Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2835

Years ago the rules in UKC were 100 for first strike and 100 for first tree. Coon hunters still hide hunted and pleasure hunted so loose barking was not tolerated as much but they also competition hunted their dogs. I don't remember as much loose barking back then. I believe it was in the early 80's that UKC changed to 125 for first tree with the separation to 75 for second tree. I was hunting a tight mouthed female at the time and she was most always a first tree dog so this rule change really helped her. Then over the years dogs were bred for more "tree" and then count down timers were implemented in the other registry to keep first tree at 100 in that registry. However to combat first tree differentials some people accepted loose mouthed dogs to offset the extra points on the tree by getting undeserved strike points for a dog just barking. 100 first strike with 75 second tree could beat a dog with 25 strike points and 125 tree points. AKC kept the 100 strike and 125 tree, with also a countdown, but implemented a minute rule on strike with all dogs barking at the end of the minute only getting 50 strike points which strongly gave the advantage to the first tree dogs. However AKC never became the major player and although I like their rules, I am sure copying parts of their rules from AKC is not something that is going to happen in UKC. Also, a tree count down doesn't seem like something that is going to happen in UKC as it seems that their is concern that running too many timers is too complicated for some beginning competition hunters that participate more in UKC events than other registries.
I was thinking that changing the strike points to 75 for first strike, 50 for second strike, and 25 for third and fourth strike would be a simple rule change that would bring things back to rewarding the dog that trees the coon more while still holding a dog accountable for barking. First strike at 75 with second tree at 75 would give the dog with last strike, 25, and first tree, 125, the same scores with the tie breaker going to most tree points, which would make the dog that treed the coon the winner.
This idea may have been suggested before but I think it would work out well.

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2244

Well John, after giving this some thought, please allow me to pick your brain so to speak to see if I understand your proposition correctly. It seems to me that you are suggesting to decrease the value of 1st strike, thus I assume you believe it is not as important to find a coon track, as it is to find the tree with the coon in it. Am I correct in my assessment ??

If that is in fact your position, The I would RESPECTFULLY suggest that a dog has to find a coon track, before it can run that track to a tree. A weak strike dog SHOULD be just as big of a fault as a weak (locating) tree dog. By re-assigning the point value as you are suggesting, seems to me, to give an even bigger advantage to the weak strike dog by taking away the value of (hunting for) and finding the coon track first.

Now I understand fully that in todays coon hunting world, around the country in general, coon populations are higher on average now, than they were in the 1950's 60's and 70's.
Thus it doesn't take as big of a hunting dog to find a track as it used to. And heck, in some parts of the country today, it is difficult at times to go 100 yards without crossing a different coon track. So with 85-90 % of legitimate 1st strikes coming in under 5 minutes of hunt time, I see why some folks think striking a coon track is not as important as treeing that coon track.

Only speaking for my self, I would be against the idea of changing the value of the importance of strike, when it would benefit (enhance) the ability of a tight mouthed dog to win a cast in competition, when that very trait, (tight/silent mouthed) that (was/and still is) a sever fault in the eyes of competition coon hunting, to the point that they considered it as big of a fault as fighting at the tree. By that I mean both are a scratchabe offenses.

I do apologize if I have gotten completely off topic for the direction of your proposal. So I will just shut up for now and see how others feel about this recommendation. Take Care my friend!!

__________________
Phone-740-767-2572
Dave Mayles
11210 Davis Road
Glouster, Ohio 45732
Home To:
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Hang'em High Holly
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Rockets Top Gun.
Gr.Nt.Ch.Hooper Ridge Rocket
Gr.Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Dolly
Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Queen
Nt.Ch Raw Dawg Rowdy
PR Tree Banging Buddy
HOOPER RIDGE ENGLISH-POUND FOR POUND THEY ARE ONE TOUGH HOUND!!!!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2835

Dave, I do feel it is important for a dog to be able to find a coon track, however finding something undetermined to bark at and/or nothing at all, and getting a point value for barking is what bothers me. If everyone hunted honest mouthed and straight dogs i could see your point. Lowering strike points but not eliminating them, or making all strike points the same, would be a happy medium in my opinion.

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

I have been saying for years that i would like to see them all strike for 50.
I hate it when dogs are cut and they all leave runnin their mouths, then the ones that never shut up get struck as soon as the minute is up.
Some guys seem to equate barkin with how hard a dog hunts for a track and thats just wrong. (runnin a track and runnin their mouth are unrelated)
Most of the guys that like the strike system the way it is are leadin a babbler and just dont know any better or they are not active in the hunts, i say this because an honest strike dog can never get struck first against the automatic dogs.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2014
Location:
Posts: 25

I think strike um for a number 1st 2nd 3rd or 4th and score um when you get to the tree and have a new set of strike points every time you turn a dog loose.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2244

I respect your position John. I do understand your intent. I just don't see all this babbling idiots that steal 1st strike from everyone on every cast I go on, like is mentioned by the supporters of this type of rule. Did those type dogs make it to the final 4??

