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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1910

quote:
Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Lets start with some paint
If i want a certain color(type) of paint they start with a base color then tint a little at a time to get my custom color.

If i just mix paints together, it's still "paint" but i am never really sure what the color will be, it will be "paint" but not always the color(or type?) i want. Sometimes i get lucky and it turns out to be the color i like, if i slowly mix the right paints.

But if i start with that base color and slowly tint i can have the color i enjoy. ... This is all my simple mind can handle ...lol



I believe that it takes at least three generations of good dogs bred in my back yard that come from good dogs before I will consider using one male to be the hub...meaning breeding him to a niece, daughter or granddaughter or even a great granddaughter...I call it purifying the bloodline to my standards...the cream rises to the top...at this point after great granddaughter I do not need to keep breeding new generations just breed the same dogs as I need pups...bust at some point it is time to start shopping...

I believe in hybrid vigor...at some point in time it is time to bring in new blood...find the best candidate and breed to one of the females...if a good percentage of pups are not acceptable get rid of all pups...these pups can be good enough for the average hunter but not for someone trying to breed better dogs...
Find another stud and let’s say a good percentage of pups look and act right then we keep as many as feasible...the pup we keep from this cross is very important to the program...this pup is a high quality pup that proves to be a keeper...this pup is the one that brings a small shot of hybrid vigor to the program and it still has 50% of the original bloodline in it so when bred back in to the bloodline the offspring will carry 75 percent of the original bloodline...

This is how I very carefully mixed the paint and it worked for me...maybe I got lucky...but I wasn’t trying to breed a world champion...just trying to breed a dog that looks good in any company...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 01-20-2018 12:08 AM
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DMW
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2018
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 47

Planning for the future

I think everyone will agree we all want to have "coondogs". What breed of coondog and what traits you want and the level you want them is up to you. So next time you consider breeding a bitch, take all the things that have been discussed into consideration. But ask you self a few questions and answer them honestly. If you answer no to any, don't breed her ever.

1. Will I be happy having another dog in my kennel just like her? (Is she aggressive, babbles excessively, etc. etc. etc..?)
2. Will I be unhappy having another dog in my kennel just like her any one of her ancesters?
3. Does she or has she had any medical problems that may be passed on?
4. Is she healthy enough to have puppies?

Now ask yourself if the stud dog meets or exceeds these same standards? If no, don't breed to him.

Of course most of us want to breed and our dogs get better and that's why we make the crosses we make.

The breeding plan we use is up to us as individuals. I will not give or sell a puppy from a litter that doesn't meet the standards above, I hope you are the same.

__________________
DMW
"Turn 'em loose!!!"
...."Wilkes' Ol' Cotton"... Passed December 2018... (Dohoney's Boone bred)
...."Wilkes' Zoom".... (Straight off Dohoney's Tom Horn)
...."Wilkes' Brooke".... (Sackett Jr., Slow Talking Buzz bred)
morganwilkes1.wixsite.com/wilkeswalkers

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Old Post 01-20-2018 04:52 PM
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thomasg
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: batsville ark
Posts: 1110

walker historical reproducers list top 10 . not 1 line breed dog on the list. blue tick breeders for the most part stick to one line like super glue . never been a world champion blue tick . LOL

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Old Post 01-20-2018 07:04 PM
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pamjohnson
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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

there is not 1 line bred bluetick on the repro list either and the world hunt winner as an example of successful breeding is not justice.

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Old Post 01-21-2018 02:57 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Mr Thomas, I know very little about walker dogs. Have you studied the pedigrees of those dogs or are you just looking at the Sire and dam listed? Aren't Sackett Jr and Hubs Homer line bred? Isn't Sunrise linebred? Isn't Cain's sire linebred?

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Old Post 01-21-2018 03:19 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1910

Walker hounds...I am sure there has to be excellent reasons why the walker hound is the most popular coon hound...I have read some of the original walker history on how they were developed...it seems the original breeders were were folks that set their standards at the highest level and didn’t take any shortcuts in developing their line of dogs...so the original base was set to produce great hounds...

