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nitehunter2004
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12074

If my character is being judged by speaking the truth, Well Iím Ok with that.
Have a great day.

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Old Post 11-18-2019 08:57 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3534

Tim Osborne

What TRUTH did you speak? You made a false and unfounded statement the I and others would only use and responses you made to tear your responses apart with false conspiracy theories and unfounded statements. You tell me what is the TRUTH in your allegations. I am in no way part of any conspiracy theory regarding you or your dogs and you MADE a FALSE statement regarding that allegation. Why you would make this statement amazes me, since I have been one if your strongest supporters, complimenting your stock of dogs many times on this forum. I am not part of any if your issues with any other forum members and you were wrong to make any reference to me regarding any conspiracy theory. Insecurity on your part does not make me guilty of anything and your unwillingness to accept wrongdoing on your part speaks for your character. Dave

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Old Post 11-18-2019 09:24 PM
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nitehunter2004
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12074

Dave I apologizes to you but apparently that was not good enough so you fill the need to pick every word apart and attack my character, well there ya go.
Again Have A Great Day!

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Old Post 11-19-2019 01:01 AM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 856

Re: Mr. Lambert/Tim Osborne

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Both of you have been breeding dogs for years now, Why don't you guys share your thoughts on these questions being asked, after several generations of the same line of dogs, you guys should be able to address these questions as to your own experiences. Are your desirable traits being passed on and how many generations are you seeing them in, is it a trait and not learned behavior? Is it dominant or recessive? Any bad traits that you have tried to eliminate? Have you been successful in eliminating them and if so, how many generations did it take? Does anything popup in New generations that were not seen in previous generations? Have you been able to put any new traits in your breeding stock? Have you lost any desirable traits in the newest generations? Do you breed for improvement of the breed? How successful have you been in improving the breed? If so, how many generations did it take? Are you getting better dogs with each newer generation or are the dogs not as good as prior generations? Answer these questions based on your own experiences that way they should be factual. Thank you guys in advance. Dave


I can answer some of these questions
On what I have seen...

I donít worry about traits so much...I put more emphasis on what I consider the complete package...a dog that takes the tracks as they come...but not too cold nosed because I want to catch game today...a dog that will operate off of wind currents as well...not just a track minded dog...a dog that starts out close and works outwardly in a circle or if the woods are out in front of me to cover those woods...he can take a track at a quarter mile and take it out as far as needed to locate the game...the dog doesnít hunt at a high rate of speed but at a good loping speed probably between 7 to 10 mph...if Iím not moving the dog will check in and will keep on moving and ranging out further...if Iím moving on a 4wheeler the dog will hunt around me as I move along...

The best defense is a good offense...test the pups for natural born inclinations to wind, excel in finding, tracking, locating and for natural ranging and early starting...and that begets more of the same...do not compromise and each generation can improve or maintain...

From mostly the same dogs over 5 and 6 generations my dogs seemed to hunt harder and faster and with more grit...I tested my pups and I kept at least 4 pups even if I was only keeping one because I wanted the very best that was closest to the complete package...usually if I was keeping one I usually kept two if they met my standards...

Itís not about one trait...itís about the complete package...and that package should be made up of natural born talent...

Folks will say...donít put the pup in the woods or he might get ruined by a boar hog...and this is what I say about it...if that 7 month old pup gets ruined by that experience then he wasnít worth keeping...because there are pups that can take a licking and keep on ticking...those are the ones we should breed...

Part of having the right traits can be due to proper environment and that comes through proper handling...

A lot of times we do not know if it is a recessive or dominant trait...but we do know that when two recessives pair up it will be displayed...and when a dominant pairs up with a recessive then the dominant will be displayed...if two dominants pair up for a trait then it will be displayed...

So the best defense is a good offense...just make sure the traits you want are displayed with the sire and dam and then test the pups...and donít bet on one pup...keep several and keep the best one for hunting and breeding...

Sounds simple and it is...the hard part is finding a line of dogs that is at least half way decent...

