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Donnie Stevens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
Posts: 2361

A dog can get sprayed by a skunk just running past it and can get quills the same way but if they've got quills inside their mouth they grabbed it no ifs ands or buts. You say you have to see the off game well if the dog still has half the porky stuck to the roof of its mouth I'd say ya seen it...lol

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Old Post 09-05-2019 11:55 PM
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high ridge
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3018

I say one thing.
I DIDNT KNOW THERE WAS SO MANY HONORABLE HOUNDSMEN OUT HERE IN THESE HUNTS ON DOGS MESSING WITH OFF GAME LOL.

I have hunted around the world and I have NEVER seen the first person say, hey my dog is running a deee minus me or on a NtCh cast say hey my dog bayed a skunk over that ridge scratch me.

I truly get tickled at all the gloom and doom ones can set and come up with when something changes.

BUT, ONE THING REMAINS THE SAME AND ALWAYS WILL
STRIKE AND TREE MORE COONS THAT ARE VISIBLE THAN THE OTHER DOGS AND HAVE THEM BROKE FROM DUMB MISTAKES AND YOU WILL STILL HAVE A WINNER IN ANY REGISTRY UNDER ANY SET OF RULES

What I do see getting ready to happen is some of those so called slick treeing rough $kc dogs starting to show up and mess the playhouse up by showing they can win these supposed coon treeing contest that we are told by so many that we cannot do

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Old Post 09-06-2019 03:34 AM
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harleydan1956
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Canton, Ohio
Posts: 1700

Proposal 1. So if you are hunting a colder nosed dog that can run a track the others can't...
Proposal 5. So, you no longer have the option if a dog is treed to turn loose?
Proposal 6. Guess a good dog only has to hold a tree 3 minutes now?

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Last edited by harleydan1956 on 09-06-2019 at 03:56 AM

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Old Post 09-06-2019 03:50 AM
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harleydan1956
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Canton, Ohio
Posts: 1700

Re: 2020 Rules

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
For those claiming these are the best rules EVER to hunt under, let just take a quick look at what is being called THE BEST.

Proposal 1- Babbling- With this rule as it is now written, I can agree with any judge or handler who doesn't like the fact that somebody else got first strike, and as soon as they question if the dog is babbling, I can agree, knock that dog out of strike points all together, and then gain tremendously on that particular dog so long as I get strike and tree points in the top two positions on that same track.

With the rule written as it is, it makes it VERY easy to knock someone out of strike points, thus allowing me to gain an unfair advantage of that very same dog that opened ahead of mine. And you will say why that will never happen as we are HONORABLE Sportsmen. Well we all have already seen just how honorable most folks are today with this WIN AT ALL COST attitude.

We are all so HONORABLE today that with these new rules we no longer have a need to require a hound to maintain a HOUND trait. You see, Silent trailing is a FAULT, in the eye of the TRUE Houndsman. And I am a TRUE HOUNDSMAN. This was a fault when the rules were originally written and has remained a fault until to passing of these past rules proposals. So from where I am sitting YOU Breed Reps that just voted to eliminate one of the most important characteristics of our HOUNDS have just done a GREAT dis-service to the true HOUND Breeders of this nation.

What now separates your style HOUND from the cur dog down the road. NOTHING. and I will say it again NOTHING!!

So Now, breed Reps, why won't you allow the cur dogs to hunt against you in competition? You have NO GOOD ARGUMENT as to why they shouldn't be allowed. But I will tell you this, IF I had wanted to breed for a cur dog I would have done it many, many, years ago.

Some say they are now coming back to hunt UKC, now that the rules are written so much more fair. I call Bull Crap on that one. You just sit back and watch how the silent trailing handlers gang up on the first and 2nd strike dogs, so as to not allow them to receive strike points, so they can strike and tree all in one breath for 225.

I say this is a SAD SAD day!!!!!


And while I am on a role let me just clarify one more thing. UKC did NOT implement these new rule changes, they simply gave the platform for which rules could be changed. YOU the Breed Reps are "in my opinion" fully responsible for making these changes, and it is YOU that will be responsible "in my eyes" for changing the traits of what we will call hounds from this day forward. If your gonna allow a HOUND to operate with cur traits, you should at least require that the term Silent trailer be stamped on the UKC papers so that the true roundsman doesn't get fooled into thinking that hound had superior HOUND traits that were better than most that allowed that dog to be successful in competition.

An if I may quote the famous Emmett Brohard, ENOUGH SAID!!!!!



