Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Just wondering if anyone else is looking for the same dog I am. Not the dog you have to teach how to do everything. Not the dog you have to discourage off trash, shock off bad tracks. The one you have to chase away from you with a switch and most importantly not the dog you wonder if it will have a coon when you get to the tree.

Thats the dog I am looking for. Take it to the woods. Open the dog box door and get out of its way. Then go get it off a tree and repeat the process.

Now I have seen several this style that did things almost perfect but they didn't have enough coon. That really gets me to thinking.

Having the coon. Some dogs have the ability to have the coon when they tree. It is not something I ever taught one t do. It is the ability that some of them just have. I think it is easier for the hot nosed dog to be accurate but that really isn't the one I am looking for. I am looking for the trail/track dog that has the coon. . Like many of you I have tried to determine what trait I see in the dog that makes this happen. That way I can look for it in young dogs and save a lot of time.

I would like to hear from you what makes the accurate dog just that. Accurate. The one that seems to manufacture coon while the other ones are struggling.

I am watching one now mature that seems to be different in a good way. What I like is some of the things he does takes time to do but he does it quicker than the dogs not doing what he does which means he is accurate and quick. Sometimes the sure hound is a little slower on settling. Not this one.
Here is what I see is helping with his accuracy and I would love to hear what you thinks makes yours accurate or what you look for in a young dog that gives you a warm feeling he has the ability to be accurate.
1. He runs a track well with some speed.
2. When he gets close to the tree the coon is in. He wants to wind the coon and almost looks like he wants to see the coon. I don't know how good a dogs eyes are. But when I see this dog looking up and focused on a tree and the coon is there. It has me thinking he can see that coon. I am not just talking about barking on the side of a tree with their head up. I am talking about treeing and looking with a focus on something.

Let me hear your thoughts on what traits you have seen in your dogs that help make them accurate or what you see in a young dog that makes your think they will be accurate.

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

The handler. Hands down most important.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Mr Conkey, I hunted that dog last night. We made 5 trees and I saw 5 coons. But he was gone when I woke up this morning.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Al
Posts: 3070

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Mr Conkey, I hunted that dog last night. We made 5 trees and I saw 5 coons. But he was gone when I woke up this morning.

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Well Stanley,this looks like another fine mess you've gotten us into

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3369

Bruce, I call it locating ability. Just like some dogs are superior track dogs, some are better at locating the correct tree. Hunters talk strike , trail and tree. Locating is a trait you don't head mentioned much. I have a female now that's the most accurate dog I've ever seen. My hunting buddy says it's like she knows where the coon is before you release her. I don't know how to recognize this in a pup until you start hunting it. There's a few thing about her I'd like to change, but having the coon isn't one of them. She's a blue tick.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Al
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quote:

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Originally posted by shadinc
Bruce, I call it locating ability. Just like some dogs are superior track dogs, some are better at locating the correct tree. Hunters talk strike , trail and tree. Locating is a trait you don't head mentioned much. I have a female now that's the most accurate dog I've ever seen. My hunting buddy says it's like she knows where the coon is before you release her. I don't know how to recognize this in a pup until you start hunting it. There's a few thing about her I'd like to change, but having the coon isn't one of them. She's a blue tick.

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Well Stanley,this looks like another fine mess you've gotten us into

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3369

She's mostly out of Gary Utchman's stock. Her sire is dual Ch. Gray's Creek Case. Her dam is out of Utchman's Thorn.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1657

I think desire to get hold of a coon and superior tracking ability. too many dogs main desire is to tree. The most accurate ones for me were the ones you had to fight to take a coon away from. If they have the right desire and tracking ability they will show you eyes.

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

I've been looking for that perfect dog since 1972 and the only thing scarcer is someone who recognizes it when they see it. The only truly accurate locator is one that sees the coon climb or the one that trees off body scent and trees where the coon is and not where he was.

I see dogs that constantly win by putting coon up and trailing on only to finally stay hooked on the coon that kicks bark in their face.

The great ones are born with the ability to run a cold track with their head in the air, tree off body scent and are just as accurate on a frost covered coon that has been sleeping in a tree for hours as they are on a hot corn field coon. They are also highly intelligent with extreme desire.

I wasted most of my life hunting dogs with natural ability that were too dumb to ever advance to "outstanding". In most cases these were highly recommended by the coon hunters experts who were also hunting dumb dogs with natural ability.

This advice is for the youth as most mature hunters have lied to their buddies so long that they even believe it. Ken Risley

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Registered: Feb 2005
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I call that trait ...... "Brains", intelligence or just plain ole coon sense.
FEW have it...... MOST don't .

