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We went through a time when most of our hunting dogs were grade dogs, some were crossbreds, others looked full blooded, but did not have registration papers. The night hunts were mostly for registered dogs and everyone started registering dogs for the hunts and or to sell pups, as everyone suddenly wanted a registered dog. Grade dogs have become a thing of the past, while registered dogs became abundant. It was a money thing with the registered dogs and with the cross bred dogs. A registry main purpose is to provide a record keeping service, a database on a dogs ancestry, they can do that whether purebred or cross bred. A man should be more concerned with their dogs ability as a coondog and less about it's so called purity. I would take one if Donald's example if it was a true coondog over any number of purebred mutts. I am to old to benefit with any breeding program purebred or cross bred, but there are a lot of younger guys that may benefit with a xbreed cross.
Why should they not have that opportunity to make a xcross, it's their choice. I believe that as the better xcrosses are made, there will be more of the purebreds jumping on board, everyone loves a winner. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Last edited by Dave Richards on 09-14-2019 at 05:39 AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Where is Rueben at he should be all over this topic !!



Tar

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Where is Rueben at he should be all over this topic !!



Tar

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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0nce upon a time there was an excellent strain of mt cur headed by a man named Joe Manning ...Texas Smoke was the dogs name...he was a world champion squirrel and coon dog and I liked everything about that dog...his offspring was hunted on bear as well...I was lucky enough to acquire his daughter who also was his granddaughter...and it was rumored that he had walker blood in him...the first two litters I got one pup was slightly red ticked pup and the other a walker colored pup ...but this line of dogs was some of the best I owned...

Another line of mt cur I used the original dam looked to be buckskin Plott...

Another famous mt cur line is referred as Busher bred mt curs...at one time they were really good and it was admitted that the original sire to this line was a PLOTT hound...

Right now it is hard to find a good mt cur on account most don’t have a good nose and their ears are so short some ears stand straight up and some of thes dogs will way 25 or 27 pounds...pretty sickening to me...

Finding the right ones is a big chore...when finding the right ones I would not hesitate to breed big country or Sambo to give a quick improvement..

Once we get a line of dogs set right we shouldn’t need crossing in any other breed of dogs...otherwise we will be spinning our wheels...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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The first time I heard about treeing curs as registered dogs I was pretty upset about it and I thought it was going to fly like a lead balloon...well I was wrong...the treeing curs are still around and I do not place much value in them...maybe I shouldn’t say because I do not know the system...my assumption is that after a while we really can’t look at a pedigree and figure out what’s what in a pedigree unless it is a personal bloodline...

But I can see where breeding an outstanding dog one time such as Big Country to a different breed like a good Walker line and carefully selecting pups from that cross that display the right traits and breeding those pups back to walkers then that to me is very acceptable...it shouldn’t be easy to approve but it should be done when needed...sometimes it makes since...I would buy a great dog from this type of breeding in a heartbeat if needed...

Hopefully this will keep this type of breeding in the forefront and not in the dark behind the wood pile...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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The first time I heard about treeing curs as registered dogs I was pretty upset about it and I thought it was going to fly like a lead balloon...well I was wrong...the treeing curs are still around and I do not place much value in them...maybe I shouldn’t say because I do not know the system...my assumption is that after a while we really can’t look at a pedigree and figure out what’s what in a pedigree unless it is a personal bloodline...

But I can see where breeding an outstanding dog one time such as Big Country to a different breed like a good Walker line and carefully selecting pups from that cross that display the right traits and breeding those pups back to walkers then that to me is very acceptable...it shouldn’t be easy to approve but it should be done when needed...sometimes it makes since...I would buy a great dog from this type of breeding in a heartbeat if needed...

Hopefully this will keep this type of breeding in the forefront and not in the dark behind the wood pile...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Reuben
0nce upon a time there was an excellent strain of mt cur headed by a man named Joe Manning ...Texas Smoke was the dogs name...he was a world champion squirrel and coon dog and I liked everything about that dog...his offspring was hunted on bear as well...I was lucky enough to acquire his daughter who also was his granddaughter...and it was rumored that he had walker blood in him...the first two litters I got one pup was slightly red ticked pup and the other a walker colored pup ...but this line of dogs was some of the best I owned...

Another line of mt cur I used the original dam looked to be buckskin Plott...

Another famous mt cur line is referred as Busher bred mt curs...at one time they were really good and it was admitted that the original sire to this line was a PLOTT hound...

Right now it is hard to find a good mt cur on account most don’t have a good nose and their ears are so short some ears stand straight up and some of thes dogs will way 25 or 27 pounds...pretty sickening to me...

Finding the right ones is a big chore...when finding the right ones I would not hesitate to breed big country or Sambo to give a quick improvement..

Once we get a line of dogs set right we shouldn’t need crossing in any other breed of dogs...otherwise we will be spinning our wheels...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Dave, if your friend's mule won, this crossbred thing might work. I think I'll breed one of my blue females to Richard's bob tail producing stud. Wouldn't it be great to win the world hunt with a bob tailed blue bone?