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Old Post 01-21-2018 04:51 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

Here is an article from the Canine Chronicle, It's funny to me that most hound breeders fined this way foreign? Outcrossing is foreign to most all serious canine breeders, and yes hounds are canines. This is a good read........



Outcrossing – If, When, and Why?
442 – November/December,2015

By William Given

Inbreeding and linebreeding facilitate our ability to establish our own strain within our chosen breed. These breeding systems afford us the opportunity to more easily fix the characteristics we desire most within our strain. They are, however, not the only methods of breeding available to us.

Outcrossing is defined as the mating of two dogs that are totally unrelated. There are some breeders who would define outcrossing as the breeding of two dogs with no common ancestors in a four generation pedigree. That definition seems reasonable because the genes affecting the resulting progeny are concentrated in the first four generations. Outcrossing does offer its advantages, but any breeder who is mulling over the idea of an outcross breeding should do so only for a specified purpose.

There are some very good reasons why an experienced breeder would choose to make an outcross. The first is to bring into their line a characteristic that is absent. And, akin to the first reason, to build on a strength and make a good trait – an exceptional one. The second is to mitigate any faults that are provoked by homozygous recessive genes. And third, outcrossing is absolutely necessary when a breeding program shows a loss of vigor (sometimes referred to as inbreeding depression) as demonstrated by a lack of disease resistance or infertility.

The Results of Outcrossing

Perhaps more often than not, the puppies of a first-generation outcross of two excellent show dogs display many outstanding traits of their parents. That is why, when a good number of the first-generation puppies from outcross matings are doing so well in the show ring, their breeders and others who have noted this, rush to conduct similar breedings.

It is after the first generation of an outcross breeding that a breeder stands to lose everything gained from a successful outcross unless he or she breeds back into his or her established line. To be successful as a breeder, one must seek to produce puppies which are genetically dominant for all of the qualities required by the breed’s standard. The closer a breeder gets to the ideal, the more uniform in type the puppies and dogs the breeder produces will be. When a breeder uses more distantly related dogs or dogs with no common ancestors in their breeding program, he or she must expect less uniformity in the offspring.

Any virtues that are obtained through outcrossing cannot possibly be considered a part of the genetic constitution of a breeder’s strain until those traits have been fixed within the line through inbreeding or linebreeding. A breeder should consider outcrossing, quite simply, as a means to an end. Contrary to the belief of some breeders, a successful outcross cannot and will not cure all imperfections in a bloodline in one generation.

The inevitable tragedy is the young of the succeeding generations of outcross breeding will be a comparably heterogeneous lot, displaying what could easily be an absolute lack of uniformity. This will not only prevent the breeder from maintaining proper type, but will subject their line and the breed to an increase in differing types in size and structure.

These breeders do a disservice to their breed, and in as much as they are the ones primarily responsible for the increased differentiation in type, open up themselves for damage to their reputation. Uniformity and predictability in the quality of the puppies produced is the goal and the trademark of a good breeder.

When To Make an Outcross

If you were to ask me, “After how many successive generations of inbreeding or linebreeding should I make an outcross?” I would respond by asking you, “What will be the six winning lottery numbers for Saturday’s drawing?”

There is an old wives’ tale that says it is not safe to inbreed or linebreed more than three generations without the introduction of an outcross. Virtually every colleague that I queried on this matter has had an anecdote to share with me about when the “golden words of wisdom” were shared with them and by whom. When the fallacy originated that it is not safe to inbreed or linebreed more than three generations without an outcross nobody seems to know, but it is just not a valid premise. Breeders who believe that an outcross needs be made at some finite point as, for example, the previously mentioned third generation are giving credit to the old wives’ tale, and it is one to which some breeders seem to be particularly devoted.