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

I still feel the handler and or trainer is most important. I see some variation in the dogs for sure. Some things to look at with the trainer.. do they pet them up on every tree? Do they use a squaller? Will they correct them for treeing off game such as squirrel? Will the dog be hunted alone or in company Etc

The dog needs to be a quality track dog .a.straight dog. And eventually be very independent if expected to do well in hunts.

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5637

You sound like a man who has become jaded, dogs are just dogs, we can't make them something they aren't. Natural ability in my eyes, is just that, it's something that does not have to be put there, as they already have it. Hunting should just polish or hone that natural ability. Dogs with true natural ability should definitely make a better coondog, if handled properly. You should be the one deciding the type of dog you hunt not leaving it up to the "experts" as you stated. I have hunted over 50 years and seen my share of dogs, and I have not seen many that I would call outstanding. Outstanding dogs are extremely scarce or have been in my neck of the woods. I have my own measuring stick and do not rely on someone else's opinion. My standards may be different than other people's standards, and that's okay with me. Lying to yourself is useless and serves nothing! As Bruce Conley said " things you accept are things you never change", personally, I am always looking for something better. Dave

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Registered: Feb 2018
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very well.said Dave!!!!!! I like the quote and those are true words to live by !! I like it !! the younger generation myself included needs to learn from the past generation to make the sport the hound and the hunting community better as a whole settling will never make any difference for anyone or anything ...

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkinriver
I think desire to get hold of a coon and superior tracking ability. too many dogs main desire is to tree. The most accurate ones for me were the ones you had to fight to take a coon away from. If they have the right desire and tracking ability they will show you eyes.

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
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Bruce, I have the dog you are describing except I had to break him off trash. He trees off body scent and he will be watching where the coon is in the tree a lot. We watched him traveling down the side of a lake and just turn out into the lake. Swim 150 yards and tree on a lone cypress. We shined from the bank and could see his coon looking and him swimming around it treeing. Called his name twice and he came straight to me. He was born like that. Wide open on the ground and runs a lot of coon down and catches them on the ground. Pretty as a picture and has a huge mouth. He does have holes but I can live with them.

I can give you numbers of guys that have hunted with him several times and have never seen him miss. Even have them on the outside of dens. That's not saying he doesn't miss because he certainly has but its definitely not a habit. No one can train a dog to have what he has he was simply born that way and I was lucky enough to get him.

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

What I was trying to say is that the highest level of natural ability needs to be identified and located if you want an outstanding hound. My advise to young hunters is don't take advise from other hunters. Don't believe if you don't see it. I found that most hunters outstanding dogs were actually just nice dog of average ability and average intelligence. Don't concentrate on just natural ability if you want a superior performing dog. Mr. Conkey asked for opinions of what made an outstanding accurate treedog and my opinion is that locating off body scent and the desire to run a cold track to catch is a must for an outstanding performing dog. Some of the most accurate locators might take several minutes to settle on a tree, but they would be looking at the coon. I believed the coonhunting experts more than I should have! Go hunt with them if possible and make up your own mind. That's my opinion. It will save a lot of worn out boots. Most hunters are satisfied with a nice dog of average ability that is a natural, but no amount of hunting by the very best handler will ever make it outstanding.

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: Harleton Texas
Posts: 488

I got started in the early to mid 80's . I didn't even know dogs slick treed . Not to start a Lipper controversy but my first good one was out of Lipper and a dual grand named Honey ( Spring Creek Rock X Dehoneys Caddilac ) . Loud probably one of the coldest nosed dogs on earth cut / slash a track and had the goods pretty much all the time . Pups out of her were the same and their pups the same . High percentage of pups made it in all litters . I stopped hunting for a while as my son was in my opinion a gifted baseball player and when I started back my hounds were old and died out . It took a while to get the right dogs back but the accuracy compared to those dogs from the 80's are not as good but not too shabby . I had 20 spots of big timber then and now I share the same 4 spots with others is the mane difference . I guess I'm rambling on but honestly I'm 100%sure I'm not tough enough to hunt the dogs I used to . I hunt Drum bred dogs crossed on a Stylish Clover grandaughter and mixed a little Trackman in there and I've reached some balance finally but the lean a little more to the ground and pound style . I'm curious what bloods everyone else is happy with ?