I don't know, but I doubt it that any of those top 20 were babblers, let alone the top 4.

Now I know babblers are out there, I have seen them too. BUT, I have not YET seen them be so prevalent that a point change is needed to address the issue. Strong judging is helpful to address this, but many times the actual folks complaining about a dog stealing their strike points, are folks that hunt (and like) a tighter mouthed dog.

I do believe your proposal would level the playing field to the point that finding the coon track would not impact the outcome of the cast winner, as much as treeing the coon does. Having said that, UKC has already staggered the point system to credit the tree dog. This proposal would only give that much more credit to the sneaky tight lipped coon catcher.

I may be in the minority on this subject, but I still like to hear a good race before I have to start walking to a tree, LOL.

Call me Old Fashioned!!

__________________
Phone-740-767-2572
Dave Mayles
11210 Davis Road
Glouster, Ohio 45732
Home To:
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Hang'em High Holly
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Rockets Top Gun.
Gr.Nt.Ch.Hooper Ridge Rocket
Gr.Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Dolly
Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Queen
Nt.Ch Raw Dawg Rowdy
PR Tree Banging Buddy
HOOPER RIDGE ENGLISH-POUND FOR POUND THEY ARE ONE TOUGH HOUND!!!!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2015
Location:
Posts: 33

Everyone should strike in for 25. For one dogs get hunt smart. They get sick of me too cover dogs running in and treeing with them. So while they have been running track for some time they open shortly before they tree just to try in get away from tailgaters. 2nd you have the babblers getting credit for striking. 3rd a lot of dogs are getting credit for strike when they are in fact dog tracking (usally the cover dog) and yes one of these dogs did make it to the finale 4 this year. Then you have the dogs that fly in and run junk for 1st strike the fall off treed. The name of the game is treeing coon, not just running one if they never get treed it don't matter how fast they opened n a track.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Weyers Cave Va
Posts: 13408

The whole concept behind a comp hunt is to see which dog has the total package. Reducing strike points is not going to help prove which dog is the better dog.


To think a dog is tired of another dog coming I to its tree is NUTS. They are dogs.... Just because you as the handler do not like a dog that covers yours does not mean your dog has a problem with it....


All the problems in the hunts would work themselves out IF the handler of the dogs would admit to what their dogs are doing and take their points as they deserve them instead of trying to find any and every loop hole in the rules so they can plus their dog and minus the next guys.

__________________
Swampmusic Kennel
Remembering Our Past......
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Dohoney's Lobo
Ch.Swampmusic Lil Bit Sassy
Ch.Swampmusic Misty Shadow
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Boone
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Pride
But Looking To The Future...

Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Big Hoss




Dennis Robinson
Cell 540-295-3892

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

I get the point here and this thread so far has some very good points from some of the most intelligent best answering guys on this forum. Here is my idea, call me dull for its simplicity but...............
Why not just scratch the babblers????? If babbling dogs are the problem then lets get rid of them. I like to see strike awarded its due consideration. I want to go hunting and see a dog that can consistently go find a coon and get him going just as much as I want to hear that perfect locate or see a blow down tree dog...so, rather than discount what the good dogs can or are doing to address the bad, why not take the bad out on the bad dogs????

Edit: When UKC changed to 125 for first tree was when not too long after we started seeing a lot more tree fighters and slick treeing dogs. I would be afraid of what we might lose or create by altering strike points....I would like to see better strike dogs now. The other thing is that babbling, by and of itself is not too hard to break.

Last edited by msinc on 10-01-2015 at 03:10 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2835

I can see the answers about true honest strike dogs, scratching the babblers, etc being the way to go if that actually happened. If the dogs were honest and the handlers were honest then I don't have a problem one with the way the rules are written (except maybe a count down timer on the tree. lol). But, the truth of the matter is that they aren't all that way and I just threw this idea out to see if others thought that lowering the strike points a little, but still having them in decreasing amounts, would help. What I saw when running AKC hunts with their strike rules, it took the babbling dog out of the equation somewhat and tipped the scale to the dog that treed the most coon. Even in PKC with the recutting of dogs back in for a quarter on strike, other than the first turnout it balanced things out without giving too many more points to the loose mouthed dog.
I will say that even with honest mouthed dogs, giving more points to a dog that opens a few seconds quicker on a coon track than another dog doesn't really tell me that he/she is a better coon dog, just tells me she/he barks quicker.

