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Preacher Tom
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 1108

Proven Cross

What's your definition of a proven cross? Previous pups will tree a coon? 3 out of 7 made dogs that were better than average? One pup won big? Etc. You see pups advertised all the time out of a proven cross but I'll bet that term means different things to different people. Please for discussion only. Don't criticize what some one else thinks.

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Old Post 09-28-2019 09:18 PM
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micooner
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: milan,mi
Posts: 1376

Proven cross to me means that a high percentage of the pups if given the chance will have the looks and abilities to make coondogs. Another way to look at it is the pups should be like the parents as much as possible.

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

Proven Cross

To me a proven cross is one where it is a repeat breeding of the same dogs because a high percentage of pups made good coon dogs or hunting dogs from the previous breeding...

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Cory Highfill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1074

No such thing without those pups getting in the right hands. I think "proven crosses" are made by "proven placement"...

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Ron Moore
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: WV
Posts: 821

Proven Cross??

There is no such thing IMO. I have personally made repeat crosses with totally different results. Too many variables! You may make 2/3 crosses on the same two dogs and get your best pups from the last litter instead of the 1st. It's all a grab bag. I wouldn't be afraid to get a pup from the 2nd or 3rd cross because you don't know when the next great one will pop up. Also, like said before, a lot depends on who's hands the pups are placed in. A dog must reach its full potential and if it's not given a chance then you can't judge that dog on it's ability. I talked to a breeder once of a nationally advertised stud. The litter that stud was out of was an outstanding cross where several were all titled out. He said they made that cross 3 more times and none were anywhere close to the first litter. I know there are repeat litters out there that had good success but I still believe it's all still a big chance. If the Sire and Dam are top coon dogs then get a pup whether it's the 1st or last cross. The chance is always there, IMO. You can take my opinion and $5 and it may get you a cup of coffee, . Have a great day.

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Bob Hennessey
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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: off the res.
Posts: 3415

quote:
Originally posted by Cory Highfill
No such thing without those pups getting in the right hands. I think "proven crosses" are made by "proven placement"...


X2

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Bob Hennessey
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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: off the res.
Posts: 3415

quote:
Originally posted by Cory Highfill
No such thing without those pups getting in the right hands. I think "proven crosses" are made by "proven placement"...


X2

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5103

.

I think each breeder has expectations in what the sire will produce and mixed with the genetics of certain females an expectation for a specific litter. Now if the pups live up to those expectations then that breeder could say it is a proven cross as it worked to his expectations. The breeders expectation might not be totally focused on coons treed or titles won. It could be temperament, looks, size and voice. Or many other things. If what the breeder visions before the mating is made. Comes out in the pups. Then he has a proven cross for what he visioned. That is why someone getting a pup should make sure their vision is the same as the breeders. You can get a pup from a proven cross, but it worn't work out because your vision for it is different than the breeders vision. There is a lot more genetically inside a pup than just treeing a coon. There is a lot more to having a finished hound than just the genetics inside it. The owner/trainer has to allow the good to flourish while keeping the negatives in check. That doesn't happen by sitting in the pen. The breeder might have been an expert in handling his pup and say he has a proven cross and you get a pup from the next litter and let it sit in a pen and don't deal with the negatives all pups have. Your dog from a proven cross will be a disappointment to you.

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Old Post 09-29-2019 02:49 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

Proven cross

No doubt about it...a lot falls on the buyer of the pup...many don’t appreciate what it takes to breed a great line of dogs...and some won’t like your dogs because of so and so traits like Bruce mentioned...

When I first started hunting hogs I tried many hog dogs and finally decided I had to breed my own...culled a few and finally found what I was looking for and then bred my own...it took a little while but I eventually had a yard full of dogs I liked...over generations dogs hunted harder and further to the point it was troublesome...but I never ever bred one that didn’t display the traits I wanted and I selected pups that also displayed natural tendencies of the things I liked in a grown hunting dog... I expected a dog to line out a hog in a few minutes if there was fresh sign...and go with that track...I also liked that a dog open two or three times on the track to pull in the rest of the dogs...I like my dogs to pack up...sometimes the dogs took their own hog and that is ok but not preferred...I like that long bawling locating location bawl too but mine usually do it only when running alone...
In those 6 generations or so I had a high success rate as a matter of fact every pup I kept made keepers but some didn’t make breeders on account of some physical trait or something such as no undercoat or underbite etc...

I do know when breeding my own dogs I am happier with the outcome...the worst thing I did was get rid of that line of dogs...

Now I am working on another and believe me I have culled many dogs...it is frustrating...I do have a few I like but am not sure how well they will breed at this time...I am hoping to get to a point where I can start a good foundation with what I have now...not to sell but for personal use...and I do give away a few pups now and then...

What doesn’t make sense to me is how many culls are out there...

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Redneck Mafia
UKC Moderator

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5822

From a great amount of experience usually crosses that work well the first time also work well with any future crosses and with similar results. Disposition, mouth and natural ability. Even with huge differences in looks size and color patterns within a litter the crosses that worked pretty much across the board will time and again.
I usually say 50% genetics and 50% environmental. Yes, you all are right on placement but without the genetics placement does not matter and without the placement genetics will never be brought to it's full ability.

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Preacher Tom
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 1108

I have an just turning 9 month old pup that I got from Cheyenne. First litter had some excellent results. This pup has everything it takes to make a coon dog. Will get treed by himself with the coon in a heartbeat. Hard tree dog. Great personality. He has a long way to go but is an exciting prospect. Now the question is why did Cheyenne let an old man like me have him. But I will say this, he will get hunted here.

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Old Post 09-29-2019 10:03 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

Sounds like you will have a great one to enjoy and hunt...good for you👍

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Old Post 09-29-2019 10:33 PM
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Redneck Mafia
UKC Moderator

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5822

quote:
Originally posted by Preacher Tom
I have an just turning 9 month old pup that I got from Cheyenne. First litter had some excellent results. This pup has everything it takes to make a coon dog. Will get treed by himself with the coon in a heartbeat. Hard tree dog. Great personality. He has a long way to go but is an exciting prospect. Now the question is why did Cheyenne let an old man like me have him. But I will say this, he will get hunted here.

Your last sentence answers your question. And he would be more than happy to hunt them in a few hunts for you later, all you have to do is say the word.

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Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER

RIP
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Old Post 09-29-2019 10:37 PM
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HOBO
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Weyers Cave Va
Posts: 13408

This topic gets beat to death.. If you don't believe in repeat/proven crosses then don't make them or don't buy from the second cross.

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Reuben
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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

Hobo...do you raise your own line of walkers?
Also, are your percentages of pups you keep turn out as acceptable hunting dog?

Personally I think the good breeders produce good dogs consistently because they follow a good system and know what a good dog is...

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Old Post 09-30-2019 01:05 AM
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HOBO
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Weyers Cave Va
Posts: 13408

I do and yes they do.

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Old Post 09-30-2019 01:46 AM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

I have had the same experience...a high percentage of excellent dogs...

maybe the competition rules need to be changed so only good dogs can win more often than not...if what I read is true a good handler can win with a dog that shouldn’t ever win...then John Doe comes along and is impressed with the papers and buys a pup or breeds the female to that champion stud...and then we have lots of culls running around...just theorizing on a possibility of why?

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