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HOBO
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Weyers Cave Va
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When May A Bench Show Judge?

If a judge thinks a dog is over or under the heights for that breed when and how can a judge measure them?

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Old Post 04-26-2017 02:52 PM
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Richard Lambert
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When? Anytime he wants to. Must be done standing naturally on the ground is what I was told by a knowledgeable bench show judge.

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yadkintar
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Hobo those standreds are really liberal a matter of 4 or 5 inches on some an experienced judge can tell when to measure or not it's very obvious.

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Krystal / UKC
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A judge has the right to pull a dog off the bench to be measured as soon as they feel they need to. Like Richard said, on the ground in a natural, relaxed position. NOT set up. If the dog free stacks, that is fine, but handler is not to set the dog up. Also remember that a dog being over or under height standards doesn't mean the dog gets pulled from the ring, it just means that dog is not to be considered for placement.

Side note; the height standards do not apply to puppies in the puppy class

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yadkintar
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But if you measure them relaxed on the bench you don't have to worry about your belly being in the way when you bend over and not being able to read the tape because of your bifocals just sayen lol.

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HOBO
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What should be used to measure one?

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Krystal / UKC
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Wickets are strongly recommended for the most accurate measurement of a dog

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HOBO
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What should you do if the judge tries to measure your dog on a bench with just a tape measure?

What's the next option of no one has a wicket to measure with?

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Old Post 04-26-2017 06:37 PM
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Krystal / UKC
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Let them measure the dog if they really want to do it on a bench...Keep in mind, though, a male that is right at 27 inches might be 27.5 or 28 when stacked and tense on a bench. (Same goes for females right at 25) A male that is right at 22 inches you may want a judge to measure on the bench in hopes that it measures out to 22.5 or 23. Haha! I, personally, would want a judge to do it correctly and I would request that I put my dog on the ground before a judge tries to measure it. The only time it truly becomes a huge matter of accuracy is if you know your dog is right on the line of too short or too tall. At the end of the day, the dog is not being pulled out of the show. After measurement, the dog is to remain in the ring. I could go on and on about how to judge properly and the responsibilities of a judge (I'm sure you know that I could. haha) but to answer this specific question, it is the judges discretion. For a little more insight on this, don't be afraid to shoot me a text or something and we can always discuss more.

A wicket is the most accurate way to measure a dog, but if a wicket is not on hand then using a tape measure is just fine as well.

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Old Post 04-26-2017 07:14 PM
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HOBO
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It usually takes you toooooooooo long to respond to messenger

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Old Post 04-26-2017 07:20 PM
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Krystal / UKC
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Am I taking too long, or am I just trying to ignore your nonsense? Haha!

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Since HOBO has peaked my interest in show dogs I have a question. At most of the major hunts we are generally set up in the area of the bench show arena. All day we see dogs going in and coming out of the show area on leads. Whey do they look so much different than the dogs me and my buddies take hunting. The walkers seem exceptionally large. The red ones and black ones look like they have legs that would break jumping out of a truck. If you can't hunt a hound with legs the size of nails because they would break, why can you show them.
The sad part of this is there are some very nice people showing these dogs and they love them just as much as I love mine, if not more. This is in no way intended to slight any of those people as they are showing to standards already set in place and the hunters and the show people are in the same boat with it comes to what's trying to be taken away from us. I just can't figure out why there is some much difference in looks between the ones that hunt and the ones that show. Especially when it gets to the point the ones being shown, don't look like they could physically stand up in the woods.

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HOBO
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quote:
Originally posted by Krystal / UKC
Am I taking too long, or am I just trying to ignore your nonsense? Haha!


Now that just hurts!! I would have expected that kind of response from Allen or TO.



ROFL

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Old Post 04-26-2017 07:50 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Mr Conkey, it is really very simple. Those show dogs that you see at the major shows are bred to win shows. They don't care if they hunt or not. They only have to be pretty.
The hunting dogs are bred to win hunts. They don't care what they look like.
Those skinny legged cat footed straight legged dogs sure are pretty. Those big boned lanky hunting dogs sure can hunt. So, I guess that the show people and the hunting people are both doing a great job.
I bet that the show people wonder why we have such ugly hounds.

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Old Post 04-26-2017 08:15 PM
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msinc
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Legs and feet account for the most points in a show and rightly so...that is how the dog motivates. Every breed standard calls for nice tight "cat like" feet which is not just to look "pretty", it is in fact to help the dog run longer and have more endurance. So called "hunting" dogs with big wide duck like flat splayed out toes and feet will not be able run as long or hold up in the woods as well, both in the short term {one hunt} or long term {rest of their life}.
Where this all really pays off in in a dogs advanced years. Not to pick on a breed, but I have seen many blueticks that had bad feet and when they were 8 or 9 they just about couldn't go anymore, they just had a broke down appearance with a sway back and look like they were "spent".
I had a redbone female once and a buddy had a walker that at 14 either dog still hunted like they were 5 or 6. The common denominator was good feet and legs and this is why it is assessed for more points and so important. Now, it can go the other way and get too spindly and unable to support the weight of the dog...this is just as bad and can be a result of breeding too far one way.

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Old Post 04-26-2017 08:42 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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.

Richard, I agree to a point. The point is every breed has it's conformation standards. Those standards were not developed so the dog looks good. They were developed so the dog can physically stand up to the environment they were bred for. A coonhound should be able to stand up to many nights in the woods or many a mile across a desert tracking a cat.
Just not to sure the show people haven't taken it to right to the edge of what these dogs should look like. Kind of like the hunters with the automatic strike dogs. lol The height thing doesn't bother me as much as the frail legs. But the height thing seems to me to be something that is being overlooked. Now I was a carpenter and bridge builder and I know what a ruler is. Not sure I can describe a wicket.
The ruler I used would send about 25% of them great big walker hounds back out of the building. Darn they sure are pretty, but they sure are tall!

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Old Post 04-26-2017 08:44 PM
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Krystal / UKC
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quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Legs and feet account for the most points in a show and rightly so...that is how the dog motivates. Every breed standard calls for nice tight "cat like" feet which is not just to look "pretty", it is in fact to help the dog run longer and have more endurance. So called "hunting" dogs with big wide duck like flat splayed out toes and feet will not be able run as long or hold up in the woods as well, both in the short term {one hunt} or long term {rest of their life}.
Where this all really pays off in in a dogs advanced years. Not to pick on a breed, but I have seen many blueticks that had bad feet and when they were 8 or 9 they just about couldn't go anymore, they just had a broke down appearance with a sway back and look like they were "spent".
I had a redbone female once and a buddy had a walker that at 14 either dog still hunted like they were 5 or 6. The common denominator was good feet and legs and this is why it is assessed for more points and so important. Now, it can go the other way and get too spindly and unable to support the weight of the dog...this is just as bad and can be a result of breeding too far one way.



I agree with most of this, but not all breeds are to have a cat foot Black and Tans are not to be cat footed nor are they supposed to be splay footed.

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Old Post 04-26-2017 08:57 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
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Well, I guess the score is zero to zero. We tied.
I say the show dogs are either to tall or legs to skinny. They say the hunting dogs babble to much and tree to many slick trees. TOUCHE
If I offended any of my show friends, I am sorry. You keep on rubbing their bellies on the bench and I will keep on patting their heads at the tree. I think I have a bigger chance of getting dog bit, snake bit and tick bit. But I will never stump my toe on a bench. lol

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Old Post 04-26-2017 09:09 PM
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MIKE CARDER
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Here you go.

We used these for beagles. I'm sure you wouldn't use a tape measure. It would have to be be rigid and be able to measure the top of the withers.



Hey let's start that Dewclaw debate again. Now that we are talking about shows.

