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River Birch Run
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 1176

Making a "Stud" dog out of a pup!

I have seen a trend these days that has been both disturbing and ignorant. Seems these kennel promoters are breeding pups (males 7months old or so) at the earliest possible age just to see what the dog will throw. You know just in case the dog does actually turn out. Generally making two to four crosses before the dog reaches the age of two. A few months ago the debate was brought up as to why the Black and Tan breed just can’t get the job done. Well here you go, this is a piece of the puzzle. But hey at least they can get on that reproducers list because 3 dogs out of 105 pups made nitech.

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12-10-2014 01:51 PM

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Darrell Eads
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Pleasant Plain OHIO
Posts: 1291

Disturbing Ignorance ? or maybe Determined and creative , I was always told the younger you breed the better the pups , But hey each to their own , One of these days when I have a Nt Champion I might stud a dog

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12-10-2014 08:02 PM

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STROKIN
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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Bearden AR
Posts: 1735

It doesn't matter what the age. The dog will always pass his or her DNA at any and all ages.

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12-10-2014 08:37 PM

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Tha_Mike_B
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Registered: Jul 2013
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Posts: 65

Observations from the next generation of Black and Tan fanciers!!

If the Black and Tan breed wants to advance the association should figure out away to address issues like the one being discussed here in a conference form @ B&T Days. We need genitcist to present the facts in order to dispell all the old wives tales that we often fall victom too.. We also need to define our terminology better at least for our breed. For example what is a Stud? That will raise a big debate!! Nice male out of a good cross or something gentically fixed enough to likely pass traits. The other interesting post on the forum "what makes a line, a line?". Everybody has there own definition for this, they may all be simular but shouldn't we be more procise as an association. Seems like to me more progress could be made if these things were better defined.

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12-11-2014 02:11 AM

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River Birch Run
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 1176

quote:
Originally posted by Darrell Eads
Disturbing Ignorance ? or maybe Determined and creative , I was always told the younger you breed the better the pups , But hey each to their own , One of these days when I have a Nt Champion I might stud a dog

The dog is going to throw whaterver it's going to throw no matter what the age. The point is breeders are putting alot of pups on the ground before they know rather a hound is worthy of breeding of not. Then there buddy gets a pup and just cause he owns a male dog now thinks he should breed it and buys a female to do so. This process goes on and on and on. The whole to each is there own saying is killing the B&T breed.

Mike B As far as DNA research they still don't know that much about dogs. The DNA we get done on our dogs tell us very little mainly that the sire and Dam are who we said they were and that they are a coonhound. From the research I have done we don't know too much more than that, but it is work in progress. As far as the Assoc. setting guidlines for what words such as "Stud" means. Well just look at our Breed standards, it says one thing and even most of the show dogs do not fit the bill.

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12-11-2014 01:08 PM

Darrell Eads
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Pleasant Plain OHIO
Posts: 1291

quote:
Originally posted by Tha_Mike_B
Observations from the next generation of Black and Tan fanciers!!

If the Black and Tan breed wants to advance the association should figure out away to address issues like the one being discussed here in a conference form @ B&T Days. We need genitcist to present the facts in order to dispell all the old wives tales that we often fall victom too.. We also need to define our terminology better at least for our breed. For example what is a Stud? That will raise a big debate!! Nice male out of a good cross or something gentically fixed enough to likely pass traits. The other interesting post on the forum "what makes a line, a line?". Everybody has there own definition for this, they may all be simular but shouldn't we be more procise as an association. Seems like to me more progress could be made if these things were better defined.

I'M sorry And your name is Tha- Mike- B ? that's a interesting screen name

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12-11-2014 05:01 PM

Tha_Mike_B
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Registered: Jul 2013
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Posts: 65

Thanks Rebecca,

I agree with you totally that it's a work in progress. Heaven knows I don't know much yet but I'm gonna work on that in the coming years.

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12-11-2014 05:30 PM

Tha_Mike_B
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2013
Location:
Posts: 65

Darrell Eads,

My name is Michael Barnes, please to meet ya!!!
The majority of my friends have shorten it to Mike B
hence the tag line.. I have a couple B&T's round the house in Arkansas. Do you have any useful info on my
comment now that I've properly introduced myself??

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12-11-2014 05:37 PM

Tha_Mike_B
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2013
Location:
Posts: 65

Darrell Eads,

I had to check to make sure but I see that you are on the board of directors.. I'm sure you could tell me if my ideas are to far fetched. The things I mentioned could have already come up and been deemed unfeasible.