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
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I have never hunted with you or your dogs, but I really believe that you have some pretty good hounds based on Penny's wins and the compliments from your fellow hunters. I agree with you on some points and disagree on some other points. It does take an exceptional locating dog to make my outstanding list, but that is a natural ability that one can not train a dog to do. Natural ability must exist if one ever makes an exceptional dog. Proper training is also necessary , but plays second fiddle to natural ability. The recipe for a coondog changes depending where you live and hunt. Dog styles work totally different depending on where they are hunted, but a truly outstanding dog will adapt pretty quick, at least in my experience. Dave

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Ken, are you suggesting that intelligence in a dog is not natural ability? You made the statement that young hunters should not rely strictly on a dogs natural ability! Yet you made the statement that high degree of natural ability along with intelligence is required to make an outstanding dog! I agree that it takes both, but I contend that intelligence is part of the natural ability. We can not make a dumb dog smarter no more than we can teach a dog to wind tree, or trail a cold track, or do anything for that matter! We can only deter behavior that we don't want and provide the opportunities for the dogs to hone their skills. You gave great advice for anyone wanting a dog and that is to hunt with a man's dogs to see if they possess the traits you desire in a dog. If you don't see those abilities or traits, then they aren't there. I am always eager to learn something new, please share with me [and the board] any tips to train intelligence or put something in a dog that's not just natural ability. My guess as to why outstanding dogs are so rare, is the rarity of a great trainer getting a great prospect. Lol. Dave

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Last edited by Dave Richards on 08-01-2018 at 07:39 AM

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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: batsville ark
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shock off bad tracks ? thats insane . lol its the determined track dogs that will have 2 looking down 90 % of the time . both the dogs i have now i have seen when the going gets tuff start sniffing and checking trees till they find the right one when they cant take a loose any farther .lol i would rather have a dog that dont finish a track as one that has to be whooped of empty trees.i can t live with out those action packed bug eyed l 120 bark a minute slick treeing one bark died on the wood wanna bees a coon hound . lol if you cant find a determined track dog get a hot nosed dog . i had a border collie that hated coons might have missed 1 or 2 a year that we had to buy a mule to carry the hides with .lol with the way walkers are breed up today you might want to infuse some new blood into them with a x.bred cross or a shot of mt cur or running hound .. another thing i do is in the training . i dont leash them at the tree . i believe leashing them when starting them out if it is slick reinforces the bad behavior and only confuses them if you do decide to send them on . 5 out out of 10 dogs dont have enough brains between their ears for sending them on to work anyhow . other wise the process would not be needed on a nightly basis . lol the tree trait is to bound up in their genetic make up over riding any amount of correction and training to produce a positive out come .

Last edited by thomasg on 08-01-2018 at 12:58 PM

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Had a fair hunt this morning. First tree was within 15 minutes and two dogs had the coon. Decided to shoot it out as my dog hasn't seen but one coon it has treed since his puppy training with a caged coon, several months back.

That didn't work very well as the second drop all he would do is hang around the buggy wanting the coon. The other young dog of Coreys went off and got treed about 900 yards from us. We were able to drive to the edge of a field and he was 400 yards down on the fence row which made it easy.
Couldn't find the coon so Corey called that one slick. We call it a morning.
I have let a few things creep into my hunting that isn't good for any pup I am working. I need to tighten up on my standards as I have a nice prospect that has some rough edges.

Man the water is deep. Had it up to my calves sitting in the 4 wheeler several times today. Never thought I would consider a snorkel on one just to drive trails.

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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: batsville ark
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bruce the best way i have found to seek out trailing traits is to start them out on rabbits to evaluate them at a young age . a pup at 4 to 6 months of age who can run a rabbit and pick up looses while trailing will make the trailing type for coon if thats the type hound you are seeking .

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Registered: Feb 2012
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I can give you numbers of guys that have hunted with him several times and have never seen him miss. Even have them on the outside of dens. That's not saying he doesn't miss because he certainly has but its definitely not a habit. No one can train a dog to have what he has he was simply born that way and I was lucky enough to get him. [/B][/QUOTE]
Michael
I agree ya may not be able to train a dog to be that good but I guarantee you that I know plenty of hunters that could turn that dog into an average dog or even a slick treeing idiot.

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3369

I don't think Bruce was asking for training advice. AND I don't like to think of a dog as smart or intelligent. Anything that can get hit by a car not and learn to stay off the road isn't very smart. We breed dogs to have certain traits. When they have these traits we apply human tags on them like smart or intelligent. The truth is, they're doing what they were bred to do. Is a pointer smarter than a lab? Is a collie smarter than a pit bull? In human terms the best bred fighting dogs would be the dumbest. The first time I took my female to the woods, she treed a coon 7 months and 19 days old. She's been doing it consistently ever since. No great trainer taught her this. She got the right stuff from her sire and dam. Not every pup in her litter is like that. I've been coon hunting for almost 60 years and have had some pretty nice dogs. I have never seen a dog with that kind of locating ability. Lots of times I can't send her in the direction I want her to go. I've seen her put her nose in the air in the opposite direction I sent her and go 100 yards and fall treed with a coon. I don't think anybody can explain it. It's just how some dogs noses work.

Last edited by shadinc on 08-01-2018 at 04:23 PM

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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Shadinc you got it. Every pup I start, I wonder if it will have that magical ability to be that special one. Some just know how to find those coon.

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