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Hobo I 100 percent agree with you ! Two things the only way two fix the way things are are to put more time in the woods and less time in the hunts !! And third more thought and culling in the breeding pen ! The rules are just fine when enforced properly jmo.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Lucasville,Ohio
Posts: 437

I think the real problem is honesty and sportsmanship.If every handler was honest, instead of trying to give there dog an advantage, strike points would'nt be a problem.The rules are based on honesty and integrity. Without that, there will always be a problem.JMO

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:

---

Originally posted by ov_blues
I will say that even with honest mouthed dogs, giving more points to a dog that opens a few seconds quicker on a coon track than another dog doesn't really tell me that he/she is a better coon dog, just tells me she/he barks quicker.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

I dont know why but some guys always assume that the low end strike dog isnt hunting hard or that the tight mouth dog is a poor track dog that just ambles through the woods lookin to ambush a popup.
The way a dog uses his mouth has nothing to do with its drive or its track style or its ability to tree coon.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2835

quote:

---

Originally posted by msinc
It's not always just a matter of a couple seconds though, and my experience is that it's generally not most of the time...if one dog goes hunting and strikes a track 100 yards from where the other dogs are then he's the better dog. At least when it comes to finding and starting a track.
That is my problem with the idea that "we just give all dogs the same point value for striking."
I cannot wrap my brain around giving a fourth strike dog that is barely hunting the same points as the dog that just struck a coon 100 yards away.

---

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:

---

Originally posted by john Duemmer
I dont know why but some guys always assume that the low end strike dog isnt hunting hard or that the tight mouth dog is a poor track dog that just ambles through the woods lookin to ambush a popup.
The way a dog uses his mouth has nothing to do with its drive or its track style or its ability to tree coon.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2835

So using that example the slug gets 100 points on the card and whatever tree points he gets for backing the dog that trees the coon. Hope it isn't the dog who opens up last and gets treed first and slug is second or slug will be the cast winner. Lowering first strike to 75 would prevent that from happening

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:

---

Originally posted by ov_blues
So using that example the slug gets 100 points on the card and whatever tree points he gets for backing the dog that trees the coon. Hope it isn't the dog who opens up last and gets treed first and slug is second or slug will be the cast winner. Lowering first strike to 75 would prevent that from happening

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2835

quote:

---

Originally posted by msinc
Slugs are cast winners sometimes, you know that. If he lucked onto the coon that easy he might even luck onto the tree!!!!

What do we call this system??? "No dog left behind"

---

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 2760

quote:

---

Originally posted by john Duemmer
I dont know why but some guys always assume that the low end strike dog isnt hunting hard or that the tight mouth dog is a poor track dog that just ambles through the woods lookin to ambush a popup.
The way a dog uses his mouth has nothing to do with its drive or its track style or its ability to tree coon.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2014
Location: FLATWOODS SOUTH GA
Posts: 76

Please read the AKC strike rule for the first minute. Makes the most sense of any rule I have every read and hunted under. That rule covers about every situation that could possibly occur during or after the first minute.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2835

quote:

---

Originally posted by MIDNITE BLUE
Please read the AKC strike rule for the first minute. Makes the most sense of any rule I have every read and hunted under. That rule covers about every situation that could possibly occur during or after the first minute.

---

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2014
Location: FLATWOODS SOUTH GA
Posts: 76

quote:

---

Originally posted by ov_blues
I agree but I don't see that rule ever getting passed by the breed associations. My suggestion will never either. Lol

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2835

i agree with that for sure. With the minute rule as written it is almost impossible to enforce unless someone strikes their dog as the cast turns the dogs loose. More than one dog barking it is almost impossible unless someone wants to fist fight.

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2244

Mr. John Duemmer, I, many times agree with your assessment of hunting situations, and have great respect for your hunting knowledge, but on your last post I feel the need to respectfully disagree with your statement that, THE WAY A DOG USES IT'S MOUTH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ITS , DRIVE OR TRACK SPEED (OR it's ability to tree coon)

You see, It has been known for many many years that a silent training dog has an added advantage at treeing coons because that style allows that tight mouthed dog to sneak right up behind the coon before that coon even knows a dog is in pursuit. Thus is has a greater surprise attack advantage.

This is not new news, everybody knows that. Even the founding fathers of coon hunting were aware of that, and that is why they felt a silent trailing hound should be disqualified, because it was/is unsportsman like to ambush/sneak up on a coon by running the track with their mouth shut. That is why the point system is staggered, to give more credit to the dog that opens first on a coon track, so the coon knows it is being chased.

So I guess my point is that for the most part, the tighter your dog is on the ground, the bigger the advantage it has for treeing the coon. So YES in my opinion, a dog keeping its mouth shut DOES affect its ability to tree a coon.

Just as it is unsportsman like to sucker punch a guy sitting on a bar stool, it is also unsportsman like to sneak up on a coon without opening your mouth to let the coon know you are coming.

Let the rules in place scratch the babbler, and then all is well with everyone.

__________________
Phone-740-767-2572
Dave Mayles
11210 Davis Road
Glouster, Ohio 45732
Home To:
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Hang'em High Holly
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Rockets Top Gun.
Gr.Nt.Ch.Hooper Ridge Rocket
Gr.Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Dolly
Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Queen
Nt.Ch Raw Dawg Rowdy
PR Tree Banging Buddy
HOOPER RIDGE ENGLISH-POUND FOR POUND THEY ARE ONE TOUGH HOUND!!!!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged