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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 20358

Coonhounds or Competition Winners

Are the deep and alone competition winners of today real coonhounds? Is the hot nosed, run through the country wide open until they run up on a hot track and just tree dog that all of the comp hunters are looking for a real coon dog?

A friend of mine said that since they are "winners", they are the best type of coon dog.

Are comp hunts set up to reward the best real coondog? Is the dog that trees the most coons really the best "coondog"? Or is the dog that has a good nose, takes the first track that they come to, trails it up and trees it the best coondog?

Just what is a "real coondog"?

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Old Post 12-13-2019 02:16 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 4754

.

Richard IF I was able to answer that for five people. There would be 5 different answers.

Because of what you said. What is a real Coondog.

Everyone has their opinion. It depends on what your looking to accomplish with your hounds.

I have a female our there that hasn't been hunted in a year. Last Saturday a friend wanted to take his Son and go tree a coon to try and excite a couple pups. He called to borrow her and I said he may be disappointed in the results. Few hours later he sent a picture of the coon she treed. She is real enough for me. But probably not real enough for others.

What is a real stock car race. The ones Saturday or Sunday or on Friday night at you local track. All are real to those that choose to play the game. They just bring or choose to support a different type car depending on what day they are racing.

Same with coonhounds but no one wants to admit it. All events allow the same dogs. Just different entry fees and some minor rule differences that might allow one dog geared a little different from another dog to win.

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Old Post 12-13-2019 02:34 PM
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tpettit
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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: greencastle, in
Posts: 148

I think if a dog gets turned loose and trees a coon by bush wacking one 3/4 mile in or by straddling a track and walking it out 200 yards is a coon dog! Its the style of coon dog that is different. Consistency is the key and being the best at your style is important as to what time of year you wanna go to a comp hunt. Just my opinion.

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Old Post 12-13-2019 03:11 PM
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Preacher Tom
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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 1012

Richard this is my opinion and only mine but if I have a dog that truly suits me as a pleasure hunting dog, if he does the things I like a dog to do, I believe he will do very well in the hunts. The main difference would be how far he hunts. I don't want a dog to go a mile or more to find a coon but most competition guys don't want them to ever come back. The dog that won't come back is not a pleasure to hunt for me.

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Old Post 12-13-2019 03:18 PM
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Reuben
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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1414

Not even a week ago folks were talking about crossbred coondogs...someone mentioned bird dog x hound and English pointer was mentioned as well as German short hair pointer...

Seems everyone said GSP would be best and the English pointer would be too high strung...

The difference as I see it is the the English pointer is what it is today because of competition hunting...

The GSP was bred and tested to meet a hunting standard...which in my opinion produces a superior dog that is more of a pleasure to hunt...it is likely the standard was written by folks who new how a top bird dog should hunt and operate...

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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5114

Re: Coonhounds or Competition Winners

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Are the deep and alone competition winners of today real coonhounds? Is the hot nosed, run through the country wide open until they run up on a hot track and just tree dog that all of the comp hunters are looking for a real coon dog?

A friend of mine said that since they are "winners", they are the best type of coon dog.

Are comp hunts set up to reward the best real coondog? Is the dog that trees the most coons really the best "coondog"? Or is the dog that has a good nose, takes the first track that they come to, trails it up and trees it the best coondog?

Just what is a "real coondog"?


Richard if you think that all these that are consistently winning hunts are just run wide open go deep before they tree a hot pop up you my dear are sadly mistaken and have been deceived.

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Old Post 12-13-2019 03:44 PM
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AAThoundhunter
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Registered: Jul 2014
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Coondog

A dog that has coons in its trees is a coondog. All the in between is just preference.

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Old Post 12-13-2019 05:01 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1414

Re: Coonhounds or Competition Winners

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Are the deep and alone competition winners of today real coonhounds? Is the hot nosed, run through the country wide open until they run up on a hot track and just tree dog that all of the comp hunters are looking for a real coon dog?

A friend of mine said that since they are "winners", they are the best type of coon dog.

Are comp hunts set up to reward the best real coondog? Is the dog that trees the most coons really the best "coondog"? Or is the dog that has a good nose, takes the first track that they come to, trails it up and trees it the best coondog?

Just what is a "real coondog"?



I think these thoughts have gone through many coon hunters minds...

The deep and alone...

