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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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How many have patterned a pedigree?

I have bee studying pedigrees for a long time. Mostly Walker pedigrees and they have been the pedigrees that produce winners or the popular dog for period of time. Kind of like the Big Country dog is popular now. Bone Collector a few years ago and many others.

When I was young I could remember the names but as I get older I have substituted numbers for names. What I am looking for more than the names in a bloodline. Is a breeding pattern of the dogs relationships. Outcross, line bred or inbred. What I do is take a pedigree. I change the names to numbers. No particular order. Say rex is 1, bob is 2 and on and on. I give the females numbers that start with 01 then 02 and on and on. What I am looking for is a pattern of the family breeding in a 5 or 7 generation pedigree. I also take brothers and give them the same number with a letter behind it.

There are several patterns that jump off the page at you and some that don't. Biggest thing is some females such as raccoon valley queen and taylors hardwood dixie. They came from a tight cross and had a huge impact. There are many more like them. The patterns are simple to see once the names are changed to numbers. Also with some symbols showing ability, I feel I have determined many a Great Dog had better grand sons and grand daughters than they did sons and daughters. I think Mathis Carolina Casey fits that description. Please don't pm me asking about any individual dogs. Most of this paperwork is folded up and put away and I have wasted most of my life wanting to know what makes these dogs tick. It is just a bunch of useless information that gives me some pleasure.
People that are going to breed don't want anyone else's opinion and that is fine.
I guess the biggest thing I am disappointed in is I feel the direct offspring of many solid breedings don't produce the number of good dogs they should in my opinion. But if you stick with it, the pups from the first generation will generally draw some attention.

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Dave Richards
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Bruce Conkey

While I am not nor ever have been a breeder ( no desire ) , I have saw pretty much the same thing, better pups as grandsons and grand daughters to a well known and good sire or grandmother. I think this holds for some desirable traits in humans as well. Grandsons and grand daughters inheriting traits from their grand parents that the children did not get. Look around and see what I am talking about, every thing from musical talent to aptitude for certain abilities the grand parents had, but not the parents. This makes me look harder at the grand parents on my pedigrees from dogs to horses, been doing that for years. Lol. Dave

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Redneck Mafia
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The Grandsire effect is what I call it.

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Richard Lambert
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Bruce, one of your examples, Racoon Valley Queen was not much of a coondog herself but was one of the top Reproducers. Not only did she reproduce corndogs but they were top Reproducers also. Now why is that?

You can get a severe headache trying to study pedigrees. I think that most successful breeders like to hear other successful breeders opinions. Sometimes they incorporate them and sometimes they don't. Since breeding coonhounds isn't an exact science, everyone just has their own opinions.

Just going by numbers takes the traits out of the equation. When you use names, in the back of your mind you also remember traits. By assigning #'s, you don't know just how good each dog in the equation was. You are only looking at "papers".

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novicane65
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Bruce, one of your examples, Racoon Valley Queen was not much of a coondog herself but was one of the top Reproducers. Not only did she reproduce corndogs but they were top Reproducers also. Now why is that?

You can get a severe headache trying to study pedigrees....




Wipeout Paige is in that same boat. She could tree coons but she struggled to do it. But she reproduced some very good dogs out of anything she was bred to.

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Driftwoodblue
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the grand dam

Richard.. I sure do believe that the Dam's side carries a good bit more effect on the pups than the sire... get that good producing female and look at her mother.. it has been proven that mitochondrial DNA is passed from generation to generation thru the mothers side.. not so from the male. being that it may, having that great producing female is a key to carrying on a good line.
I am not a competition hunter and am pretty hard of hearing.. way back in the 70's I stumbled across a real good female that produced some real nice cooners in the woods.. That bloodline is still back of my hounds... yes there has been some duds but those never got to produce their likeness!
That is one of the keys -- select for the traits you want and CULL HEAVY.