My personal opinions on the subject...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 11-19-2019 01:47 AM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3534

Tim Osborne

Well since you did not address any of my concerns as to why you made those comments in the first place, did you in fact apologize? It's easy to say things that are inaccurate and blame someone else for ones own mistakes. Never have I given you any reason to think that I would made any conspiracy theory remarks about you or your dogs. You are in fact the one that made that remark in one post and went on to say you spoke the TRUTH in a later post. I did not attack your character, I only stated the facts. You made unfounded remarks that you can not back up and state you told the TRUTH, Really! If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's most likely a duck, based on 60 plus years of my experience with ducks. Have a nice day. Dave

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Old Post 11-19-2019 02:33 AM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3534

Reuben

It's a shame you were not a coonhunters, I think you would have been a breeder that would have made a positive impact on our coon dogs. Definitely one that folks could trust and one that wanted the best dogs he could get. If I was a hog hunter, I would want some of your stock of dogs to hunt. Dave

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Old Post 11-19-2019 02:37 AM
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Chuck Allen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
Posts: 1107

Ya'll tell me My Sandy 2 Dog is only 1/8 Redbone , her sire is my Curly dog 1/4 RB , his Sire was Fido 1/2 Redbone , Boomer was his Sire a PR Redbone out of my Sandy Dog and Kim Clarks Tree Fiddling Snake and she looks and sounds just like my ole Sandy Dog to a T , even Locates like her.

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When the law of the land becomes unjust outlaws will rise to take their place in history.

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Old Post 11-19-2019 09:04 AM
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nitehunter2004
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12074

Re: Tim Osborne

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Well since you did not address any of my concerns as to why you made those comments in the first place, did you in fact apologize? It's easy to say things that are inaccurate and blame someone else for ones own mistakes. Never have I given you any reason to think that I would made any conspiracy theory remarks about you or your dogs. You are in fact the one that made that remark in one post and went on to say you spoke the TRUTH in a later post. I did not attack your character, I only stated the facts. You made unfounded remarks that you can not back up and state you told the TRUTH, Really! If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's most likely a duck, based on 60 plus years of my experience with ducks. Have a nice day. Dave

You have 60 years experience on Anything ever talked about on this board, we all know not to speak of you in any way that you may not understand because the attacks from you will Keep coming until You get the last word! Yes I apologize to you but it didnít meet your conditions so It didnít count and you could not let it go you had to pick every word apart just like I said you would in my original post, Well you donít intimidate me in any way cause Dave Iím not as good as I once was but Iím as good once as I ever was.

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Old Post 11-19-2019 02:08 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9605

Re: Re: Tim Osborne

quote:
Originally posted by nitehunter2004
You have 60 years experience on Anything ever talked about on this board, we all know not to speak of you in any way that you may not understand because the attacks from you will Keep coming until You get the last word! Yes I apologize to you but it didnít meet your conditions so It didnít count and you could not let it go you had to pick every word apart just like I said you would in my original post, Well you donít intimidate me in any way cause Dave Iím not as good as I once was but Iím as good once as I ever was.



Come on Tim ! Ainít nobody wants to argue. You were the furthest from my mind when I gave my opinion on dna. And yes there is a way around it. Not saying anybody does it anymore and for one I could care less if they do. I am on the I just want to have fun stage of my life. Donít sweat the small stuff.


Tar

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Old Post 11-19-2019 02:15 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17703

So Chuck, that is 4 generations isn't it? You can carefully breed new traits in, breed old traits out or just keep the ones you have for 4-7 generations. And sometimes they just seem to pop in or out no matter what you do. Breeding sure can get complicated.

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Old Post 11-19-2019 02:17 PM
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nitehunter2004
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12074

Re: Re: Re: Tim Osborne

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Come on Tim ! Ainít nobody wants to argue. You were the furthest from my mind when I gave my opinion on dna. And yes there is a way around it. Not saying anybody does it anymore and for one I could care less if they do. I am on the I just want to have fun stage of my life. Donít sweat the small stuff.


Tar


Make no mistake about it Iím having the best years of my life, see I came to your defense not once but twice an you stabbed me in the back.

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Old Post 11-19-2019 02:23 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9605

Re: Re: Re: Re: Tim Osborne

quote:
Originally posted by nitehunter2004
Make no mistake about it Iím having the best years of my life, see I came to your defense not once but twice an you stabbed me in the back.