In analyzing the deep and alone...we need data to analyze correctly...look and study one hundred deep and alone dogs...if 90 out of 100 deep and alone dogs are top coon dogs then so be it...

If only ten are excellent coon dogs and 90 are culls then there is a problem...what confuses the data are those 10 deep and alone dogs that win a competition...folks that arenít looking at the real data are wanting that 1 in ten dog...

There are many times when most everyone is in agreement about a certain trait and someone comes up with the total opposite idea and is really pushing that one hit wonder...and this will mess up the right answer...correct data collection is very powerful...the more data collected and analyzed creates better outcomes for accuracy...

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novicane65
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1555

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Not even a week ago folks were talking about crossbred coondogs...someone mentioned bird dog x hound and English pointer was mentioned as well as German short hair pointer...

Seems everyone said GSP would be best and the English pointer would be too high strung...

The difference as I see it is the the English pointer is what it is today because of competition hunting...

The GSP was bred and tested to meet a hunting standard...which in my opinion produces a superior dog that is more of a pleasure to hunt...it is likely the standard was written by folks who new how a top bird dog should hunt and operate...




There's a huge flaw currently with GSP's. And that flaw is they're becoming the Golden Retriever, or the Irish Setter or the Gordon Setter. They're being over bred by people that don't hunt a lick, (show dog & lap dog owners). It's very noticeable if you've been around a bunch of hunting stock and then around the other. There still is great GSP's out there but not all are even close to meeting the German standards. And the German stock (Deutsch Kurzhaar) are bigger framed dogs on average because of the fur part that they're used on. You can register any Kurzhaar as a GSP but the other way around. Just like a German Wirehair Pointer vs the Drahthaar, you can register the draht as a GWP but the other way.

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Todd K / UKC
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
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quote:
Originally posted by novicane65
There's a huge flaw currently with GSP's. And that flaw is they're becoming the Golden Retriever, or the Irish Setter or the Gordon Setter. They're being over bred by people that don't hunt a lick, (show dog & lap dog owners). It's very noticeable if you've been around a bunch of hunting stock and then around the other. There still is great GSP's out there but not all are even close to meeting the German standards. And the German stock (Deutsch Kurzhaar) are bigger framed dogs on average because of the fur part that they're used on. You can register any Kurzhaar as a GSP but the other way around. Just like a German Wirehair Pointer vs the Drahthaar, you can register the draht as a GWP but the other way.


Well said Eric. I agree.

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Reuben
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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1414

Especially in AKC...many breeds become popular and they are only bred for the show ring...used to be many commercials using GSP and I am sure that doesnít help a bred that becomes well known...everyone wants a pet...

Years ago there were articles about hunting strains of bird dogs as compared to AKC show dogs using golden retriever, Irish and English setters...

The AKC bird dogs lacking in hunting traits, they had long narrow heads lacking in brain power, extremely long hair which wasnít useful on the hunt...narrow chest and rib cage which was not appropriate for a dog that needed lung capacity...

The hunting strains had shorter hair...wider heads, a sturdier dog with strong loins and greater lung capacity...

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arkansas cooner
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A coon dog should be the one that trees the most coon.. jmo

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arkansas cooner
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A coon dog should be the one that trees the most coon.. jmo

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Preacher Tom
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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 1012

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Preacher Tom
Richard this is my opinion and only mine but if I have a dog that truly suits me as a pleasure hunting dog, if he does the things I like a dog to do, I believe he will do very well in the hunts. The main difference would be how far he hunts. I don't want a dog to go a mile or more to find a coon but most competition guys don't want them to ever come back. The dog that won't come back is not a pleasure to hunt for me. [/QUOTE

I need to change "most competition guys" to "many competition guys". As I reread this I realized that most was not correct but I read ads that say "no reverse" as a good thing but to me it's a bad thing. Just a difference in what each person wants.

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shadinc
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My truck doesn't back up until I put it in reverse. My dog is the same way.

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Old Post 12-13-2019 09:52 PM
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Redneck Mafia
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quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
My truck doesn't back up until I put it in reverse. My dog is the same way.

👍 giving you the quote of the day award!