I do believe that some of the good traits are more often showing up in the 2nd generation.
one example that I know of was when making an outcross, the results were sometimes a bit short of desired results, but when using that to go back to that old line then close to the desired results appeared a good bit of the time.

the wheel breeding method has been discussed and it has some merit

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Kler Kry
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Breeding Selection

I am more qualified to advise what not to do than what to do when it comes to breeding advise! It is more important to use individuals that display the desired traits within a bloodline than it is to select mates by "pattern" breeding.
Most of the performance traits that I desire are recessively controlled and that is why they appears to skip a generation. This is why linebreeding works better for me. The more traits that you try to match up in the potential mates , the more difficult it is to achieve success. It is like juggling balls; trying to handle too manty traits in a cross will result in dropping the most important ones. I have a list of traits that I have ZERO tolerance for and will not consider a dog with them no matter how great the dog is at treeing a coon or winning World Championships.
If you have not personally evaluated a dog then chances are that they will not satisfy you. There are a lot of "used car" type coonhunters out there that will tell you what you want to hear. I hunted with a lot of the highly advertised dogs and winners in the 70s and 80 and was always disappointed, but my measuring yardstick was better than I
realized. Take the best dog that you know of and go hunt with potential parents of your future pup. It will be money well spent.

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Bruce m. Conkey
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.

Richard, I only study the facts. If I knew the why's I would be as famous and you and Tar. The truth with hounds is I can give you facts. I draw my conclusions from the facts. But coonhunters egos won't let many coon hunters agree on anything. Especially message boards. Coon hunters take facts and turn them around just to argue.

I have another post on here asking about breeding for future breeding stock. I think many of the dogs that had an impact in the breeding pen were in fact an accidental breeding themself. Some Father/daughter crosses.

I know myself many years ago. I had a male out of hardwood dan that was fair at best. He accidentally bred one of my running walker deer hounds. She was really worthless. The results were some very good cold trailing, fast running deer hounds and hunted good or took a track. Matter of fact, their offspring in about 5 years were in about everyones pens in the hunting club..

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Dave Richards
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Bruce Conkey

Your posts are very interesting and make us think. You are correct in saying that some real good crosses were more of an accident. I had one of those accidents and the pups were amazing. Every one wants to know the secret when it comes to breeding and the cold hard truth is that it's mostly hit and miss. Ken Risley expressed it best when he said that the traits he desires are recessive and hard to BREED for consistently. Some traits like color are dominant and EASY to get consistently, while other traits are recessive and are hard to maintain. Dave

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yadkintar
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After all the generations I have put time in my dogs have just got to be normal dogs that just tree coons if you put them in them. No better or no worse than anybody else’s. That complete package eludes me so I just try and enjoy what I got if I had that top dog I don’t have the want to or desire to promote one anymore.


Every year I just loose a little more passion for the sport.


Tar

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Richard Edinger
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Question

Can a trait that is recessive in one dog be a dominant trait in another dog

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Bruce m. Conkey
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.

Go to Youtube and search the domestication of foxes.

Very good study of over 60 years of work with the results of domesticated foxes being born.

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Redneck Mafia
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Re: Question

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Edinger
Can a trait that is recessive in one dog be a dominant trait in another dog

The answer of if recessive traits can be the dominant that shows up is yes. The process of explaining how it happens is rather complicated.

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Dave Richards
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Jen Cummings

It is complicated but a simple explanation is when both the sire and dam are both carrying only the recessive genes for that trait, all you can get then is that trait unless you get a mutation and that's another story. Lol. Dave

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N Williams
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A few years ago we crossed my Dot Female to Hardtime Awesome. Well the cross did pretty well. We had one that made top 100 of ukc world right at his 2nd birthday. Had another win around $2000 and had a truck ticket right at her 2nd birthday. We made English breeder of the year in pkc and made the ukc reproducers list. Truth was none of those dogs suited me that I hunted with. Yes I kept 2 for a while and they were real coontreeing dogs but not special like there sire and dam. I’ve come to realize it takes a certain kind of hound to suite me. They must be a real hunting dog that is very independent. And they better produce a coon I see in a tree 70% of the time I put a leash on them and that’s counting dens against them. 2 w If they ever back on a slick it better be years before they do it again. I’ve just come to a conclusion that I’m to hard to please to try and do my own breeding and limit myself to a specific breed or line. I learned that breeding special to special don’t equal special. I will let all you guys do that and I will just get crazy with $$$$ and buy it if it suites me.

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Reuben
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Bruce...I think your research system is pretty awesome...those facts are clear...What is not clear is exactly how each dog really hunted and not just looking at titles...I am not saying that’s how you verified the quality of the dogs...I can see that someone using your system correctly could pick a few dogs or pups and start a breeding program based on that information...

I think what really makes a great breeding program is totally understanding what a great hunting dog is and breed accordingly (the best defense is a great offense )...only breed the great dogs in the pedigree but also verifying that the close relatives are of the same caliber...one dog that is in the pedigree close up that does not have the right qualities can cause a setback especially if it is not related...there are ways to minimize this by playing it safe...

In the previous posts it has been mentioned that females that weren’t up to a good hunting standard produced great offspring...I don’t think this is a good breeding practice because if every other breeding we bred this way we would lose the momentum and the quality would fall off...but I totally agree with breeding this way if you lose a great female and all you have left is a female that has good breeding but is not up to the standard...so she gets bred once and then select a few good females from her...when we have to go this route we have to look past the lesser female and not look at her but look at what is in her...look at the pups and further into the future...and only see the dam as a stepping stone to get us back on track...

All it takes is one wrong move and it can be a setback...

I also believe the female makes a bigger impact than the male for several reasons...for starters she is connected to the pups and I believe that if she is hunted while pregnant it will affect the pups in a positive manner...if she is calm with self confidence the puppies will more than likely display those qualities as a learned behavior or maybe a combination of both learned and inherited behavioral traits...however I will say the sire is just as important as the dam when it comes to producing better dogs over time...I also believe that great breeders when looking at the pedigree of all the dogs produced in their kennel that were used for breeding were of excellent hunting quality...if they can honestly say that then they should be producing better hunting dogs...

Also just because we linebreed does not mean we aren't bringing in unknowns as far as traits go...

I also think that a good breeder will spend many hours looking at the pros and cons when it comes to breeding better dogs...

Selecting the right dogs is part of a good breeding program...analyzing and selecting the right pups is another part...and finally training and giving the pups the opportunity to excel in the woods...hopefully one day that pup will be part of the next generation and at the minimum reproduce himself but the goal is to see improvement whether it is in higher percentages of quality pups or improvements in hunting traits...again my opinion

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Bruce m. Conkey
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.

Ruben, no titles were considered. Only consideration given to popular dogs were and overall feeling in the coonhound world that they were the dogs to beat in a hunt. Such as Bone Collector, Bad Habit, Big Country and on and on.

All I was looking at is the pedigrees search for a pattern to the dogs relationships to one another.

You take say 5 top hounds that won a lot all over the country and in their pedigrees you see one female that was a superstar reproducer from a father/daughter cross. Then you have to think there is something to a cross like that. Then you see five different pedigrees with totally different dogs but the positioning of sires and dams the same. It gives you an idea where to plug in right dogs to get something better.

Like the cross that produced Bad Habit. If you tagged the dogs that were from powerful treeing lines and those from powerful running lines. Forget the names, forget the titles. Just look at the facts. Crossing those two lines worked. It has in many other top hounds also. Many people just don't break the overall characteristics down and see how the pedigrees are built and what works.

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DL NH
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So I have a question........and I'm no breeder. I've only raised 4 litters of pups in 43 years of owning hounds. So does anyone think it is or ever will be possible to consistently raise liters where the highest percentage of the litter make top hounds?

Personally I don't believe that will ever occur and actually hope it never does.
I've always felt if you could raise a litter where 60% of the litter made good solid hounds and 1 or perhaps 2 of the litter made exceptional hounds you ought to feel pretty good about the cross.

Then of course there are always those who seem to be able to screw up a born natural hound anyways. I'm sure we all know at least one person who has hounds that shouldn't have any!

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mike shannon
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Dont forget the trainer

That is also very important. Some can take a diamond in the rough, and make a diamond. While others can't even train it to drink water.

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wart
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Dogs

There are many variables when it comes to mating and matching dogs the best hunters and breeders rarely had more than 1 or 2 litters per year many of your so called breeders are nothing but puppy mill type that rarely have pups that would suit the hard to please

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Bruce m. Conkey
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.

I think this post is starting to go in a direction most go. In many directions that don't pertain to the subject. Which is fine and kind of like the litter of coon hound pups that are born. They go in several different directions other than being the quality pups they should be.

DL NH I agree with you. wart you are correct. I think the word puppy mill is harsh but I would say they deal in numbers. When you do that and have given a good effort at trying. You will get a few pups worth talking about and plenty to forget about. The few good ones earn you a good name and keep you moving forward.

Mike shannon perhaps the most important factor. Small breeders fall in love with their pups and keep them too long. Large breeders breed to many and let others deal with the results, waiting for the good one to turn up to give them a name. The trainers can take a pup and make a dog but they are quick to realize many don't make it and they don't waste their time on them. Either pass them along or the pup ends up in the bone pile. No one wants to hear that.

Just to clarify. Coon Dogs are my hobby/enjoyment. I like to know how things work. I looked at these pedigrees just to see if there was some link behind the good ones in the way they were bred. The way the mother, father, aunts, uncles, any relatives, or no relatives were POSITIONED in the pedigree. I didn't do it to breed for the future. I did it to see what happen in the past to get us to where we are today. To see what happened in the popular crosses and was there a link between them.

Here is how I think breeding should be done. You have a quality dog that has won their fair share and proven it should be looked at as breeding stock. You breed it or offer it at stud for others to breed to. Not with lies and a bunch of fancy myths. The dog should stand on two things. It's ability, proven in the woods/hunts. Its Pedigree. If bred then the pups start to speak for the dog. Then you have to fall back and look at the pattern in the pups pedigree to see what line of dogs bred to your dog reproduced the best pups and where they kin folk or not.

Here is where the wheels fall of. The man behind the dog that goes to the expense and work of offering there dog at stud. Usually isn't content with letting the dog speak for himself. They are not content with the honest results of the breedings. They start to try and manipulate the winnings of the pups. They spread false things about the pups. They talked so much about their stud dog the people are disappointed in them when it doesn't work out. An honest breeder should have no one disappointed in him as he just offered a product and did so honestly. If the pups are duds then the OWNER of the stud and the one who bred to him should share disappointment in the results. Honest men trying to do the right thing should never be condemned. But a mans ego is big and most can't admit failure. We all fail.
Any man that has had a Male dog at stud. If they are paying attention. In a short period of time start to see the bloodlines of females that cross the best on him.
Everyone just starting to climb the mountain wants and plans the line breeding for their hounds. Once you get about half way or more up that mountain. Most realize that too much of a good thing. Is really not a good thing.

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Here is kinda what Bruce was talking about. My macie female was out of a three pup litter out of my line bred rattler stud. All three pups titled easily. Macie was bred to bone which produced fly which was a grntch and I won 10 out of 12 cast in $$$ hunts with her. Babe who I have now is out of macie and royal rehab out of bad habit she is a grchntch was only hunted in 3 hunts with three first. Now if you go on hunt records both fly and babe just tree coons when for what ever reason other dogs in the cast didn’t in other words the other dogs were not in my opinion competition ready. Sometimes titles make a dog look better than it really is mine included.


Tar

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Old Post 01-16-2020 01:17 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22460

Bruce, you are right that certain lines cross better with certain lines. When you look back, you can see that. Once you identify them, you can cross sons/daughters out of them to each other.

