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jkhutch
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2009
Location: West Central Indiana
Posts: 1318

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
YOU MIGHT CHECK WITH THE SPOTTED DOG FOLKS, HI DRIVE, NOT SO MANY COON, BUT STILL WIN. MMMMM

I still to this day havnt hunted with a Redbone that has the speed and drive to find a coon than some of the walkers I hunt with in my area and that I have drawn at some bigger hunts. I’m not talking about the 100 and 100 pack hunting quick strike dogs and 1 bark tree dogs. I’m talking about the dogs that are struck for 2nd to 4th and treed first at 600 yards alone while all the others are still taking a crap when you turn them loose. These dogs typical tree more Coons than others because they are so fast at finding a coon. Then when you recut them they are another 600 or 700 treed again within 10 or less. These style of hounds are what’s winning consistently across the country and bringing home the big paychecks. They hunt anytime in any conditions. These style dogs hunt the same weather you hunt them alone or with dogs in the woods. Most of these style dogs are 80% to 90% accurate from what I have seen while hunting with them. They are typically alone and will flat out just tree more Coons than the 100 and 100 style pack dogs because they don’t care about anything else except finding a medium to hot track and getting it up a tree. I have been in a lot of cast where all you are doing is walking and shining, no time for standing around waiting for something to get treed because most of the time if you draw a couple of these dogs in a cast together they keep you busy looking at Coons in trees. For some of you that don’t know what I’m talking about come to my house and we will get together with a couple of these dogs and I will show you what I mean. It doesn’t matter if someone doesnt like this style of dog or not, but these dogs are the ones winning. If you hunt patch woods or have thin Coons you better have gas in your truck or a new pair of boots and plenty of shells, cause these dogs will flat out tree a lot of Coons!! These style dogs are not very fun to pleasure hunt with your buddies or hunt pups with. These dogs usually show up in the winners circle or finals for many years and just not a year or two. They have so much drive age usually doesn’t effect them until they get 8 or 9 years old and sometimes older. They may take a step backwoods for a a couple of years but then are right back in the winners circle when they are 5 to 10 years of age. THEY HAVE NO QUIT. Weather you want to call it drive or speed or both. This is what it takes to win big consistently for many years. For those of you that hunt a lot of bigger $KC hunts you know what I talking about. So with that in mind, this is what I’m looking for breeding Redbones. Do I think there is set of purebred Redbones that can produce dogs like this consistently. I’m not sure, but I’m gonna keep trying

. Some of you might say well that’s not the way Redbones are, just go get a walker dog if you want one to hunt like that. Well that’s not the point I’m trying to get at. The point is that if we as Redbones Breeders want something to put in the big time winners circle on a consistent basis this is what it takes.

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Jared Hutcheson
Indiana
Redbones:
GRNTCH PKC Ch PR Hutch's Big Walnut Boone HTX DNA-V(Haze X Reba)-
2 Time UKC World Top 100
UKC World Top 20 (13th)
UKC Purina Redbone of the year
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UKC Top Producers List
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Co owned with Richard Lambert

GrNtCh PKC Ch One Chance Fancy- (Boone X Toadie)
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Walkers-
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Last edited by jkhutch on 11-17-2017 at 06:57 PM

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11-17-2017 06:32 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Oh my goodness...tree, tree, tree...walk to trees all night never stopping to listen.....Forget about trailing or working a track...Just fly through the woods until they hit an easy pop up coon... Is that what you are looking for? Sounds like you just need to get a spotted dog if no one has a Redbone that you like.

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11-17-2017 06:59 PM

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jkhutch
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2009
Location: West Central Indiana
Posts: 1318

I already did didn’t I 😀. I sure hope she can heal up fast so Tyler can get her ready for spring 😀.

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11-17-2017 07:02 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4281

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness...tree, tree, tree...walk to trees all night never stopping to listen.....Forget about trailing or working a track...Just fly through the woods until they hit an easy pop up coon... Is that what you are looking for? Sounds like you just need to get a spotted dog if no one has a Redbone that you like.

You sure do like to play the devils advocate a lot on this forum Richard. I know you have been to enough big hunts over the years and got your butt waxed just like the rest of us by the same type dog Jared described....so you know those are the dogs who most often beat us in competition. Sooo......
Maybe the question you should be asking is....
Do you want to win big hunts? Because the type of dog Jared is talking about is what wins most of the big hunts year after year.
For someone who posts about who is winning what hunts every month ...I would think you of all people would realize that you have to breed dogs with the ability to beat the type that continually wins the big hunts every year.
If you want to listen to a cold trailing track dog that doesn't get in there fast or far and circles it's tree a half dozen times before it locates and then gets last tree on it...then maybe you should stick to pleasure hunting because that type of dog cannot compete year round with top level competition dogs.
These dogs that keep putting Redbones out before they can get to the important final fours at big hunts have immense drive...and they also are strong in a few other traits...thats why they win. If we as a breed want to put dogs in more final fours...we better make drive, speed, independence and accuracy our priorities and stop breeding for pets and show dogs that "hunt for me and try to please me".
That has went on for years and is probably the main reason we always get stopped out before we make those final four casts at major hunts.

