breeding. It is a movement of the entire breeding world. Producing functioning dogs with bad manners around the house.

---

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Matt I apologize but I don't think you understood. Or I did not make myself clear enough. I am not talking about the younger generation of hunters. I have nothing but the upmost respect for them and spend a lot of money each year promoting what they do in Youth Programs.

I am taking about the younger generation of hounds that are being produced. Not any particular generation of hunters young or old that are producing them.

Here is the thing and it is a Blessing but perhaps a curse. When someone lives a long time and is involved with something a long time. They are Blessed to see the changes to a sport over the years. Dog breeding is about genetics. But there is also an environmental affect on genetics. Most people in the hound world for 20 years never see the changes. They just roll with what is out there and make the best of it. You see 50 year changes in hound behavior and it makes you scratch you head and wonder where some of the actions of our dogs today creeped into the breeding program.

I am not saying there are not quality dogs out there. There are and the quality of today is better that the average quality of the past. Just with the quality comes a lot of actions that borders on for lack of better term. Being nuts.

Maybe the same with our Children. Look at the kids today that go to school on medication so they can sit still an be quiet so the Teacher can teach. Has our kids and dogs both had there genetics migrate to a point of being over Hyper. Or has the condition always been there and 50 years ago it was medicated with a switch on both the dog and kids. In todays world the switch has become a ancient and cruel object. But it use to work.

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Registered: May 2016
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Pam lets discuss the starting early. I have seen many a dog that was not a walker being started by friends. Very few started as easy as a Walker pup. I am not talking about how they finished, which is more important. But getting started.

Really that right there is what has me disappointed. If an when I breed. Most of the pups are given away. To young people if possible. That is also one reason I have always liked the Walker breed. I can give a young kid a walker pup and the pup brings enough to the table to make a fair dog with an inexperienced trainer. The pup and the kid learn together. But the down side is now. You give a kid a pup and the parents get mad at all the barking. The neighbors get mad. The kid ends up sad when the pup is chewing up its pen and causing havoc. Dad tells him the pup has to leave there. That is not something I want to be part of. I have the resources to purchase bark collars and the experience to use them without damage to the dogs neck. I have access to BARK ACTIVATED sprinkler system that shuts a dog up. But those devices are not the norm and most kids with their first pups can't afford or know how to use.

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