There is also a popular belief that, “It is just plain good to bring in fresh blood to a line every now and then.” Nothing could be further from the truth. It is inbreeding and linebreeding that (if correctly utilized) facilitate the elimination of recessive factors that produce faults, and provide for the purification within a line or strain. It is the close-up breeding on the blood of one or more superior dogs that allow breeders to rapidly minimize the influence of the more faulty forebears and contribute to the establishment of distinct type.

Dangers of Continued Outcrossing

When superior results are obtained in the first generation of an outcross, many breeders think the breeding was an unprecedented success and all that needs be done thereafter is to continue such outcrossing to become a great breeder with an established type of their own, producing a high average of very exceptional puppies. They could not be more mistaken, since the exact opposite is surely to occur.

As a general rule, the progeny of first-generation, outcross breedings are very often quite uniform in appearance. Many of the puppies being even more correct than the sire and dam. However, if not bred back into the original line, it is the puppies from succeeding generations of such outcrosses that can be particularly disappointing. This is because they carry so many genes for all of the characteristics in which their parents differed, that those puppies show great variation. This includes a sizeable portion of puppies of less than show and breeding quality.

I would inform some and remind others that, genetically, outcrossing and cross-breeding (Labrador Retriever to Poodle, for example) differ only by the measure of degree. Both involve the breeding of two individual dogs whose genetic composition varies so widely that there must be a significant rearrangement of genes in the offspring produced.

As breeders, we must be concerned not only with the physical conformation of the sire and dam, but also with the genes inherited from all of their more direct progenitors. It must be remembered that outcrossing is just as likely to weaken or diminish positive traits that are already fixed as to add those which were lacking and highly desired.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Old Post 01-21-2018 06:24 PM
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DMW
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2018
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 47

Yes, great article

Here's one I read on the AKC website

In choosing the best dogs for a breeding, skilled breeders do not look at win records as the major deciding factor. It is the pedigree and how the individual dog “fits” with the breeding program that really counts.

How does the experienced breeder choose which dogs to consider pursuing as part of her breeding program? First the breeder evaluates her own dogs as objectively as possible, asking questions such as What are the outstanding characteristics that I really want to keep in the next generation? and Where are areas that are less desirable and need improving?

Then the breeder looks at the pedigrees of the dogs she plans to breed in the future. (And not just the immediate litter; this is long-term planning.) Have these dogs been line-bred? Inbred? Out-crossed? Any book about breeding will give careful definitions for each of these terms; that isn’t what is important here. The issue is really about how often the same ancestors appear in those pedigrees—both within them and across them. The advantage to breeding closely related dogs is that by doing so you get a lot of homozygous gene pairs. What does that mean?

OK, here is a quick, very basic genetics lesson:

Characteristics that you see when you look at the dog all come from a complex of interactions of gene pairs, where one half of each pair is from the dam and the other is from the sire. Some of these genes are recessive and hide, while others are dominant and don’t hide. There may be more than two possibilities at any spot on the chromosomes, but each individual only gets two of them. Most of the time, these pairs interact with other genes to create the final dog we see.

When you do a lot of close breeding, the gene pool is limited. This means that with repetition, you get pairs consisting of two identical genes—what geneticists call homozygous pairs. Sometimes this is a very good thing, and sometimes it is not. It depends on what the genes are controlling. When you do this kind of breeding, however, you will get great consistency. Since there are limited genes to pick from, the result will be the same over and over again. At the opposite extreme is a pedigree where very few or no ancestors are repeated. This results in a more diverse gene pool and many heterozygous gene-pairs. These are pairs where the two genes are different. That will result in a wider variety of combinations and much less consistency. It will also allow the production of litters with new combinations, and thus new characteristics.


So what is the breeder to do? He decides what he wants to accomplish. Want to add new things to improve the quality of your line? Outcross with a line that has those characteristics you want. Want to be sure to keep the great things you have? Breed closely to get a very consistent litter. When you know what you want, then you can plan to attempt to create the result you desire.