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Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
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(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
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Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
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as Shenandoah Maxey

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-17-2017 at 07:55 PM

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11-17-2017 07:47 PM

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Roger Hall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Southern, Ohio
Posts: 404

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I think that Boone has a little Pepper Ann in him. Who made the CD X Pepper Ann cross?

I made that cross. I leased Pepper Ann from Doug when he had her.

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WE HAVE PUPS, STARTED AND FINSHED DOGS FROM TIME to TIME

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11-17-2017 08:54 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

If I have to have a dog like that to win then I guess that I will just stick to pleasure hunting. Maybe that is why all of those big hunt winners are walker dogs. But I guess that I will just keep hunting and breeding these Redbones that suit me instead of trying to change the whole breed into walker dogs just so I can win a comp hunt.
If you succeed in breeding the type of dog that you are looking for, will it really be a Redbone or just a red colored walker dog?

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11-17-2017 08:59 PM

Adam Wingler
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1529

Stereotyping the breeds is why we’re still a joke in most circles.

A winner is a winner is a winner...breed is recognized only second.

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11-17-2017 09:14 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4281

Year's ago...walkers were not the top dogs.....
Did they turn into the breeds they were bred to beat....or were they bred to win according to the rules of competition?
The Redbone Breed has not kept pace over the past 6 decades....and it has shown.
I do want to breed for winners...and that's been my goal from the start. If winning isn't what your after...then set your goals on something else...but nobody should be critical of those in this breed who want to breed a few lines of Redbones that can compete and win the top level hunts that are dominated by walkers.
I'm not breeding for a red dog just like walkers...im breeding for red dogs that can beat walkers at their own game. May never live to see that happen on a mass scale...but I am already seeing it here and there in a few every year so we just have to keep working on it and stay determined and focused and motivated.

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11-17-2017 09:37 PM

RedScorpion
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2011
Location: Northern Tier
Posts: 200

I might be wrong, but it seems like Walkers have always won from the start. Maybe I need to research it more.

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11-17-2017 10:04 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
.....but nobody should be critical of those in this breed who want to breed a few lines of Redbones that can compete......

I'm not breeding for a red dog just like walkers...im breeding for red dogs that can beat walkers at their own game......

I am not trying to be critical of what someone else wants to breed or hunt. I have said many many times...to each his own... Just because I breed, like or hunt a certain style of dog doesn't mean that I think everyone should. And I am not saying it is a bad thing but it sure does sound to me that you are looking for a red walker dog.

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11-17-2017 10:05 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4281

quote:
Originally posted by RedScorpion
I might be wrong, but it seems like Walkers have always won from the start. Maybe I need to research it more.

I said 6 decades or so....so go back and look at the world hunts or their equivalent in the 40s and 50s and I think you will find more off colored dogs were winning back then

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11-17-2017 10:13 PM

okreddog56
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2969

I DON'T KNOW IF MY DOGS WILL STACK UP WITH THE TOP WALKER DOGS UP NORTH IN THICK COON,BUT DOWN HERE IN THIN COON I AM WORKING ON THEM,JUST ASK THE TOP WALKER MEN IN THIS AREA WHAT MY DAZY FEMALE CAN DO,LAST YEARS STATE HUNT I DRAWED A WALKER FEMALE THAT WON $60,000 $HKC MONEY AND A LOT OF $KC MONEY SHE MAY BE HIGHEST MONEY WINNING WALKER FEMALE ALIVE,AND DAZY WAS 425+ AND SHE WAS IN THE HOLE,HER OWNER SAID HE HAD HERD DAZY WAS GOOD AND WANTED DRAW HER TO SEE WHAT SHE HAD,BUT HE DID NOT WANT TO DRAW HER ANY MORE,SO I KNOW I AM STACKING UP WITH THE HIGH WALKERS IN MY PART OF THE COUNTRY.