X2

__________________
Lethal Blue kennels.
Where the females count and you will never see a "brood" female!
Dan and Kris Rosier
Canton, ohio
330-904-3392


Home of:
Gr Ch Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Betty Jane...... PR. Crites Soggy Bottom Blue Banjo X PR. Mosquito Creek Tree mamma Sis
Gr Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Rattlin Samantha ... Dual Gr Ch PR Mid Ohio Rattlin Sam X Gr Ch PR. Lethal Blue Jet's Xena
Gr Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Moonlight Serenade... Gr. Ch. Nite Ch PR Hillbillys Smokey River Dutch HTX X Gr. Ch. Nite CH. PR Lethal Blue Izabell Sitara
PR. Lethal Blue Lil Bit of Respect.... Ch. Nite Ch PR Shivers' Magic Lead X GR. Ch. Nite Ch PR Lethal Blue Betty Jane


Gone but never forgotten
Gr. Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Izabell Sitara... Dual Gr. Ch PR Bowens Blue Deuce X Ch. Nite Ch. PR Becky.

Gr. Ch. Nite Ch Hillbilly's Smokey River Blue Dutch HTX..... Gr. Ch. Gr. Nite Ch Pr. Smokey River Tramp's Blue Lake and Pr. Misty River Blue Doll III.

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Old Post 09-06-2019 04:03 AM
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Mike McCool
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2011
Location: mcloud oklahoma
Posts: 150

I hope all these people are right because all this griping about babbling dogs accounted for half of the turnout at your club so this means the new rules are going to bring guys to replace the ones there going to lose. all babblers will be going to pkc oh i forgot thats where it started again lets see turnout numbers when this takes affect.

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Old Post 09-06-2019 04:40 PM
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Toad Hill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: missouri
Posts: 888

To be honest!!! I dont have a problem with a guy striking his silent mouth track dog as long as he dont have a problem with me treeing my silent mouth treedog

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Old Post 09-06-2019 05:12 PM
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Rolin Blues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2761

Proposal 7

Allen needs to change wording or clarify it, before it takes effect. There is no way a dog should be assigned tree pts. after pulling off its tree & going in to a TREE THAT IS CLOSED.Only assign tree pts. for off game or slick tree as in past. Otherwise, no one will turn loose after scoring their tree.

Example: All dogs are struck, Dog A is treed & dogs B/C goes on & split trees with dog D continuing to trail. After scoring A tree, it is cut loose, re-strikes for 25 with a line & trees with B/C, he SHOULD NOT be assigned tree pts., if coon is seen, because that tree is already closed, but could be assigned 371/2 WITH A LINE, just like strike pts. While this is going on, dog D has arrived at tree before judge arrives, but after tree is closed. When judge arrives, he assigns D 371/2 tree pts, depending how tree is scored.

Coon is seen- B/C plus both ways. Dog A deleted both ways, Dog D minused both ways.

Circle tree- B/C circle both ways. Dog A deleted both ways. Dog D circled strike, delete assigned tree pts.

Slick tree or off game- B/C minused both ways. Dog A deleted strike pts. minused tree pts. Dog D minused both ways.

Assigning tree pts. is for dog that covers after tree is closed, but used to ONLY get minus strike pts., when coon was seen.
2nd scenario- Dog A is scored, but kept on leash. B/C tree is closed, then dog D covers it. Judge arrives & assigns D 50 pts.-

Coon is seen- B/C plus both ways. Dog D is minused both ways, for treeing late & coming in off his own track & not finishing it.

Circle tree- B/C circled both ways. Dog D circled strike, deleted tree, then those could not be used in case of tie breaker.

Slick tree or off game- B/C/D are all minused both ways.

Then all 4 dogs could be cast together or time out taken to move. Take care, Ron.

Last edited by Rolin Blues on 09-08-2019 at 12:48 PM

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Old Post 09-07-2019 09:59 PM
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F bond
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2017
Location: Wv
Posts: 32

Re: Proposal 7

quote:
Originally posted by Rolin Blues
Allen needs to change wording or clarify it, before it takes effect. There is no way a dog should be assigned tree pts. after pulling off its tree & going in to a TREE THAT IS CLOSED.Only assign tree pts. for off game or slick tree as in past. Otherwise, no one will turn loose after scoring their tree.

