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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17703

The Ghost is exactly right. There is a difference between an independent dog and a dead loner or old deep and alone. Hunters started out breeding for independence and ended up with dead loners. We used to call the dead loaners, "independent to a fault". Is it time to roll back some of that deep and alone?

On another note, Tarbaby that "cover late get ate syndrome" comes from old deep and alone being a social retard. Maybe those handlers with those t-shirts are just like their dogs.

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Old Post 11-15-2019 02:08 PM
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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2161

I read Ghost14's post 4 times and I like it more each time I read it. Except maybe his last sentence. Good football teams "kneel it" when the win is in the bag.

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Old Post 11-15-2019 03:37 PM
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high ridge
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3044

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
And independent dogs are not dead loners.

Independent dogs will be second sometimes, and get covered without being bothered.

Dead loners are social retards.



100% correct in my opinion

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Old Post 11-15-2019 04:20 PM
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Preacher Tom
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 620

This is not exactly on point but it is something I would like to know. How many punish a dog for coming into a tree? Have seen it done and wonder how common it is. I admit sometimes I have considered it with my dog because his biggest fault can be covering on a slick. Doesn't do it often but he does sometimes.

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Old Post 11-15-2019 06:10 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 4240

.

I know some people that will never out a coon to their dog if another dog is on the tree with it. They want a coon they will be alone.

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Old Post 11-15-2019 06:25 PM
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Corey Gruver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA
Posts: 1607

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
I know some people that will never out a coon to their dog if another dog is on the tree with it. They want a coon they will be alone.


Same here Bruce. I've seen quite a few "man-made" loners out there too.

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Old Post 11-15-2019 06:30 PM
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Josh Michaelis
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
Posts: 2100

quote:
Originally posted by Preacher Tom
This is not exactly on point but it is something I would like to know. How many punish a dog for coming into a tree? Have seen it done and wonder how common it is. I admit sometimes I have considered it with my dog because his biggest fault can be covering on a slick. Doesn't do it often but he does sometimes.


I've done it. I don't like dogs treeing together.

If you never reward them for it you rarely have to correct it.

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Old Post 11-15-2019 06:31 PM
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Josh Michaelis
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
Posts: 2100

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
I know some people that will never out a coon to their dog if another dog is on the tree with it. They want a coon they will be alone.


I'm one of those people.

I can't remember the last time I let two dogs chew on the same coon.

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Old Post 11-15-2019 06:33 PM
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high ridge
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3044

I stop mine from covering before they get to the tree. The collar will change their mind. But, from time to time some of the hard heads still come in and one has to send them from that tree with corrections. If they have intelligence they learn from the experience that the collar means change course.

I only do that though if the dog is truly just coming to cover IE, 500 yards other way and heard a dog treed and starts scrambling that way. That to me is a covering dog

Like Josh mine do not chew on fur with another dog.

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Old Post 11-15-2019 06:35 PM
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Larry Atherton
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6495

When I think of dogs in the 80s and 90s that were often deep and alone, I think of Red Eagle Dick dogs and some Lone Pine dogs. Don't get me wrong the Dick dogs were coon dogs. They could sure get out of the pocket fast! That is what we called it back then. I know my buddy and I raised several Lone Pine dogs, and they were all silent and deep and lonely dogs. I know from other experiences this wasn't always the case with Lone Pine dogs.

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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3534

Josh Michaelis

I agree that independent dogs are not bothered by being covered, I want an independent dog that's indifferent to what the other dogs do. I do not want a dead loner. While you may have reasons for saying brains are over rated, I put brains first on my list. I don't have multiply handlers, so that's not a problem for me or my dogs. Some dogs don't care who the handler is, while some dogs perform better for a certain handler, I want mine to perform for me. Dave

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Old Post 11-15-2019 07:29 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9605

Ole deep and alone wouldnít have lived long before we had tracking systems. You donít believe me let a kc say they stopped the usage of tracking systems and watch the screaming start lol.


Tar

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Old Post 11-15-2019 11:46 PM
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Preacher Tom
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 620

Just one more thought on independent. Back in the early 70's in western OKLA there weren't many coon. I think our coon population works in favor of independent dogs. There is a coon to find no matter which way they go.

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Old Post 11-16-2019 12:05 AM
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Ghost14
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2014
Location:
Posts: 140

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
I read Ghost14's post 4 times and I like it more each time I read it. Except maybe his last sentence. Good football teams "kneel it" when the win is in the bag.


You are exactly right. A poor example on my part. It was about the attitudes of hunters more than the act. Itís crazy that a dog treeing a coon 500 yards from another dog would cause someone to ďcorrectĒ a dog for coming into that tree. So many things go through my mind before any of that occurs. Why was that dog struck in and treed before mine at that distance? And then I punish the dog for coming to a coon? If they are slick then by all means correct away. If thereís a coon there then I donít have near enough dog to think I should win. But thatís what the loner crowd wants, they want to tree coons without competition. Basically, HTX hunts but pretend they beat competition. Then, many of them talk down about HTX titles because those dogs had no competition. So many questions?

