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bob keese
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Posts: 72

Hunting Beagle vs Performance Pack?

Food for thought for the New Year.

Are Hunting Beagles dominating Performance Pack in your area?
Should they? Are we turning Performance Pack into a hard hitting, rough running Hunting Beagle Pack format? Should we?
What was Performance Pack like a few years ago. How about several years ago? Is it better or worst today? Should we continue this evolution?

Any options out there?

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Old Post 12-30-2014 01:42 PM
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yettez_beagles
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Cerro Gordo,IL
Posts: 253

The same page + Judging x consistency = success

That's my " performance pack formula" LOL

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Old Post 12-30-2014 02:46 PM
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Sundown Beagles
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Fresno Ohio
Posts: 2212

Bob, as one who has been around PP from the start I can tell you we always have and still promote a hound that is very accurate and can handle the front. With that said I have seen a change in judging styles and interpretations over the years and consistency amongst judges in different areas vary. This is an area we must improve on. I do believe when I turn my hound loose he does not know what format we are running. Therefore labeling a hound as a HB or PP style is very incorrect. We as judges are responsible for judging to the rules of whatever format we are running. Each judge has a responsibility to the sport to judge to the rules. Alan wrote a very good article this month on the need for PP judges. Rule seminars will help with making all judges more consistent and I believe you will be seeing more of these in the future.
Several of the first PP Champion hounds were HB Champions also.
I do feel true rabbit dogs can do both. Here is a very good example - Sundown Tess won the HB World Championship in 05. She was never the fastest hound in a HB pack but was a jump dog and extremely accurate on the line. She won that year in the finals because she scored a line by herself. The other line she was 3rd. She went on in 07 (I think) to win the PP World because of her jumping ability and accuracy on the track. So was she a HB or PP style dog.
Dogs should be judged as dogs and there ability not on reputations regardless of HB, PP, ARHA or AKC. It really all comes down to judging.

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Old Post 12-30-2014 04:09 PM
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Halfway2
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Markle,IN
Posts: 1570

I'll add to what Dave said. There are dogs that can compete and be successful in both formats. Labeling dogs as HB or PP dogs isn't exactly fair in my opinion. I'll use my Rocky dog for example. This year he placed 3rd in both Worlds. I'm pretty proud of that accomplishment. I've judged many dogs in PP and HB and I'll tell you there's quite a few GRPCH's out there that could be GRHBCH also very easily and vice versa. The reason is that they can run a track as fast as scenting conditions allow but run it with control. That's the way I was taught to judge in PP years ago. Now there's also dogs that should only be in one format or the other just because they don't really fit one format or the other.
Now the reason the PP hunts have dropped off in my area is lack of judges. The guys still like the format but we just don't have enough judges. I'm totally against giving a young kid his judging license just cuz he can run with the dogs. He or she still has to have dog knowledge. Just cuz they're barking doesn't always mean they're right. My club only has HB events cuz you can have a hunting judge and everyone has a vote. It sucks that PP is growing in some areas of the country and dying in other parts. It's too bad we can't fill that gap in the middle to join them all together. I understand terrain has a lot to do with what parts of the country to have PP hunts as where terrain really doesn't have an effect on the HB hunts

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Old Post 12-30-2014 04:23 PM
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JHayes
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2009
Location:
Posts: 374

I will agree we do need more judges, we also need more teachers! People that will put aside handling their dogs at a trial to go help the "new" inexperienced judges, take them out running dogs while not at a trial and teach them in a less pressured environment. I think rules seminars will help also, but in my opinion they will help mostly the new comers that are not set in their ways. I think all we can really ask for is that each judge be 100% honest and judge the same way everytime they judge. I do not feel that the judging will every be exactly the same in all regions of the country. Southern Indiana coal mine running is way different than running a cutover or briar patch in South Georgia, not only will the same exact dog run different in this areas but the style people like in this areas are different.
The PP rules are so open for the judge's interpretation for instance reaching or getting out of the check area is probably different for all of us. I know it says inside out no set distance but it all comes down to the judges opinion.... That's why I say we should ask for each judge to be the same each time and honest. I don't think we can ask every judge to make the same call the same way everytime all over the country.
I think we need to teach the new judges to not be afraid to give the third minus.... I feel like the third minus is not given sometimes for fear of upsetting the handler.... That should not be the case.

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Old Post 12-31-2014 09:04 PM
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Halfway2
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Markle,IN
Posts: 1570

Good point Mr. Hayes

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Old Post 01-01-2015 01:39 AM
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midvalleybeagle
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2008
Location: MARYLAND knoxville
Posts: 478

I will say this. Every club you go to promotes a different type of hound in pp. Yes it's true a great dog should do both. But judging for both should be totally different. Hb is all about first first across line first dog to bark and checks are few and far between in a good pack. Pp is more for a line control check getting type dog. I got a female finished in hb that has a win in pp but only has a win in pp because she actually drawled out with a judge that could keep up. I've gone to other clubs and not took my hard hitting front running dogs to pp and that's what wins. To me it's totally different style of dog. A dog in hb that has to have the front at any cost in pp should be caught swinging skirting rough running whatever u want to call it 3 strikes your out. But it doesn't happen. Dogs running wide open over running track a long ways not getting minused skirting hooking getting scored for babbling. Pp is relatively new and won't last unless it's set up different.
Great post Bob needed said I hate to see the program go down the tubes but there has got to be some consistency in the judging. Jmo.

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Old Post 01-01-2015 07:35 PM
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jford228
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Registered: Jul 2011
Location: OH, Cambridge
Posts: 500

HB and PP are two formats, rules are different. Some dogs fit one or the other more so. Some dogs do well in both. Its just that simple.

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Old Post 01-04-2015 11:17 PM
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bob keese
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2009
Location:
Posts: 72

quote:
Originally posted by jford228
HB and PP are two formats, rules are different. Some dogs fit one or the other more so. Some dogs do well in both. Its just that simple.


jford, i think you missed the question. The question is in your area "Is it just that simple" or in your area are the PP trials being judged like Hunting Beagle Pack trials and not like Performance Pack trials? No doubt there are beagles out there that have the speed, jump and hunt necessary for Hunting Beagle and the control, check work and nose for Performance Pack, but these should be few and far between, not the norm.

I have only run Performance Pack for 2 years and believe I have seen movement in this direction, I have heard judges expressing this concern, so I decided to ask the question. I am looking for the opinions from those that have run PP for many years in various parts of the country.

Just asking.

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Old Post 01-06-2015 06:24 PM
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jford228
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2011
Location: OH, Cambridge
Posts: 500

quote:
Originally posted by bob keese
jford, i think you missed the question. The question is in your area "Is it just that simple" or in your area are the PP trials being judged like Hunting Beagle Pack trials and not like Performance Pack trials? No doubt there are beagles out there that have the speed, jump and hunt necessary for Hunting Beagle and the control, check work and nose for Performance Pack, but these should be few and far between, not the norm.

I have only run Performance Pack for 2 years and believe I have seen movement in this direction, I have heard judges expressing this concern, so I decided to ask the question. I am looking for the opinions from those that have run PP for many years in various parts of the country.

Just asking.

To answer that question . It depends mostly on who is judging. Everything you are saying i agree with. Ive seen the same things you have witnessed. That being said, i might be the guy that shows up to a pp hunt with a hb style dog, just so i dont have to put up with the cheating that goes on in hb format.

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Last edited by jford228 on 01-06-2015 at 11:19 PM

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