Example: All dogs are struck, Dog A is treed & dogs B/C goes on & split trees with dog D continuing to trail. After scoring A tree, it is cut loose, re-strikes for 25 with a line & trees with B/C, he SHOULD NOT be assigned tree pts., if coon is seen, because that tree is already closed, but could be assigned 50 WITH A LINE, just like strike pts. While this is going on, dog D has arrived at tree before judge arrives, but after tree is closed. When judge arrives, he assigns D 25 tree pts, depending how tree is scored.

Coon is seen- B/C plus both ways. Dog A deleted both ways, Dog D minused both ways.

Circle tree- B/C circle both ways. Dog A deleted both ways. Dog D circled strike, delete assigned tree pts.

Slick tree or off game- B/C minused both ways. Dog A deleted strike pts. minused tree pts. Dog D minused both ways.

Assigning tree pts. is for dog that covers after tree is closed, but used to ONLY get minus strike pts., when coon was seen.
2nd scenario- Dog A is scored, but kept on leash. B/C tree is closed, then dog D covers it. Judge arrives & assigns D 50 pts.-

Coon is seen- B/C plus both ways. Dog D is minused both ways, for treeing late & coming in off his own track & not finishing it.

Circle tree- B/C circled both ways. Dog D circled strike, deleted tree, then those could not be used in case of tie breaker.

Slick tree or off game- B/C/D are all minused both ways.

Then all 4 dogs could be cast together or time out taken to move. Take care, Ron.



I agree with you Ron with the exception of deleting dog a tree points on a obvious slick or off game. If the dog goes and backs another dog he should receive minus just the same as the dog that did all the work. Imo Iíd want mine to go on and actually tree the coon dog b&c missed or if it was off game Iíd want my dog to keep his mouth shut till he knew it was right and if not get outta there and get under a coon. If it babbled on the way in after recut or barked when arriving at the tree the dog had struck therefore he should have a coon when he/she trees so if itís slick or trash give it the minus points. I donít care for a me to idiot but Iím not gonna break a dog for covering another one if he has nothing going on but he also doesnít deserve any points for showing up when the works done either. If the option to recut is still there a handler can make his or her own choice. I personally will hold mine if Iím winning and another dog is treed close by. Now if Iím losing or another dog is a mile deep treed Iím cutting loose cause if they go that far to cover another dog they wonít be on my lead very long. Each to their own I donít feed anyone elseís dogs or vise versa. I enjoy hunting wether it be pleasure or competition and will continue to do so as long as Iím able to. Now if a dog that I enjoy hunting isnít what can win in the hunts then I just wonít competition hunt. But bottom line is if the dog goes hunting and trees live coons there is a chance of winning the only given to a nite hunt is you canít win if you donít enter.

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Old Post 09-08-2019 05:21 AM
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F bond
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2017
Location: Wv
Posts: 32

Re: Proposal 7

quote:
Originally posted by Rolin Blues
Allen needs to change wording or clarify it, before it takes effect. There is no way a dog should be assigned tree pts. after pulling off its tree & going in to a TREE THAT IS CLOSED.Only assign tree pts. for off game or slick tree as in past. Otherwise, no one will turn loose after scoring their tree.

Example: All dogs are struck, Dog A is treed & dogs B/C goes on & split trees with dog D continuing to trail. After scoring A tree, it is cut loose, re-strikes for 25 with a line & trees with B/C, he SHOULD NOT be assigned tree pts., if coon is seen, because that tree is already closed, but could be assigned 50 WITH A LINE, just like strike pts. While this is going on, dog D has arrived at tree before judge arrives, but after tree is closed. When judge arrives, he assigns D 25 tree pts, depending how tree is scored.

Coon is seen- B/C plus both ways. Dog A deleted both ways, Dog D minused both ways.

Circle tree- B/C circle both ways. Dog A deleted both ways. Dog D circled strike, delete assigned tree pts.

Slick tree or off game- B/C minused both ways. Dog A deleted strike pts. minused tree pts. Dog D minused both ways.

Assigning tree pts. is for dog that covers after tree is closed, but used to ONLY get minus strike pts., when coon was seen.
2nd scenario- Dog A is scored, but kept on leash. B/C tree is closed, then dog D covers it. Judge arrives & assigns D 50 pts.-

Coon is seen- B/C plus both ways. Dog D is minused both ways, for treeing late & coming in off his own track & not finishing it.

Circle tree- B/C circled both ways. Dog D circled strike, deleted tree, then those could not be used in case of tie breaker.

Slick tree or off game- B/C/D are all minused both ways.

Then all 4 dogs could be cast together or time out taken to move. Take care, Ron.