—Gail Knapp, Ph.D., J.D., Great Pyrenees Club of America

__________________
DMW
"Turn 'em loose!!!"
...."Wilkes' Ol' Cotton"... Passed December 2018... (Dohoney's Boone bred)
...."Wilkes' Zoom".... (Straight off Dohoney's Tom Horn)
...."Wilkes' Brooke".... (Sackett Jr., Slow Talking Buzz bred)
morganwilkes1.wixsite.com/wilkeswalkers

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Old Post 01-21-2018 08:32 PM
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DMW
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2018
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 47

A little off the subject

My first and second hounds I ever owned we're redbones. To make a long story short they were not up to Parr. (Not talking bad about Redbones, I love redbones)The people I started hunting with that could tree coons had Walkers so of course that's what I've been hunting ever sense.

I have had a love for Redbones since I was a little Kid. I think they are the best looking hounds of all and I know there are great ones. I just haven't had the pleasure of hunting with any.

I want to go hunting with some good Redbones!! (Definition of good, will tree coon and not run trash) If you have some and don't mind me visiting and tagging along one Saturday night, let me know. I would very much appreciate it.

I live right in the middle of South Carolina. I don't mind driving a few hours for a good hunt.

Morgan Wilkes
803-429-7867

__________________
DMW
"Turn 'em loose!!!"
...."Wilkes' Ol' Cotton"... Passed December 2018... (Dohoney's Boone bred)
...."Wilkes' Zoom".... (Straight off Dohoney's Tom Horn)
...."Wilkes' Brooke".... (Sackett Jr., Slow Talking Buzz bred)
morganwilkes1.wixsite.com/wilkeswalkers

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Old Post 01-21-2018 09:04 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1910

Tom Brady is awesome...

We can breed better dogs by studying pedigrees and through first hand experience hunting with some of the dogs in the pedigree...we can be very intense on picking the right dogs to breed...

We need to put just as much effort in selecting the puppies that we keep...

many folks will say to close your eyes and pick a pup because it is all luck...I somewhat agree because there is a lot of truth to that...but I believe that there will be pups that are born to NATURALLY hunt, wind, trail and located etc...so we test for these traits...I look to see how much effort it takes for the pups to do these tasks...some take to these tasks like a duckling takes to water...those pups I call naturals...these pups are born with a healthy dose of the right traits (genetic Make-up) for that test such as for finding...there will be pups that can or will be good in most tests so these are the ones I would keep a close eye on...

when it is time to start training these pups they will catch on pretty quick...and their genetic make up is right for the breeding pen more often than not...these are the dogs I am interested in for breeding...and we shouldn't have to feed these pups many tracks to make decent dogs out of them (naturals)...

the other pups that didn't react right away to the testing I will encourage to learn to find and wind etc...it does not mean they won't make hunting dogs...but some of these might need more track fed to them to make good dogs...

we can disagree on this subject...but I will do whatever I think will improve my chances on selecting the best pups...

as breeders it is our responsibility to do the best we can...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 01-22-2018 12:06 AM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1910

I talk about testing for winding, trailing, treeing and finding...looking for the naturals In the litter...everything we are looking for is connected to the brain...so in reality we are finding out what comes natural to the puppies brain more than anything else...

We can call it mental aptitude...or maybe brain power??? Some of us believe that the difference between a great dog and a once in a lifetime dog is brain power...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 01-22-2018 01:53 AM
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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

.

On the subject of OUTCROSSING Walker hounds. I have looked at a lot of walker pedigrees over the years and I would like to make a statement and see if you agree or disagree.

I think it would be hard today to breed two walkers that are not Family Bred. And in many cases Line Bred.

I know what the books say and they vary, but I think most of us have a different feeling on exactly when the background stop contributing to the pups. Some say after 3 generations. Some use a different number.