Ainít nobody stabbing you or downing your accomplishments have fun with what your doing. I got the same stuff you got be foolish for me to down you.

Itís all good.

Tar

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Old Post 11-19-2019 02:49 PM
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nitehunter2004
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12074

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tim Osborne

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Ainít nobody stabbing you or downing your accomplishments have fun with what your doing. I got the same stuff you got be foolish for me to down you.

Itís all good.

Tar


Itís All in Fun, see I like being A Stand Up Guy always have been but it has a new meaning after I started Standing Up For My Self.

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Old Post 11-19-2019 03:17 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3534

Tim Osborne

You really have a way of showing any real appreciation to anyone that tries to befriend you. In your mind you have convinced yourself that folks are out to malign you, even the ones that have fully supported you, even the ones that have never gave you a reason to think otherwise. I have not been a party to anything even remotely linked to belittling you or your dogs. Everything I have stated is the TRUTH, can you say the same? You must be paranoid to even think that other folks just want to pick you apart with some conspiracy idea. Lol. As far as being as good once as I ever was, well I have accepted the fact that I am NOT. I have nothing to prove to anyone. You can argue with someone that cares what you think and that's not me! I wish you the best. Dave

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Old Post 11-19-2019 05:46 PM
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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1238

Re: Traits Passed On

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
How many generations does a male or female pass their traits on? I know that the sire and dam each only pass 50% of their genetic makeup to their pups. So their grand pups only have 25% of their genetic makeup and their great grandpups only have 12.5% of their genetic makeup. So how far down the line do y'all think that you can see traits from a dog's ancestor?


Everyone has an opinion. Please don't beat me up over this reply!!! Happens a lot when folks don't like the answer so they shoot the messenger.
Just remember too in another post I warned you guys I know a good bit but, just enough to get in trouble

First off it has been proven and discredited and that this analysis at one time a wide spread belief is not true or correct.
It just seems logical .And we all believe this to be so .Study our pedigrees . Our common sense says it can be no other way.
The problem is the diminishing of inheritance traits from some ancestors while others persist.
The first and foremost would be recognizing what traits the sire and dam possess and from where those traits came from. The percentages are nice but totally inaccurate .
Yes, the offspring receive 50 % of their DNA from each parent. But a pup can be more closely related to a great grandparent then their own sire and dam.
Buried recessive genes can rear their ugly head(if unwanted) if both parents carry the same gene anywhere in their ancestry and they match up when bred can show up in the pups.
They are there in the genes just waiting to pair up when both parents carry it. They cannot be bred out. Only hidden.
Double dominant whether recessive or dominant depending on the trait can be good or bad depending on if it is a trait we want. So being recessive is not always a bad thing either.
So to answer the question more precisely you could have a trait from 5-6 generations back show up if they happen to connect when a breeding is made.

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IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Last edited by Pat Bizich on 11-20-2019 at 05:42 PM

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Old Post 11-20-2019 05:38 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17703

Re: Re: Traits Passed On

quote:
Originally posted by Pat Bizich
So to answer the question more precisely you could have a trait from 5-6 generations back show up if they happen to connect when a breeding is made.


Now that part I understand. But can't you breed out a trait whether it is dominant or recessive? If you breed a male with a double dominant or DD trait to a female with a double recessive, rr, recessive and dominate Dr or double recceise, rr, trait then you can get a pup with a Dr. Now if you breed that pup to a dog with a Dr or rr, you can get a double recessive or rr trait. You have bred out the original DD trait haven't you?

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Old Post 11-20-2019 06:33 PM
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Black Ash Bawl
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: WI
Posts: 165

more complicated

A lot of the traits we are breeding for have more than one pair of genes that influence that trait. If you do the math on just 4 sets of genes you will see there are many possibilities for the pup to receive from the parents.

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Old Post 11-20-2019 07:49 PM
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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1238

Re: more complicated

quote:
Originally posted by Black Ash Bawl
A lot of the traits we are breeding for have more than one pair of genes that influence that trait. If you do the math on just 4 sets of genes you will see there are many possibilities for the pup to receive from the parents.