I agree with you Ron with the exception of deleting dog a tree points on a obvious slick or off game. If the dog goes and backs another dog he should receive minus just the same as the dog that did all the work. Imo Iíd want mine to go on and actually tree the coon dog b&c missed or if it was off game Iíd want my dog to keep his mouth shut till he knew it was right and if not get outta there and get under a coon. If it babbled on the way in after recut or barked when arriving at the tree the dog had struck therefore he should have a coon when he/she trees so if itís slick or trash give it the minus points. I donít care for a me to idiot but Iím not gonna break a dog for covering another one if he has nothing going on but he also doesnít deserve any points for showing up when the works done either. If the option to recut is still there a handler can make his or her own choice. I personally will hold mine if Iím winning and another dog is treed close by. Now if Iím losing or another dog is a mile deep treed Iím cutting loose cause if they go that far to cover another dog they wonít be on my lead very long. Each to their own I donít feed anyone elseís dogs or vise versa. I enjoy hunting wether it be pleasure or competition and will continue to do so as long as Iím able to. Now if a dog that I enjoy hunting isnít what can win in the hunts then I just wonít competition hunt. But bottom line is if the dog goes hunting and trees live coons there is a chance of winning the only given to a nite hunt is you canít win if you donít enter.

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Old Post 09-08-2019 05:21 AM
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Rolin Blues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2761

Sorry F bond

But you must have mis-read my post on that point. Dog A would get deleted both ways on coon seen or circle. Dog A would get deleted strike pts. & minused tree pts. on slick or off game. You're right, a dog should get "his butt outta dodge" on a slick or off game & not just cover for the sake of doing it.

I had to read my post again to make sure I hadn't made a mistake. Take care, Ron.

Last edited by Rolin Blues on 09-08-2019 at 12:53 PM

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Old Post 09-08-2019 07:13 AM
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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1188

Re: 2020 Rules

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
For those claiming these are the best rules EVER to hunt under, let just take a quick look at what is being called THE BEST.

Proposal 1- Babbling- With this rule as it is now written, I can agree with any judge or handler who doesn't like the fact that somebody else got first strike, and as soon as they question if the dog is babbling, I can agree, knock that dog out of strike points all together, and then gain tremendously on that particular dog so long as I get strike and tree points in the top two positions on that same track.

With the rule written as it is, it makes it VERY easy to knock someone out of strike points, thus allowing me to gain an unfair advantage of that very same dog that opened ahead of mine. And you will say why that will never happen as we are HONORABLE Sportsmen. Well we all have already seen just how honorable most folks are today with this WIN AT ALL COST attitude.

We are all so HONORABLE today that with these new rules we no longer have a need to require a hound to maintain a HOUND trait. You see, Silent trailing is a FAULT, in the eye of the TRUE Houndsman. And I am a TRUE HOUNDSMAN. This was a fault when the rules were originally written and has remained a fault until to passing of these past rules proposals. So from where I am sitting YOU Breed Reps that just voted to eliminate one of the most important characteristics of our HOUNDS have just done a GREAT dis-service to the true HOUND Breeders of this nation.

What now separates your style HOUND from the cur dog down the road. NOTHING. and I will say it again NOTHING!!

So Now, breed Reps, why won't you allow the cur dogs to hunt against you in competition? You have NO GOOD ARGUMENT as to why they shouldn't be allowed. But I will tell you this, IF I had wanted to breed for a cur dog I would have done it many, many, years ago.

Some say they are now coming back to hunt UKC, now that the rules are written so much more fair. I call Bull Crap on that one. You just sit back and watch how the silent trailing handlers gang up on the first and 2nd strike dogs, so as to not allow them to receive strike points, so they can strike and tree all in one breath for 225.

I say this is a SAD SAD day!!!!!


And while I am on a role let me just clarify one more thing. UKC did NOT implement these new rule changes, they simply gave the platform for which rules could be changed. YOU the Breed Reps are "in my opinion" fully responsible for making these changes, and it is YOU that will be responsible "in my eyes" for changing the traits of what we will call hounds from this day forward. If your gonna allow a HOUND to operate with cur traits, you should at least require that the term Silent trailer be stamped on the UKC papers so that the true roundsman doesn't get fooled into thinking that hound had superior HOUND traits that were better than most that allowed that dog to be successful in competition.

An if I may quote the famous Emmett Brohard, ENOUGH SAID!!!!!



AGREED 100 % !!!!