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Old Post 11-16-2019 12:47 AM
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high ridge
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3044

Itís not crazy in my opinion to correct one for coming from 500 yards away.
If that dog wanted to tree a coon with that dog it should have been there from the beginning. Not going some other way and then locking up and running to the treed dog as a crutch.

I will agree though if that dog is consistently getting struck and treed ahead of mine then I donít have much to win with.

I no genius nor to I encourage anyone to hunt the way I do or think I should. I just like these common country coondogs.

I am 100% for anyone to hunt what they like how they like.

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Old Post 11-16-2019 01:36 AM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3534

Ghost14

So many folks questioned the ability of Night Champion and Grand Night Champions to actually tree a coon by themselves that the HTX PROGRAM was put in place as a way of folks proving their dogs could tree coons by themselves. The HTX Program was never intended to be a competition, only a proving ground. Myself, I want a dog that trees coons as they come to them, cold, hot or layup coons, a coon dog will do that. The new no leash lock rule should negate the deep and lonely babbling type dogs that strike first and tree a mile deep. I think we will start seeing winners that tree coons that the deep and lonely dogs ran over trying to get away from the other dogs. Dave

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Old Post 11-16-2019 01:42 AM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 856

Re: Ghost14

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
So many folks questioned the ability of Night Champion and Grand Night Champions to actually tree a coon by themselves that the HTX PROGRAM was put in place as a way of folks proving their dogs could tree coons by themselves. The HTX Program was never intended to be a competition, only a proving ground. Myself, I want a dog that trees coons as they come to them, cold, hot or layup coons, a coon dog will do that. The new no leash lock rule should negate the deep and lonely babbling type dogs that strike first and tree a mile deep. I think we will start seeing winners that tree coons that the deep and lonely dogs ran over trying to get away from the other dogs. Dave


Yes sir Dave...a good coon dog should win most of the time...competition hunts should be set up for the best coon dogs to win day in and day out...the rest will fall in place...there will be better coon dogs as time goes by...

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Old Post 11-16-2019 02:13 AM
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groworg1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2008
Location: Gillett, Pa
Posts: 1696

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Ole deep and alone wouldnít have lived long before we had tracking systems. You donít believe me let a kc say they stopped the usage of tracking systems and watch the screaming start lol.


Tar

x2 if they couldn't strike within hearing they didn't last long

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Old Post 11-18-2019 04:29 AM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17703

I had a real nice dog when I first started. He treed a coon somewhere every time that you turned him loose. He had a huge mouth and opened good on track. But if I didnt hear him strike within 10 minutes, I got back in my vehicle and started driving around listening for him. Most of my coonhunting was spent looking for my dog. I was much younger then and didn't mind spending a lot of time walking. We didn't have near as many houses either. I sure wouldn't keep/hunt him now.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 11-18-2019 at 02:26 PM

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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2161

quote:
Originally posted by high ridge
Itís not crazy in my opinion to correct one for coming from 500 yards away.
If that dog wanted to tree a coon with that dog it should have been there from the beginning. Not going some other way and then locking up and running to the treed dog as a crutch.

I will agree though if that dog is consistently getting struck and treed ahead of mine then I donít have much to win with.

I no genius nor to I encourage anyone to hunt the way I do or think I should. I just like these common country coondogs.

I am 100% for anyone to hunt what they like how they like.

You like a common country coondog that won't get on a tree with his kennel mate? Hmmmmmm.

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Old Post 11-18-2019 03:04 PM
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KEVIN MOSES
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: ATHENS,TN.
Posts: 194

Mongo

Richard wasn't the old mongo dog you had a closer, busy, smart hunter that treed a lot of coon by himself that lots of dogs ran past? Seems like he had a good reputation and you won quite a bit of money with him.

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17703

Kevin, that was back in the "good old days". Mongo treed every coon in the woods that you sent him into.

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Old Post 11-18-2019 03:28 PM
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Josh Michaelis
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
Posts: 2100

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
You like a common country coondog that won't get on a tree with his kennel mate? Hmmmmmm.


I like them better than a dog that does tree with his kennel mate.

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hat creek mac
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Oak Grove, La.
Posts: 1524

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
I like them better than a dog that does tree with his kennel mate.


X2!

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Old Post 11-18-2019 04:19 PM
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dean jamerson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2006
Location: Pamplin Va.
Posts: 447

Hunted with Tar Hill Henry in early 90ís he was by himself with a coon, in fact he made a point to go the opposite direction of what every thing else did the night I hunted with him. I had a Nailor bred bitch that never made a tree with a dog from the first time she treed till i sold her, she might be 20 yards or or she might have been 1/2 mile but she was always by herself. I think these dogs have always been around, it just took someone to recognize the benefit of hunting this type of hound. I like one to do their on work, pack hunts often turn into calling contest, and if you are alone you dont have to deal with the tree jackers and the yackers around the tree. I see way more benefit to be alone than to be packed up.

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