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Donald Bergeron

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quote:

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Originally posted by shadinc
Dave, if your friend's mule won, this crossbred thing might work. I think I'll breed one of my blue females to Richard's bob tail producing stud. Wouldn't it be great to win the world hunt with a bob tailed blue bone?

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Tar...why it it that the breeds need to go to cross breeds to improve the bloodlines? It is frustrating to me...in 2007 I let go of my dogs...big mistake...in 2009 I decided to get back in once all was ok...ten Year’s later I have culled at least 9 mt curs and 5 plotts...just now having dogs that are ok but not great...seems it is best to breed your own once you get them where you think they need to be...people talk all this baloney about these great dogs that breed true and now we are talking abut crossing breeds...I didn’t say anything about issues when I talked about breeding dogs...but I will condense it more to point out the meat and potatoes...

I mentioned different breeds of the same colors...keywords...”different breeds same colors...so when you breed different breeds you won’t know what your going to get...something as simple as colors...

Breeding line bred and inbred dogs for long tail and what did I get...some bob tails...

WHAT I WAS POINTING OUT INDIRECTLY IS THAT IT IS HARD ENOUGH BREEDING PUREBRED DOGS ...so how much harder will it be to breed mixed breed dogs???

I would pay a lot of money for a well bred dog that is linebred and inbred from a long line of top hunting dogs (not competition dogs) and if that line was stacked with great hunting dogs of the same types I like then that dog would be very valuable to me...if it was a great dog but very very scatter bred that dog would not be valuable to me...my yard is too small for a great hunting dog that can not reproduce itself...besides just being a great hunting dog to me is lower priority, way lower than a dog that is bred right besides just hunting right...if I pay the money I want the dog to hunt as I want and have the potential to reproduce itself...that is how I look at all my dogs in my back yard...I tend to look at all angles I can possibly see and have done so for many years...and no I am not where I need to be with my dogs...0nce upon a time I had what I wanted and will again one day...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Reuben over all these years I have had my hands on a lot of dogs. What I have noticed is when you stick to mixing vanilla ice cream with vanilla ice cream it’s good but and some sprinkles or chocolate chip once in a while it makes it better. I don’t breed to the next big thing. I got my line I like but without outside influences once in awhile it will get stagnet. I watch dogs that are not close to my line but have the traits and reproduce the traits that I like. Most times those dogs are older by time you see it come to fruit. My decisions are never based on a dog just having one good night.


I kinda just know it when I see it.


Tar

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Reuben
Tar...why it it that the breeds need to go to cross breeds to improve the bloodlines? It is frustrating to me...in 2007 I let go of my dogs...big mistake...in 2009 I decided to get back in once all was ok...ten Year’s later I have culled at least 9 mt curs and 5 plotts...just now having dogs that are ok but not great...seems it is best to breed your own once you get them where you think they need to be...people talk all this baloney about these great dogs that breed true and now we are talking abut crossing breeds...I didn’t say anything about issues when I talked about breeding dogs...but I will condense it more to point out the meat and potatoes...

I mentioned different breeds of the same colors...keywords...”different breeds same colors...so when you breed different breeds you won’t know what your going to get...something as simple as colors...

Breeding line bred and inbred dogs for long tail and what did I get...some bob tails...

WHAT I WAS POINTING OUT INDIRECTLY IS THAT IT IS HARD ENOUGH BREEDING PUREBRED DOGS ...so how much harder will it be to breed mixed breed dogs???

I would pay a lot of money for a well bred dog that is linebred and inbred from a long line of top hunting dogs (not competition dogs) and if that line was stacked with great hunting dogs of the same types I like then that dog would be very valuable to me...if it was a great dog but very very scatter bred that dog would not be valuable to me...my yard is too small for a great hunting dog that can not reproduce itself...besides just being a great hunting dog to me is lower priority, way lower than a dog that is bred right besides just hunting right...if I pay the money I want the dog to hunt as I want and have the potential to reproduce itself...that is how I look at all my dogs in my back yard...I tend to look at all angles I can possibly see and have done so for many years...and no I am not where I need to be with my dogs...0nce upon a time I had what I wanted and will again one day...

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I talked to Joe Newlin one night for quite a while. We discussed line breeding at length and he made a statement that really hit home with me and I had personally seen with me and my Dad line breeding for several years. He said that line breeding will eventually breed back to the norm. I had seen the same thing and I remembered that our best dogs were usually from an outcross even though the dog we had bred to wasn't any better than what we had at the time, the offspring were usually improved. This made me think how really foolish it was for me to think that I was going to create the next best thing, or line, out of just the limited supply of dogs that I had in my back yard. I personally don't think that breeding to a different breed of coon hounds is any different than breeding to a completely different unrelated line of hounds within the same coon hound breed.

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Is it possible that breeders have been wrong all this time? Maybe close breeding is not the best way to go.