I think we should look at our families and see just who influenced the looks and actions of the kids. Might give you an insight on our dogs. I hope most of the offspring in the families are Outcrossed but none the less you can see there are different people people in the family structure that put a stamp on what is happening.

I think the one most important thing you can learn from watching families is you start to understand just how much environment comes into play with the outcome of offspring. I know one young man that was raised by a good man that is not is biological father. The young man grew up to have the same actions and gestures as his non related Father. I think if people wanted to improve their hounds they should start with their environment. The reason being is that for the most, most litter of pups born today actually have some pretty good genetics in them.

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Old Post 01-22-2018 12:08 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

Bruce, I wish i could agree with you, but when i look at the Treeing Walker lines, i see almost no line bred hounds.
A family member mixed in here or there does nothing except slightly increase odds, because the outcross watered it down.

We use people as examples on breeding because that is what we know and see, but they are a one generation cross, although they can be marked by an individual on looks each generation that fades.


We do not want to set traits in people, we do in livestock, hounds etc.... And the only way in the world to set traits is to closely breed family members. Cull bad traits and purify the bloodline.

I only know this because i grew up in a part of the country that had lots of breeders in it, top cattlemen, top game rooster men, and there bloodlines were Gold to them.

I also see where the majority of people cannot or do not like the culling process, have the time or ability to keep several family members at a time and have a stigma about inbreeding animals.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Old Post 01-22-2018 01:35 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

.

Conrad you will never ever here me say that Genetics doesn't work when your dealing with what you described. Cows, Pigs, even crops. The big difference is the results of their genetics that can be weighed, measured and recorded on farm animals or crops. In other words they are genetics that the results are Tangible. With our hounds you get past color, about everything else in Intangible. Yes one person and his opinions on how the breeding turns out can maintain something that is intangible. But as soon as you get two coon hunters breeding the same line the have different OPINIONS and the line is lost. I have seen if for years and have no faith in OPINIONS.
An example would be Old Timer on here. He has had his hounds for years and he has probably controlled a line of hounds he enjoys. As soon as he sells or give one away and he is not involved with the breeding them. I would almost bet, what he worked for starts to get lost. Even if the people are well meaning and their opinions are they are doing the right thing. In todays world, men like Old Timer and others are getting lost in the coonhound world and the names of those that won the last $10,000 hunt are replacing them and their hounds, right or wrong are getting bred.

Also with coon hunters. Most see a name and breed for it and not the actual breeding behind the name. Say, Stylish Harry was 3 generations back or any other known dog. The market the pups with the known name when the pups characteristics can so removed from the dog it is.

Over the years the pups I have seen, most have been above average as a pup, mainly because I knew the parents. That means, you don't have to beg them to hunt, run a coon or tree. As an adult dog they could tree you a coon and most would be happy with it, a lot of that has to do with environment. On the other hand. Some of the pups with the biggest problems that environment couldn't fix were line bred. Maybe to close, but none the less line bred.

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Old Post 01-22-2018 03:08 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

There is an old wives’ tale that says it is not safe to inbreed or linebreed more than three generations without the introduction of an outcross. Virtually every colleague that I queried on this matter has had an anecdote to share with me about when the “golden words of wisdom” were shared with them and by whom. When the fallacy originated that it is not safe to inbreed or linebreed more than three generations without an outcross nobody seems to know, but it is just not a valid premise. Breeders who believe that an outcross needs be made at some finite point as, for example, the previously mentioned third generation are giving credit to the old wives’ tale, and it is one to which some breeders seem to be particularly devoted.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Old Post 01-22-2018 03:25 PM
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novicane65
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1565

Since there's a bunch of guys that have pups from known dogs from more than 2-3 generations back in pedigrees. How far back are you seeing traits from behind the 3rd generation? And did these traits show up in any of the 2nd or 3rd gen? I've talked to several guys that don't bother looking at papers past the 3rd. Wondering how you all felt about this.