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

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Old Post 09-09-2019 05:50 AM
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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1188

Re: Proposal 7

quote:
Originally posted by Rolin Blues
Allen needs to change wording or clarify it, before it takes effect. There is no way a dog should be assigned tree pts. after pulling off its tree & going in to a TREE THAT IS CLOSED.Only assign tree pts. for off game or slick tree as in past. Otherwise, no one will turn loose after scoring their tree.

Example: All dogs are struck, Dog A is treed & dogs B/C goes on & split trees with dog D continuing to trail. After scoring A tree, it is cut loose, re-strikes for 25 with a line & trees with B/C, he SHOULD NOT be assigned tree pts., if coon is seen, because that tree is already closed, but could be assigned 371/2 WITH A LINE, just like strike pts. While this is going on, dog D has arrived at tree before judge arrives, but after tree is closed. When judge arrives, he assigns D 371/2 tree pts, depending how tree is scored.

Coon is seen- B/C plus both ways. Dog A deleted both ways, Dog D minused both ways.

Circle tree- B/C circle both ways. Dog A deleted both ways. Dog D circled strike, delete assigned tree pts.

Slick tree or off game- B/C minused both ways. Dog A deleted strike pts. minused tree pts. Dog D minused both ways.

Assigning tree pts. is for dog that covers after tree is closed, but used to ONLY get minus strike pts., when coon was seen.
2nd scenario- Dog A is scored, but kept on leash. B/C tree is closed, then dog D covers it. Judge arrives & assigns D 50 pts.-

Coon is seen- B/C plus both ways. Dog D is minused both ways, for treeing late & coming in off his own track & not finishing it.

Circle tree- B/C circled both ways. Dog D circled strike, deleted tree, then those could not be used in case of tie breaker.

Slick tree or off game- B/C/D are all minused both ways.

Then all 4 dogs could be cast together or time out taken to move. Take care, Ron.



AGREED 100 % !!!

YOU ARE DARNED IF YOU DO AND DARNED IF YOU DON'T!!!
WHAT IN THE WORLD WERE THESE REPS THINKING???
ABSOLUTELY CRAZY.
IF THIS IS NOT MAKING YOU BREED OR TRAIN FOR TOTALLY INDEPENDENT DOGS TO WIN IN HUNTS, I QUIT!!!!
WON"T OWN OR BREED FOR THIS NONSENSE.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

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Old Post 09-09-2019 05:56 AM
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elvis
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4066

I wish Jim Sizemore was here to straighten this mess out.

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Old Post 09-12-2019 01:27 AM
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Donnie Stevens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
Posts: 2361

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
I wish Jim Sizemore was here to straighten this mess out.


Copy that

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Old Post 09-12-2019 02:27 AM
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Autumn Clements
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Prince Edward Island,Canada
Posts: 4542

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
A dog can get sprayed by a skunk just running past it and can get quills the same way but if they've got quills inside their mouth they grabbed it no ifs ands or buts. You say you have to see the off game well if the dog still has half the porky stuck to the roof of its mouth I'd say ya seen it...lol

I always figured some common sense had to be used with that rule, Iíve always felt there was times with both skunks and porkies you could scratch for off game without seeing it.

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Old Post 09-12-2019 02:59 PM
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gyhunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 54

Ukc rules

Headed in right direction. But I'm a proponent of having strike points same for dogs and trees plus or minus. No grey areas.

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gyhunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 54

Ukc rules

Headed in right direction. But I'm a proponent of having strike points same for dogs and trees plus or minus. No grey areas.

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Garry

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Tim Lewis
New UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2019
Location: Miami, Oklahoma
Posts: 6

Really gonna like the new changes!

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coonnutz
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: stmarys md
Posts: 11

What a crock of s;*t

I can believe anyone really can agree to some of these rule changes. If they are the tyoe of rules you want we really need to reconsider the type of dog we are hunting. Who the he'll goes out pleasure hunting just to hear a dog tree I could teach a Boston terrier to tree a **** tree. A dog trailing a coon is the music I live for. If mine don't trail I'd shoot the pos don't care how many coons it trees. And dear Lord now I have to see that deer screaming pos b4 I can minus it. When the he'll did no child left behind hit the dog world. Raise better dogs not change rules to help the pos our grandfather's would have culled out the gene pool. I expected better from us

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harleydan1956
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Canton, Ohio
Posts: 1700

I can see this is going to be a young man's game. Tree old so and so... He's 300 yards away, let's go. We'll stop on the way to listen. Ok, close the tree at 3 minutes, but hold tree for 5.. at least.. what are we doing to the hounds?

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