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12-11-2014 05:51 PM

berger
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2844

quote:
Originally posted by Tha_Mike_B
Observations from the next generation of Black and Tan fanciers!!

If the Black and Tan breed wants to advance the association should figure out away to address issues like the one being discussed here in a conference form @ B&T Days. We need genitcist to present the facts in order to dispell all the old wives tales that we often fall victom too.. We also need to define our terminology better at least for our breed. For example what is a Stud? That will raise a big debate!! Nice male out of a good cross or something gentically fixed enough to likely pass traits. The other interesting post on the forum "what makes a line, a line?". Everybody has there own definition for this, they may all be simular but shouldn't we be more procise as an association. Seems like to me more progress could be made if these things were better defined.

Mike B In my Opinion the Assoc. should not be involved in issues of this sort at all. If someone wants to stud a dog they should have the opportunity to do just that. If someone wants to breed a dog and raise pups they should have that opportunity as well. Some like loners some like pack dogs others like stylish treedogs and some just like coon treeing dogs style don't matter as long as they stay. Some want titles others could care less about a title. Defining something will not make them better. As what some people like others don't.
And example 2 pleasure and hide hunters. I had a call from one and he was telling me the other came down and hunted with him as he wanted to see his dog go. So they went for a drop his dog struck made a loop and a 1/2 in the corn field opening took it out of the field into the creek shut up and fell treed about a 100 yards up the creek. The hunter coming to see this dog go, said after the hunt that is as nice of a country coondog as I have seen in a long time. The guy that owned the dog told the other hunter he wouldn't like him if he owned him. WHY The dog hunts hard and will run by coon that are sitting up close and might go a 1/4 to a mile to tree a coon. This owner cuts dogs and sits by the truck till the dogs is treed. The other hunter likes a dog to hunt 100 to 200 yards around him while he walk hunts and wants them to tree every coon in the woods. Both different styles though if they both get what there looking for are happy hunters. If the breed gets to procise on there terminology of what is what it would make it smaller and the smaller something is the less chance of it being big.

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12-11-2014 06:46 PM

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Darrell Eads
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Pleasant Plain OHIO
Posts: 1291

quote:
Originally posted by Tha_Mike_B
Darrell Eads,

My name is Michael Barnes, please to meet ya!!!
The majority of my friends have shorten it to Mike B
hence the tag line.. I have a couple B&T's round the house in Arkansas. Do you have any useful info on my
comment now that I've properly introduced myself??

hello Mike ,, no im full of useless opinions , but as far as some guy or gal wanting to breed the first heat cycle or a male 7 months old , personally it don't matter to me, good luck to who ever wants to , breeding should be based on ability and Traits , not a name or wanting to be on a list ,

and the association cant have no say or dictate what and how people breed

and it was nice to meet you also

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12-11-2014 10:47 PM

River Birch Run
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Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 1176

Abililty and traits is my point. A coonhound has not reached there prime till there 4 to 6 yrs old. If a dog has been bred before that age you still don't know if the dog is worthy to be breed. An exsample,, look at all the dogs that were tearing it up winning everything at the age of one and two. Then as they get older they can't win anymore. Happens all the time. Because what you have at a young age dosen't mean thats what your going to have in the future.

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12-12-2014 12:55 PM

Billy George
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: The Hawkeye State
Posts: 1317

So if a dog grands at two, you are saying wait till its 4-6 before you stud him?

Or is the fact that every one in the breed thinks they have the next Duelin'Dan, and breed every brood gyp they can find, and ends up with a bunch of pups no one wants?

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Joel Corinth
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Registered: Sep 2014
Location: N.W. corner Wash. St.
Posts: 103

quote:
Originally posted by River Birch Run
Abililty and traits is my point. A coonhound has not reached there prime till there 4 to 6 yrs old. If a dog has been bred before that age you still don't know if the dog is worthy to be breed. An exsample,, look at all the dogs that were tearing it up winning everything at the age of one and two. Then as they get older they can't win anymore. Happens all the time. Because what you have at a young age dosen't mean thats what your going to have in the future.