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Old Post 01-22-2018 08:13 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

Man, This William Given guy is a good read:

When superior results are obtained in the first generation of an outcross, many breeders think the breeding was an unprecedented success and all that needs be done thereafter is to continue such outcrossing to become a great breeder with an established type of their own, producing a high average of very exceptional puppies. They could not be more mistaken, since the exact opposite is surely to occur.

As a general rule, the progeny of first-generation, outcross breedings are very often quite uniform in appearance. Many of the puppies being even more correct than the sire and dam. However, if not bred back into the original line, it is the puppies from succeeding generations of such outcrosses that can be particularly disappointing. This is because they carry so many genes for all of the characteristics in which their parents differed, that those puppies show great variation. This includes a sizeable portion of puppies of less than show and breeding quality.

I would inform some and remind others that, genetically, outcrossing and cross-breeding (Labrador Retriever to Poodle, for example) differ only by the measure of degree. Both involve the breeding of two individual dogs whose genetic composition varies so widely that there must be a significant rearrangement of genes in the offspring produced.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Old Post 01-22-2018 08:26 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

Hence...... GRNTCH to GRNTCH

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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Old Post 01-22-2018 08:28 PM
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novicane65
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1565

I'm not asking about grnitch to grnitch. I want first hand knowledge of your results. Have you seen traits from 4th generation and back further that you didn't see in the 3rd forward?

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Old Post 01-22-2018 08:47 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

novicane65, I will try and answer the best I can, I based my breedings off an exceptional female that we had, was a coondog and threw coondogs , mated to several sires and reproduced to all. So she is the standard that i base all that come after her, do they act like her, hunt like her etc... Now I mate her sons and daughters that act like her, and bought semen from her Grandfather to use back on Grandaughters.
I don't know what the rest did( family before her), I did not own them to actually see the traits.But have good ideas where her traits came from, from conversations.
. As far as the ones i have owned, they carry her traits and i can usually see them very young age, and I know the ones that act different.

Also note: If a dog is not multiple times in a pedigree, it has been washed out, each breeding reduces a dog 50%, so it does not take long to lose one.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Old Post 01-22-2018 09:47 PM
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Jgarrett
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2012
Location: AR
Posts: 291

quote:
Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
novicane65, I will try and answer the best I can, I based my breedings off an exceptional female that we had, was a coondog and threw coondogs , mated to several sires and reproduced to all. So she is the standard that i base all that come after her, do they act like her, hunt like her etc... Now I mate her sons and daughters that act like her, and bought semen from her Grandfather to use back on Grandaughters.
I don't know what the rest did( family before her), I did not own them to actually see the traits.But have good ideas where her traits came from, from conversations.
. As far as the ones i have owned, they carry her traits and i can usually see them very young age, and I know the ones that act different.

Also note: If a dog is not multiple times in a pedigree, it has been washed out, each breeding reduces a dog 50%, so it does not take long to lose one.



How close in the pedigrees of the dogs you are hunting now is this exceptional female you speak of?

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Old Post 01-22-2018 10:38 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

She is Grand dam on both top and bottom.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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Old Post 01-22-2018 11:17 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

The goal is to line breed a nice family of hounds and cross on another nice line bred family of hounds to produce hybrid vigor.