There have been mother x father and daughter x father crosses that have worked extremely well. I wonder what the total #of such crosses that worked compared to the # that failed is?

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Old Post 01-16-2020 03:34 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

Patterning a pedigree could be a very useful tool for someone who will research it correctly, maybe following some sort of system like Bruce has implied on how he uses it...the walker breed is definitely a good breed to use this method because of all the options with so many well known dogs and pedigrees...

If I were to use a system of this type I would map it out and follow a system as I will list below...just a quick example off the top of my head...
If I were to see a family of dogs that produced 50 percent of really good hunting dogs and 20 percent of outstanding dogs...I would study the dogs and decide which dogs are the best at performing and whom I think has the best dogs close up in the pedigree on a particular dog...selecting that one dog is key...maybe that one dog will a a pup out of that one dog...either way that one dog will be the hub of the breeding program...but we will say it is the original dog from the pedigree...I would then buy littermate granddaughters to that dog...the dam to the granddaughters needs to be an above average hunting dog and also needs to be related to her sire...the best granddaughter gets bred back to the grand sire...the thing about these top hunting and champion dogs is that they are bred to many females...I wouldn’t worry about what everyone else is doing...but when another female that someone else owns that is related to the original sire is also well known for being an outstanding female and she gets bred to the original sire...and she has pups out of him I would buy several males off of that litter...I would then breed the best male from those pups to the original granddaughter that I decided was the best of the two sisters...now I have a half brother and a half sister and I can breed them to each other...and the pups produced from that litter I can breed the best female pup back to the great grand sire...there are several scenarios one can take but I believe we must create a plan and stick with it...we can not be changing directions...we must trust in our knowledge...there is greatness in this blood...we just need to pick the right pups...

In my opinion when a breeder is breeding many different females to his stud because he is a world champion then there will be many culls on account of him getting bred to females that more often than not have a stacked pedigree of not many good hunting dogs...

I am not a breeder but I like breeding my own dogs because I am hard to please...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 01-17-2020 02:58 AM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

Patterning a pedigree could be a very useful tool for someone who will research it correctly, maybe following some sort of system like Bruce has implied on how he uses it...the walker breed is definitely a good breed to use this method because of all the options with so many well known dogs and pedigrees...

If I were to use a system of this type I would map it out and follow a system as I will list below...just a quick example off the top of my head...
If I were to see a family of dogs that produced 50 percent of really good hunting dogs and 20 percent of outstanding dogs...I would study the dogs and decide which dogs are the best at performing and whom I think has the best dogs close up in the pedigree on a particular dog...selecting that one dog is key...maybe that one dog will a a pup out of that one dog...either way that one dog will be the hub of the breeding program...but we will say it is the original dog from the pedigree...I would then buy littermate granddaughters to that dog...the dam to the granddaughters needs to be an above average hunting dog and also needs to be related to her sire...the best granddaughter gets bred back to the grand sire...the thing about these top hunting and champion dogs is that they are bred to many females...I wouldn’t worry about what everyone else is doing...but when another female that someone else owns that is related to the original sire is also well known for being an outstanding female and she gets bred to the original sire...and she has pups out of him I would buy several males off of that litter...I would then breed the best male from those pups to the original granddaughter that I decided was the best of the two sisters...now I have a half brother and a half sister and I can breed them to each other...and the pups produced from that litter I can breed the best female pup back to the great grand sire...there are several scenarios one can take but I believe we must create a plan and stick with it...we can not be changing directions...we must trust in our knowledge...there is greatness in this blood...we just need to pick the right pups...

In my opinion when a breeder is breeding many different females to his stud because he is a world champion then there will be many culls on account of him getting bred to females that more often than not have a stacked pedigree of not many good hunting dogs...

I am not a breeder but I like breeding my own dogs because I am hard to please...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 01-17-2020 02:59 AM
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