Exactly. Perfect answer. Every trait is not set. They have other genes that influence the way we see them manifest in each individual hound.
Here is the crazy part, Dominant traits are easier to breed out and lose then recessive ones. Recessive ones just keep coming back to haunt (if its one you don't want)you if you make the wrong cross.

Here is the way I seen it explained...
Say you breed a Manchester Terrier to a Doberman Pincher . You will get all black and tan pups.
Now from that cross you breed to a Black and Tan coonhound.
All these dogs are dominant for Black and Tan coat color so this will be a fixed trait.
You are going to have a dominant color of Black and Tan color in the pups but it will have nothing to do with whether any of them will have hound traits ,trail, or tree a coon. Even if all the pups look like the Coonhound.

One reason I have made this statement to many. "To be successful . You have to eat, sleep ,and breathe your dogs. You have to be honest with yourself and admit where your hound is getting its traits. " Not because you want it to be like ole' Spot but because it really does take after ole' Bell instead.
I know a guy that about flipped out on me because I told him his dog was out of some other breeding then what he wanted to say it was. Dog showed all the traits of this other line but he refused to admit it. That people ,is an ignorant breeder . Not a smart one. Blinded by his own prejudice to a certain line of breeding.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Last edited by Pat Bizich on 11-20-2019 at 08:50 PM

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Old Post 11-20-2019 08:35 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3534

Pat Bizich/Black Ash Bawl

Excellent posts and excellent answers, therein lies the reasons why we can't breed generation after generation of World Class dogs. Dave

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Old Post 11-20-2019 08:49 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 856

Re: Re: Re: Traits Passed On

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Now that part I understand. But can't you breed out a trait whether it is dominant or recessive? If you breed a male with a double dominant or DD trait to a female with a double recessive, rr, recessive and dominate Dr or double recceise, rr, trait then you can get a pup with a Dr. Now if you breed that pup to a dog with a Dr or rr, you can get a double recessive or rr trait. You have bred out the original DD trait haven't you?


The color black is dominant and you breed to a yellow dog which is a recessive color to black...

You breed the yellow dog with the black dog and all pups are born black... more than likely the black dog inherited double dominant black which means he inherited one black from each parent so when bred to recessive yellow all pups had to be black...

Different scenario with black dog breeding yellow dog...this time there are 4 black pups and 3 yellow pups...in the case the black dogs parents were one black parent and one yellow parent and he inherited one yellow from the yellow parent and a black gene or maybe itís chromosomes from the other parent...

Both scenarios all black will produce both colors if bred to each other...because all yellow pups are double recessives for yellow for them to be yellow...

If you breed the yellow to yellow all pups will be yellow...

If you breed all black to black you will get black and yellow...but breeding the offspring black to black the law of average will prevail...as time goes by more and more pups will be black because some pups will be double black so they will always produce black when bred to yellow...so the yellow chromosome will be eliminated over time...


But there are other things that can put a kink in the link...some breeds are called other colors besides yellow like apricot. Blond, buttermilk, fawn, tan or red and people call a sable dog yellow etc...then you have dogs that appear to be yellow but really are brindle or a leopard...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 11-20-2019 11:36 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 856

traits can be bred in and bred out...some will pop up when we least expect it to happen...my belief is that a good offense is the best defense...so only breed dogs that display the traits we want and you will increase the percentages in your favor over time...

If you bring in new and unrelated dogs to breed then it could be a setback in consistency when it comes to the pups but you might get better specimens (hybrid vigor) but will produce lower percentages of quality pups...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 11-21-2019 01:42 AM
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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3534

Reuben

Some things like color we understand better as to what is dominant, it's certain things that we don't understand exactly as to the true nature of what trait is dominant and what trait is recessive. Pinpointing what is actually a trait and what is training is the hard part, but getting down to knowing what traits are going to be dominant or were the right combination of recessive genes is even more difficult. You, as a breeder are trying to breed the best to the best for those traits you desire, are you discovering new things that you can say are traits that your dogs pass on? I respect your opinion on this subject. Dave

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 856

Dave

I chose to talk about color and also chose black and yellow because it is probably the easiest example...