Again more from William Given
The Right Balance
Inbreeding and linebreeding should always go hand in hand with judicious outcrossing to ensure the continued overall health, fertility, intelligence and temperament of your dogs. Inbreeding and linebreeding can certainly produce the spectacular individuals that you have long dreamed of, but Mother Nature has proven over and over again that the greatest “meshes” (breeding that consistently produce outstanding specimens) are often those that occur between two unrelated (though possibly linebred within themselves) individuals whose genes combined to produce what is commonly referred to as hybrid vigor.
Geneticists readily admit that they are not quite sure why it is that hybrid vigor works, but there is no arguing with the fact that in certain circumstances the breeding of two unrelated lines will result in the genesis of a litter of dogs that are far superior to their parents. This is especially true in the context of traits that are controlled by a number of different genes, rather than those that are expressed very specifically. Two examples of the latter would include working ability and intelligence. The former consists of a variety of alleles controlling traits such as conformation and movement. Size, which is genetically programmed, can be affected strongly by environmental factors such as the lack of proper nutrition. Bone is generally considered to be moderately heritable, and along with substance seems to rely in part on its genetic dominance in certain breeds or bloodlines. Thus it is that increased heterosity, or the exposure through breeding to a broader array of genetic material, increases the chances of a given dog inheriting the combination of genetic code that will result in superior show dogs.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Old Post 01-23-2018 12:05 AM
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Reuben
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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1910

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
[B

I think the one most important thing you can learn from watching families is you start to understand just how much environment comes into play with the outcome of offspring. I know one young man that was raised by a good man that is not is biological father. The young man grew up to have the same actions and gestures as his non related Father. I think if people wanted to improve their hounds they should start with their environment. The reason being is that for the most, most litter of pups born today actually have some pretty good genetics in them. [/B]


There is no doubt in my mind about the environment playing a big roll as well...a good handler involved in a pups training is also a part of the pups environment...

An inexperienced handler training the same pup would more than likely have a different outcome with the pup...

Back in the 1960s and even in the 1980s many people believed line breeding and inbreeding would produce retarded and deformed dogs...

I thought I would say that before I present my next theory...as a matter of fact there are scientists who have studied this and basically say the same thing but in excellent detail...I consider this to be a part of the environmental conditioning but in its earliest stages...I think that many folks haven’t heard this before or if they have do not agree in this point in time...i have explained it in another thread on here so I won’t go into detail...it is creating the right environment for the puppies while in gestation and even before per scientific research...I strongly believe in it...I will post an article if I can find it...

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Old Post 01-23-2018 12:48 AM
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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

.

Conrad, I think we are singing the same tune now. I will have to read this about 5 more times to make sure I understand it but this is where I am at. I feel I have the ability to know when to stop line breeding and make that outcross. I think Bad Habit could be used as an example to what was written below. I feel he was a prime example of two lines of hounds crossed to produce one of the best.
You breed like you described and have the proper environment for the pups and most would be happy with the results. Then you make a choice for the next generation to keep the outcome from the cross. Which probably should be line breeding on the side that has the characteristics you like.


The goal is to line breed a nice family of hounds and cross on another nice line bred family of hounds to produce hybrid vigor.


Again more from William Given
The Right Balance
Inbreeding and linebreeding should always go hand in hand with judicious outcrossing to ensure the continued overall health, fertility, intelligence and temperament of your dogs. Inbreeding and linebreeding can certainly produce the spectacular individuals that you have long dreamed of, but Mother Nature has proven over and over again that the greatest “meshes” (breeding that consistently produce outstanding specimens) are often those that occur between two unrelated (though possibly linebred within themselves) individuals whose genes combined to produce what is commonly referred to as hybrid vigor.
Geneticists readily admit that they are not quite sure why it is that hybrid vigor works, but there is no arguing with the fact that in certain circumstances the breeding of two unrelated lines will result in the genesis of a litter of dogs that are far superior to their parents. This is especially true in the context of traits that are controlled by a number of different genes, rather than those that are expressed very specifically. Two examples of the latter would include working ability and intelligence. The former consists of a variety of alleles controlling traits such as conformation and movement. Size, which is genetically programmed, can be affected strongly by environmental factors such as the lack of proper nutrition. Bone is generally considered to be moderately heritable, and along with substance seems to rely in part on its genetic dominance in certain breeds or bloodlines. Thus it is that increased heterosity, or the exposure through breeding to a broader array of genetic material, increases the chances of a given dog inheriting the combination of genetic code that will result in superior show dogs.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 01-23-2018 at 01:33 AM

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