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11-17-2017 10:23 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4281

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I am not trying to be critical of what someone else wants to breed or hunt. I have said many many times...to each his own... Just because I breed, like or hunt a certain style of dog doesn't mean that I think everyone should. And I am not saying it is a bad thing but it sure does sound to me that you are looking for a red walker dog.

do you think walkers have the patent on those traits that allow them to win like they do?
Those traits are in every breed...but have not been concentrated to the same high levels and in the same combinations in other breeds as they have in walkers with the specific purpose of winning competition hunts.
Any breed can accomplish what they have ...IF....there are enough breeders who are dead serious about targeting specific traits and breeding for those as a top priority.
As you and others have always been so quick to point out...all breeds are mixed and go back to the same foundation hounds a few hundred years back. So what separated one breed from another? Some say only color...but I think it was the early breeders who bred for specific traits that differed from other breeds. Maybe color was one of them...but because different breeds show distinctly different "other traits" that can't be seen on the outside....ability traits, I believe the early breeders identified things they liked or didn't like and specifically bred for those things. Competition traits are probably a relatively new goal for breeders of hounds in the 300 plus years that men have actually been breeding trailing and treeing hounds. Before competition hunts it was probably more about having the game at the end of the chase than independence or first strike or first tree.
But.... in the past 60 to 70 years since competition hunts started and grew in popularity...many breeders (Not all breeders) have bred for traits that are needed for a dog to win according to established nite hunt rules.
And I submit to you that once that started....the breeders in some breeds have done a much better job and had much more success at concentrating those com petition traits in their breed of choice than other breeds have.
Personally I believe that breeds who were not so stuck on a particular color or outside appearance got a big jump on the other breeds because their breed standards were so wide open on color that they didn't have to consider that when making crosses and focused solely on performance and ability needed to win according to nite hunt rules.
I wasn't there at the beginning of this...but when I started hunting in the mid 80's I can tell you there were certain breeders in the walker breed like Lee Logan who didn't care how ugly their dogs were....all that mattered was if they could beat the dogs they drew in competition....and boy oh boy has a lot of ugly walkers won lots of world hunts and millions of dollars since then.
Walkers started with and still posses the same foundation hound genes that Redbones had....but walker breeders bred their dogs differently with different specific goals in mind and those goals were driven by competition hunt rules....not pleasure hunter or show dog goals.
Now they have a big jump on us in concentrating those specific abilities and traits it takes to win....but that doesn't mean we can't do the same thing....and keep some of the other things that makes Redbones unique. We don't have to breed for a red walker....we can breed for a Redbone that can beat walkers.

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11-17-2017 10:41 PM

jkhutch
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2009
Location: West Central Indiana
Posts: 1318

I’m not sure what everyone means by a Red Walker?? The fact is the style I was talking about above was bred to tree Coons fast and more of them. Isn’t that what we all want anyway?? Isn’t that original reason for a coondog is to tree Coons? I bet if the guys back in the 70’s and 80’s had dogs like today when they were hide hunting for $60 and $70 per hide they would love them. The style I’m talking about don’t woller around a track and rarely tree Coons in dens. I guess I look at it like driving somewhere to a destination. Are you the kind that takes a curvy backroad to get there that takes you twice long or do you take the interstate to get there and reach more destinations in less time? Hmmm something to think about.

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11-17-2017 11:15 PM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

quote:
Originally posted by jkhutch
..... Hmmm something to think about.

So what is more important....the journey or the destination?... :

I think that I have figured out a way to get that balance that I have been talking about. I will pleasure hunt my Redbones all week and get a high powered walker to hunt In the comp hunts on the weekends.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 11-18-2017 at 12:17 AM

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11-18-2017 12:12 AM

Donnie Stevens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2765

quote:
Originally posted by jkhutch
I’m not sure what everyone means by a Red Walker??

.

Me either lol. I've had some **** fine coon dogs that were walkers and I'd be tickled pink to have a redbone that hunted just like them.

Is there anything wrong with that ?

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11-18-2017 05:03 AM

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novicane65
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1565

My last post on this. If you're looking for a redbone that hunts like a high powered walker. One that busts a hole to back 40, and is looking for a medium to hot coon to bushwhack, that runs one like they're tied to it. Find as heavy of a brush buster dog as you can find. That's what the man bred them for. Extremely high drive in comparison to what is out there.

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11-18-2017 05:26 AM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4281

That's not the only line that produces some dogs with high level of drive...
There are several breeders who have that as a top priority over the years. They produce examples every year...but not at a high percentage and that's the problem.

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11-18-2017 06:01 AM

Donnie Stevens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2765

Can anybody tell me, besides color,what's the difference between a top notch walker coon dog and a top notch redbone coon dog ???

If I heard somebody say that red dog hunts like a walker I'd generally take that as a compliment to redbone.

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11-18-2017 06:14 AM

Crazy Luke
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 406

Breeding

I always say,"Watch what a person does not what they say." Every breeder and owner feeds their own dogs ,therefore they can do whatever they want. Thankfully no one tells us how to breed a redbone. At least not yet. Richard bred his gyp to Gr Nt Pigeon River Jim. He is a " say a little get deep with the meat coondog'', just like a lot of these Fireball/ Banjo III dogs I have messed with. Mandolin, PD River Rock, the Jon Henry dog, his sister Mandy II ,Pigeon River Jim, and now Pistol a son of Jon and Jon Jr. and I am sure their are many more I am not listing. All are dogs that get deep and stay gone and don't say a lot on the ground. If I was closer to the hunts I am sure Mandy II would be more well known. But these dogs are what the last part of this tread has been talked about. They are not perfect and I am thankful that Jon got down to GA and Brian Ratliff ,then Andrew Brian, a guy that is not even a redbone guy but likes to win and has with Jon. Any way we want to talk about how they do this or that, the game dictates that the faster it gets done the higher the score. Personally, if I want to here a bunch of noise in the woods.I will buy a pack of Fox hounds or beagles. I want to see coon eyes because that is what wins, coons in the tree. I tell people they all don't make top notch coon dogs. A lot will make some kind of coondog but when the genes line up and you get a great one, usually they can not be bought. Hunting a dog now that is off Lightnin and Speed Queen. When he is a grand he is 1/2 mine. He has the tools and some. Made Nt Ch a couple weeks ago and am gonna breed him to Mandy II. Wow do I hope the genes line up on the one I keep. They should be some burners. Hope to see you at a hunt soon. Good luck to all whatever your fancy.

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11-18-2017 01:45 PM

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RedScorpion
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2011
Location: Northern Tier
Posts: 200

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
...but not at a high percentage and that's the problem.

That is the real truth. I am glad that several admit to being breeders and are striving for their goal whatever it is. It is easy to sit back and take pot shots at those guys trying. This is not an easy task.

And when I read on here this line or that line really has drive, I am sure they do...but probably not as a high percentage across all crosses and all litters. That is just the way it is right now. I am not saying that there isn't entire litters with it, or most in the litter with it, but the percentages need to be raised. That is my goal.

...But consistency and a higher percentage of pups withe desire and drive is a really good thing in my mind. We can discuss how we get there, but all breeds need to move toward that goal in my opinion.

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11-18-2017 02:27 PM

jbiggert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 263

THANKS Rodger, for making pepper ann for me. Richard WALKER DOGS have been used by.... KINGS...not any other .So ( KING RICHARD ) TELL US WHAT CAN WE DO. Lead us to the great ukc world championship. I will stand by you my lord...

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Males

1) Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Nighty Nite Little Red - (Semen) (Gr. Nt. Yellow River Rocky X Nt. Ch. Gr. F Grw. Maggie)

2) Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch. Nighty Nite Red Cloud - 4 Years Old (Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. To The Max X Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight Pepper Ann)

3) Nighty Nite T - (Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight After Shock X Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight Pepper Ann)

Females

1) Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight Pepper Ann - 9 Years Old (Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Steps Little Pepper X Gr. Nt. Ch. Nighty Nite Moonlight Kate)

2) Gr. Ch. Nighty Nite Little Red Sky - 3 Years Old (Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Outlaw Red Moon X Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight Pepper Ann)

Last edited by jbiggert on 11-18-2017 at 02:34 PM

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11-18-2017 02:28 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Re: Breeding

quote:
Originally posted by Crazy Luke
I always say,"Watch what a person does not what they say." Thankfully no one tells us how to breed a redbone. Richard bred his gyp to Gr Nt Pigeon River Jim. He is a "little get deep with the meat coondog''..... Good luck to all whatever your fancy.

As I have "said" it is all about balance "to me". Jim gets too deep, is too independent and is very tight on track. My females are open mouth track dogs that have excellent noses and look for and try to work the first track they come to which sometimes gets them in trouble. But they will tree with another dog or by themselves, they don't care. So Jim was a logical choice (to me) to try to get balanced pups that "I" would like. If you want those leave the country, super independant, run anything then take a female that has those traits and breed her to Jim.

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11-18-2017 02:53 PM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

quote:
Originally posted by jbiggert
...... Lead us to the great ukc world championship. I will stand by you my lord... [/B]

Crazy, I have gotten too old and just a little senile. Apparantly times/dogs have changed. I am going to have to abdicate my throne to one of these younger guys. I am going to retire to just pleasure hunting and maybe raise a pup or two.

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11-18-2017 03:06 PM