Ability and traits. A good houndman will be able to see and recognize Good natural ability in a young hound before there a year old. If they know the hounds in the young dogs pedigree they should be able to see traits from it's ancestors. Raw Natural ability is so much more important then the end result for reproducing. At 4 to 6 yrs. old you can take a dog with very unfavorable traits and ability and make it into a decent solid dog. When young doesn't go hunting, no desire, doesn't take pressure, lot's of slicks but with enough hard hunting and training. Correcting all it's natural problems and minimizing them ends up being a solid dog at an older age. You will still get the same ability from it's offspring no matter how decent the dog is at 4 to 6 yrs old. It is not so much how young they breed the dog but how much does the houndsman know about the ability a hound needs to succeed.

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12-12-2014 05:21 PM

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blackdawg
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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Whitesburg, Kentucky
Posts: 2519

quote:
Originally posted by Joel Corinth
Ability and traits. A good houndman will be able to see and recognize Good natural ability in a young hound before there a year old. If they know the hounds in the young dogs pedigree they should be able to see traits from it's ancestors. Raw Natural ability is so much more important then the end result for reproducing. At 4 to 6 yrs. old you can take a dog with very unfavorable traits and ability and make it into a decent solid dog. When young doesn't go hunting, no desire, doesn't take pressure, lot's of slicks but with enough hard hunting and training. Correcting all it's natural problems and minimizing them ends up being a solid dog at an older age. You will still get the same ability from it's offspring no matter how decent the dog is at 4 to 6 yrs old. It is not so much how young they breed the dog but how much does the houndsman know about the ability a hound needs to succeed.

Bingo!

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Christophernidy
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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Alliance Ohio
Posts: 446

In this game if you think you have a good one you beat collect or breed at a young age. I've beat myself for not breeding dogs sooner and then next time out coon takes them across road and end of game. Besides the sooner you realize if they produce likeness the better. Dogs get old quick. Never know when they might dry up or be gone.

I do agree that some people don't take a lot of effort or thought into there crosses but I don't have to hunt there dogs.

Good luck

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12-13-2014 05:39 AM

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River Birch Run
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 1176

quote:
Originally posted by Billy George
So if a dog grands at two, you are saying wait till its 4-6 before you stud him?

Or is the fact that every one in the breed thinks they have the next Duelin'Dan, and breed every brood gyp they can find, and ends up with a bunch of pups no one wants?

Thats right , People win big with those 2 yr olds that babble off the lead and cover faster than you can blink an eye. They push and breed as many as they can to them. Then the dog gets older, don't babble anymore and trys to run its own track but can't and covers to late and guess what they don't win anymore.

And come on Dude the Duelin' Dan subject is beating a dead horse. Too many people know the real story on that.

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12-14-2014 02:05 PM

Billy George
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Humm. I owned Dan sire, and know the story, the real one.
Let here the one from ohio??

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12-14-2014 05:45 PM

Darrell Eads
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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Pleasant Plain OHIO
Posts: 1291

quote:
Originally posted by Billy George
Humm. I owned Dan sire, and know the story, the real one.
Let here the one from ohio??

Im from Ohio but I don't know any stories but would like to hear one also

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12-14-2014 06:19 PM

Christophernidy
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Glad I wasn't the only one who didn't know what the dueling dan story is.

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12-14-2014 09:32 PM

Doug A
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Location: Kilkenny, MN
Posts: 893

Is the story something other than born natural, top notch ability, reproduces just as good as the best? Do tell.

If and if you are a capable houndsman and know that you have a quality dog then breed it when you think it's fit. Two years or ten, that's your business.

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blackdawg
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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Whitesburg, Kentucky
Posts: 2519

quote:
Originally posted by Doug A
Is the story something other than born natural, top notch ability, reproduces just as good as the best? Do tell.

If and if you are a capable houndsman and know that you have a quality dog then breed it when you think it's fit. Two years or ten, that's your business.

That's the only Dan story I've heard, Doug.

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12-15-2014 12:16 PM

Clays_coondogs
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Tell me, tell me the Dan story!

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blackdawg
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The story is, he was one of the best reproducers our breed has ever seen. Period.

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12-15-2014 05:25 PM

Tha_Mike_B
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Berger and Darrell Eads,

I think ya'll are right when I took the time to think about the opinions ya'll offered. If individuals want to to go to the lengths I mentioned they should do so in their own programs. Each fancier will bring to the table what he believes to be the right stuff and accomplish it with a method they believe in. Agreed gentlemen agreed!!! Continuity in one program is easier anyway. Thanks Fellas great dialog..

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12-15-2014 05:28 PM

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