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novicane65
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Registered: Dec 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by Preacher Tom
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Preacher Tom
Richard this is my opinion and only mine but if I have a dog that truly suits me as a pleasure hunting dog, if he does the things I like a dog to do, I believe he will do very well in the hunts. The main difference would be how far he hunts. I don't want a dog to go a mile or more to find a coon but most competition guys don't want them to ever come back. The dog that won't come back is not a pleasure to hunt for me. [/QUOTE

I need to change "most competition guys" to "many competition guys". As I reread this I realized that most was not correct but I read ads that say "no reverse" as a good thing but to me it's a bad thing. Just a difference in what each person wants.



Here's my opinion on that, I want a dog to hunt. I'm not big on getting scratched for non-hunting dog. But I like 1 that will hunt out to say 500-900 yards and come back by. But it keeps hunting and goes further the next loop or swing. Reason I like this is because it can save your legs and a bunch of grief in the long run. Is it a deal breaker for me to not have this..... No. But I will not hunt a dog that has hardly no range to it.

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tntelkhntr
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Re: Coondog

quote:
Originally posted by AAThoundhunter
A dog that has coons in its trees is a coondog. All the in between is just preference.



This is the exact answer!

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Richard Lambert
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I am not talking about hunting or not hunting and I am not talking about no reverse. Some true coonhounds have no reverse. I am talking about hot nosed, blast through the country until they bushwack a hot coon. I am talking about dogs that can't or don't even try to trail or run a track.

And you can't shift into reverse or apply the brakes to a hound in a comp hunt.
Not every dog that wins is a hot nosed, blast through the country, can't/won't trail dog. But it is getting to the point where most of them are.

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Preacher Tom
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quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
My truck doesn't back up until I put it in reverse. My dog is the same way.


I like that analogy. But I grew up hunting in the 60's and 70's when we didn't have any equipment to "put it in reverse" so just never really got to where I liked one with no reverse. I will say this that I hunt a dog now that I don't think would not have had a reverse except that when I was training him I would tone him back at 800-1000 yards and pretty soon that's just how he hunted. As I said it's just the preference of the guy hunting them. One is not necessarily better than the other.

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Reuben
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quote:
Originally posted by Preacher Tom
I like that analogy. But I grew up hunting in the 60's and 70's when we didn't have any equipment to "put it in reverse" so just never really got to where I liked one with no reverse. I will say this that I hunt a dog now that I don't think would not have had a reverse except that when I was training him I would tone him back at 800-1000 yards and pretty soon that's just how he hunted. As I said it's just the preference of the guy hunting them. One is not necessarily better than the other.


The thing about toning the dog back...or extreme handling to win then those dogs will be bred and then folks will be talking about all the junk out there...saying pedigrees are only a piece of paper and does not mean anything...

Should we be breeding these type of dogs or those that tend to do it naturally?

Breeding natural hunting dogs begets more of the same...

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Dave Richards
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Just what is a "real coondog"?

The ones that have real coon dogs know the answer and the ones that don't have real coon dogs will have many different answers. Anyone who has ever seen a real coon dog operate will never be satisfied with anything less. At least that's the way it's been for me over ALL these years. Dave

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Jparker
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I'm a pleasure hunter and I love a dog with a nose and knows how to use it not blowing on it then treeing where it feed at last and wont go on im hunting for one like that now can anyone pointed me in that direction

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Team Mafia 2
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A lot of dogs can tree a coon but just because a dog consistently trees coons doesnít make it in any way shape or form a coon dog. Iíve hunted with literally hundreds of dogs that consistently treed coons that were common as green grass in the summertime. A coon dog can be cut loose with 10 dogs 5 strike a deer and run it through the country and the other 5 tree every possum in the woods and Mr coon dog will be sunk through the country with a ricky above him. They have to be 100% indifferent to all of the nonsense thatís going on around them. Everyone claims to have a coon dog but they would quickly learn different under the circumstances Iíve listed above. Also a coon dog will NEVER have a bad night. They may have a bad drop but never a bad night. Even on there bad drops you can still see the superiority to the dogs around them.

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Dave Richards
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Real coon dog

Just for the record, every dog that I have ever seen, owned or hunted with that I called a top coon dog or "real" coon dog was just as good at competition hunting as they were pleasure hunting. I have seen lots of dogs that were either goid competition dogs or pleasure hunting dogs, but not both. A real coon dog is both, makes NO difference to them whether it's competition or pleasure hunting, they perform at a higher level at all times. Dalton, your post was spot on, makes NO difference what the other dogs do to a real coon dog. Dave

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