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Old Post 04-26-2017 09:16 PM
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msinc
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Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Well, I guess the score is zero to zero. We tied.
I say the show dogs are either to tall or legs to skinny. They say the hunting dogs babble to much and tree to many slick trees. TOUCHE
If I offended any of my show friends, I am sorry. You keep on rubbing their bellies on the bench and I will keep on patting their heads at the tree. I think I have a bigger chance of getting dog bit, snake bit and tick bit. But I will never stump my toe on a bench. lol



Mr. Conkey....whoever said you cant have both?????



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Old Post 04-26-2017 09:25 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
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Since they are not too tall or have skinny legs. I would imagine they don't babble or slick tree either. Congratulations. LOL Seriously that young person in the picture is what it is all about. They are our future! Looks like in your neck of the woods it is a bright one.

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Old Post 04-26-2017 09:32 PM
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MIKE CARDER
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Well

Thats a nice looking hound!!! That kid is ready to go!!! Love that picture.

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Old Post 04-26-2017 09:37 PM
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msinc
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Re: Well

quote:
Originally posted by MIKE CARDER
Thats a nice looking hound!!! That kid is ready to go!!! Love that picture.


Thank you sir!!! My son goes about as hard as the dog. I had to put those old reflective mining stickers on his hat so I can see where he is in the woods. I told him if he didn't stick with me at night I was gonna make him wear a T-5!!!!

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Justin Roberts
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Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Since HOBO has peaked my interest in show dogs I have a question. At most of the major hunts we are generally set up in the area of the bench show arena. All day we see dogs going in and coming out of the show area on leads. Whey do they look so much different than the dogs me and my buddies take hunting. The walkers seem exceptionally large. The red ones and black ones look like they have legs that would break jumping out of a truck. If you can't hunt a hound with legs the size of nails because they would break, why can you show them.
The sad part of this is there are some very nice people showing these dogs and they love them just as much as I love mine, if not more. This is in no way intended to slight any of those people as they are showing to standards already set in place and the hunters and the show people are in the same boat with it comes to what's trying to be taken away from us. I just can't figure out why there is some much difference in looks between the ones that hunt and the ones that show. Especially when it gets to the point the ones being shown, don't look like they could physically stand up in the woods.


Well looking at Allen's post on Purina national entries I see that at least one dog is entered in both so someone is doing something right.

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OLD TIMER
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HOBO--

Timmy made Grand Show in 9 shows. He lost to a Walker here in a local show and then beat him at Breed Days a few months later. Out of the 9 shows he was measured 7 times, all with a little tape the judges had in their pocket.

Bruce, he didn't have tiny bone legs nor a coke bottle head. He had good feet and blood red color.

I didn't feed him because of his title, but because he treed coon with a good bawl mouth on track and chop on the tree. His feet were the type Mr Roy wrote about in the late 60's---"center 2 toes should be longer then the outside 2, like a coyote not a cat, and they should have a slight bend in the pasterns as this acts like a shock absorber so as not to cause soreness in the shoulders."

The old girl I got from Red made Show Champion. She had 2 litters, was 7 years old and had never been on a bench until I started messing with her.

The one and biggest thing I learned about showing hounds is THEY HAVE TO LIKE IT--both Timmy and Cheta loved to show as much as they loved to tree coon. Now as far as Show vs Hunt? That is up to the person feeding them and what they want in their hounds. I have a female here that I'm pretty sure could get a Show title, she loves to show, has it all along with Mr. Hills World Show Champion in her pedigree twice but she's eating my feed because she trees coon. I like a good looking hound because I look at them 365 days a year and they don't eat anymore than an ugly one. As far as ONLY treeing coon---you can really do that with just about any DOG, dash hound, lab or even a shepherd, so looks and breed isn't really needed to put hides on the barn.

As long as the hunters are having as much fun as the show people, who care.

But just be careful when you think those "pretty" afternoon hounds are a cake walk to beat when the sun goes down!!😂😂😂

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