The best line of dogs I had was between 1988 and 2008 when I thought I had enough experience for a good breeding program and so I created a goal and a plan on how to accomplish it...I tweaked and improved it along the way...really a lot of the good works was done before me...I used Mt curs from big game (bear and hog) and top coon and squirrel world champion lines and then bred those together...line breeding and inbreeding...every dog I bred was a good dog...maybe not perfect but better than most...I didnít select for any one trait...I selected for the complete package as to what I wanted...

I liked grit, early starters, dogs that hunted with me but taking tracks as they come...absolutely no straight running dogs that passed up good tracks...but dogs that start close and circle further out as needed and striking game and not take long doing it and getting further out quickly as needed...and stick with a bad running hog as long as it takes to get the job done...

The biggest thing for me is selecting for natural ability through natural inclination and I was and am able to do this by testing the pups...

My mindset is like this...if a litter of 8 pups are tested for winding and on the first time of testing one or two pups put their noses to the wind and lock in without any coaxing then that is natural inclination...and if over the next 4 or 5 sessions all are doing it then it is a good thing but I give more points to those that did it on their own the first time...natural inclination for winding...so what type of dogs do we want to breed? the kind that we have to put through many winding scenarios before they get it or...those that are winding naturally without any training to speak of...or do we breed those that we feed many tracks to get them to hunt...or do we breed the kind that can pass on that natural inclination to hunt naturally or strikes naturally or whatever we test for that tested naturally...it should be a no brained... breed those that tested for natural and who went on to prove themselves as great hunting dogs...natural ability begets more natural ability... and

Something else I will say about traits...as generations went by I had dogs with more hunt and more grit...more hunt to the point of overheating and dying from heat exhaustion if not calling them out of the woods...

I will also say this...my personal theory based on what I have seen...it is not only about the dog that makes him or her great...it is what is inside the dog that makes them great...what you can not see...which is the ability to pass on traits better than themselves...and that is true because I have seen it...

I see on here what many will say...I tone my dog in...I train my dog to do what I want with the Garmin...that is ok and it is great handling...but when those dogs get bred they beget more of the same type and then we wonder why there is so many culls...great handlers can do these things but the average handler will not be able to hunt this type of dog...

Right now I can tell you I have culled many pups and I have decent dogs but I can not say they will reproduce consistently at this point in time but I am headed in the right direction...

These are about the best answers I can give you...which is my personal opinions based on what I have seen and through that I have developed my personal theories on breeding and training...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Dave Richards
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Reuben

As always you gave truthful answers based on knowledge and experience and your observations that you witnessed. Knowing what you WANT and being able to see that in a pup takes experience and hands on experience. Select breeding and seeing these traits appear in future generations prove you are making the right choices. Breeders breeding based on paper just to sell pups are not going to have the results you have. Most probably don't care, it's just money in their pocket. I could never be a breeder, as I get attached to the puppies and I definitely have no desire to be a trainer. I do respect breeders such as yourself that have the desire to produce the best dogs they can and know what they are doing to get the best. Breeding dogs based on titles does little to improve the breed, as has been proven many times by many different breeders, all it does is help sell pups. Big game hunters have proved thatbreeding based on performance is what really matters most and that an all grand pedigree means little in predicting the quality of a pup. I buy dogs based on their performance , an all grand pedigree means nothing to me, as the saying goes " papers don't tree coons" or anything else. Dave

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novicane65
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Registered: Dec 2013
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Posts: 1273

Re: Reuben

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
As always you gave truthful answers based on knowledge and experience and your observations that you witnessed. Knowing what you WANT and being able to see that in a pup takes experience and hands on experience. Select breeding and seeing these traits appear in future generations prove you are making the right choices. Breeders breeding based on paper just to sell pups are not going to have the results you have. Most probably don't care, it's just money in their pocket. I could never be a breeder, as I get attached to the puppies and I definitely have no desire to be a trainer. I do respect breeders such as yourself that have the desire to produce the best dogs they can and know what they are doing to get the best. Breeding dogs based on titles does little to improve the breed, as has been proven many times by many different breeders, all it does is help sell pups. Big game hunters have proved thatbreeding based on performance is what really matters most and that an all grand pedigree means little in predicting the quality of a pup. I buy dogs based on their performance , an all grand pedigree means nothing to me, as the saying goes " papers don't tree coons" or anything else. Dave


Going to PM you Dave.

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