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Has anybody ever heard the expression “there’s more than one way to skin a cat”? Never understood, and still don’t, why men think if it isn’t their way it isn’t right. There’s been good line bred hounds and good crossbred hounds, no way to know which was the best method. My personal view is breed them how you wish as long as you keep an open mind and see dogs for what they really are. You aren’t ever gonna convince me that coondog to coondog wasn’t a tried and true method. Just like I’ve seen line bred dogs that fixed very predictable traits to where a high percentage of offspring retained those traits. If a man could live long enough and fix predictable traits in multiple lines and cross breed between those lines I would think special dogs could be reproduced with more consistency. However, it will not and cannot be done so I wouldn’t ever argue that my “theory” is the end all best method. How could any hunter frown upon a man breeding two real coon dogs regardless of breed. Often times those same men approve of breeding lesser individuals within a breed because it looks good on paper. You show me 4 or better yet 5 generations of sure enough exceptional dogs and I’ll buy a pup right now. The problem is, very few put that kind of effort into breeding dogs. You aren’t breeding the caliber of dog I’m talking about if the Sires and Dams have all come from you and your buddies yards. Nobody has owned or had access to that amount of exceptional dogs without making some road trips.

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Sure we started out hunting xbred mutts and it's said history repetes itself so go for it. Look at all the big hunts these mutts have won. Count'em up it don't take over one hand.
Any man that has bred his own strain for any period of time knows what outside strain crosses good with his and when an outcross is needed he can go to that strain and if it nicks then he can breed back into his strain and refresh it. The big successful breeders followed their strains, won, and got famous for it.
Let's see, who got famous for breeding mutts........

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by yadkinriver
[B]Sure we started out hunting xbred mutts and it's said history repetes itself so go for it. Look at all the big hunts these mutts have won. Count'em up it don't take over one hand.
Any man that has bred his own strain for any period of time knows what outside strain crosses good with his and when an outcross is needed he can go to that strain and if it nicks then he can breed back into his strain and refresh it. The big successful breeders followed their strains, won, and got famous for it.
Let's see, who got famous for breeding mutts........ !



Long hair , flag tails , dew claws ,yellow eyes , white on dogs that ain’t supposed to have it. Ticks on dogs that ain’t supposed to have it. Full blood hounds pointing birds and fetching coons. It may not show it on the papers but it’s in there. I know a guy had a weenie dog x beagle cross he run rabbits with hmmmmm wonder who that was.



Tar

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Yadkinriver, don’t you think that’s kinda a lopsided comparison? The only dogs allowed to win big hunts were papered dogs over most of competition history. That’s like saying I made more money than my son this year I must be a better worker. He’s already 9 years old and I’ve got 30 more years experience than him but if he’s really so great he should jump right to being the best!

Maybe look at the most famous hunters in our countries history that made a living off of their dogs catching game for hides, depredation work, or museum specimens. They weren’t using purebred dogs. I’m a fan of both methods so I don’t have a care either way, just curious what either side has against the other. Thank goodness Lester Nance bred that treeing foxhound to a bitch of unknown ancestry so you would have the Purebred stock you have today.

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You're right Ghost it had to start somewhere just like everything else.
Tar I know Xactly who you're talking about and she was a good one but I didn't build a pack of them. Called the exception instead of the rule.
All dogs, horses, cows and chickens had to be bred to a breed.

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I thought you were a fan of the Tar Rattler strain but since you've sided with Dave now you're advocating the xbreeds. Guess I'll have to talk to Richard and see if he"ll rename you Muttbaby. Sometimes I start to think you're full of .... mud, yea I'll go with mud. Luv ya bro. If I wanted to argue I'd go to Florida and get my wife.

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One thing about it . Pure bred , mix breed , long tail, bob tail. They will all eat a turd. So hunt whatever floats your boat. At the end of the day they will still be a turd eating dog.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkinriver
I thought you were a fan of the Tar Rattler strain but since you've sided with Dave now you're advocating the xbreeds. Guess I'll have to talk to Richard and see if he"ll rename you Muttbaby. Sometimes I start to think you're full of .... mud, yea I'll go with mud. Luv ya bro. If I wanted to argue I'd go to Florida and get my wife.

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I loved your posts, they were factual. Yadkinriver, I am not advocating that we ALL should be looking to cross breed our dogs. I am just in favor of a man being able to make a Cross to another breed when they feel like it will improve their dogs. Your reference to how many big hunts the xbreed dogs have won was very misleading. You know very well that the program allowing xbreed dogs to hunt as registered dogs has not been in place long enough to make a fair comparison. A xbreed won the UKC World fair and square, beat all competition, only to be stripped of the title due to his handlers mistake. Make no mistake Sambo was the best dog that year and proved it. You breed what you like, anyway you want, that's your right, just don't think your way is the only way. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Dave Dave Dave you've not been paying attention. Reread my post on 9/13 at 3:42.

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BTW A person that doesn't breed dogs and telling people how they need to breed is like a man thats never been in the water giving swimming lessons.

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