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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 4242

We talk about Loaners and breeding them today.

I was reading a post on here about Stylish Jake semen offspring. One gentleman stated he had a male out of stylish jake and a female with old time breeding from Lipper.

This dog has some old time genetics. He stated the dog was a dead loaner. So the genetics for breeding loaners seem to have been around a while and not just something the newer generations came up with. I think in the old days they weren't described Loaners but Winners. The jealously I keep hearing about in the sport won't allow them to be called winners today. So the are called loaners to discredit them. lol

Just have fun with what I wrote and don't get all uptight about it. Dogs are Dogs and Houndmen are hard to find.
It's to cold to go outside so I have to do something. 66* now and going into the 50's tonight.

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Old Post 11-14-2019 08:54 PM
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novicane65
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1276

Re: We talk about Loaners and breeding them today.

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
I was reading a post on here about Stylish Jake semen offspring. One gentleman stated he had a male out of stylish jake and a female with old time breeding from Lipper.

This dog has some old time genetics. He stated the dog was a dead loaner. So the genetics for breeding loaners seem to have been around a while and not just something the newer generations came up with. I think in the old days they weren't described Loaners but Winners. The jealously I keep hearing about in the sport won't allow them to be called winners today. So the are called loaners to discredit them. lol

Just have fun with what I wrote and don't get all uptight about it. Dogs are Dogs and Houndmen are hard to find.
It's to cold to go outside so I have to do something. 66* now and going into the 50's tonight.



50į+ isn't cold, but I wasn't around back in the 80's or even the 90's with hounds. But I'd say you're right on the descriptions. Most people these days can't admitted if they got beat or "out dogged", they try n make themselves feel better by saying they got cheated. My partner was at the legacy hunt in Ohio over last weekend. I got a text at around 1 am say "Got Beat like a drum" but his female treed 5 coons that cast just came up short.

Now was this gentleman's dog a product of the old time breeding or the newer training techniques? Or a combination of all involved?

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Dave Richards
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Eric DePue

Wow! Treeing 5 coons and still getting beat, how many did the winner tree? Dave

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2ol2hunt
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In 70's I hunted with a lot of different hounds and never saw a dead loner but dogs would split sometimes. Hunted with several world champions and they were seldom alone. Cast were usually together unless a younger dog was trashing.

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2nd Mac
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quote:
Originally posted by 2ol2hunt
In 70's I hunted with a lot of different hounds and never saw a dead loner but dogs would split sometimes. Hunted with several world champions and they were seldom alone. Cast were usually together unless a younger dog was trashing.
x2

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Richard Lambert
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I don't know about the 70's, but in the 90's they were called "independent to a fault". Most hunters considered it a fault. A very few people hunted them and they didn't win very much.

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novicane65
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1276

Re: Eric DePue

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Wow! Treeing 5 coons and still getting beat, how many did the winner tree? Dave


5 or 6 I believe Dave. She's not a babblers so she gets beat on strike points usually. She can be tough to beat. Only thing I don't care for is her speed some nights. On those nights she doesn't move fast enough for my preference. But she's like her dad and can tree any type of coon in the woods.

2ol2hunt,
So you didn't see any independent dogs in the70's - 90's? Was there more dog power in the 70's than 80's and later? Or when did you hear about or see dogs being independent? I know its different times and era's but I believe there was independent dogs all along but they got culled. Because the majority of older hunters I've ever talked to about it have stated they wanted dogs to compete on the same track as a measuring stick, not 1 that would go opposite direction from the rest and get his own.

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2ol2hunt
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I can't remember any that wouldn't cover at all! Every dog that anyone said was a good to great dog would cover if they weren't struck in on their own track. Turn out dogs get all dogs off the tree unless there was some trash involved. That's what was expected and most every time that's what happened. Whether it was good or not so good that is just the way it was.

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Old Post 11-14-2019 11:46 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Here is a history lesson for all of the youngsters. Mr Conkey knows exactly what happened.
The loaners came about because so much tree was bred into dogs, they just treed up every tree in the woods. Since they were pack dogs, if one dog looked up a tree they all just locked down. Some say that it came to a head or maybe was just blamed on Rat Attack.
Some breeders (Barry Kiddy) had enough of this so they started developing and breeding dogs that were independant, accurate and would not tree with the others who were usually slick.
This took some time. It didn't happen in 5 or 10 years. These dogs have evolved into today's deep and alone dogs. It seems that when we try to change or "better" our dogs, we don't know where to stop. And if a certain style of dog starts winning, everyone jumps on board.

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Old Post 11-15-2019 12:07 AM
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wlewis323
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Registered: Feb 2019
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What would yíall say are some of the top bloodlnes or hounds from over time till present that got deep and dead loner? Always looked for this trait but itís hard to find only had one so far that was close to this and he was out of stylish rube.

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Reuben
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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 866

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Here is a history lesson for all of the youngsters. Mr Conkey knows exactly what happened.
The loaners came about because so much tree was bred into dogs, they just treed up every tree in the woods. Since they were pack dogs, if one dog looked up a tree they all just locked down. Some say that it came to a head or maybe was just blamed on Rat Attack.
Some breeders (Barry Kiddy) had enough of this so they started developing and breeding dogs that were independant, accurate and would not tree with the others who were usually slick.
This took some time. It didn't happen in 5 or 10 years. These dogs have evolved into today's deep and alone dogs. It seems that when we try to change or "better" our dogs, we don't know where to stop. And if a certain style of dog starts winning, everyone jumps on board.



Sounds like a perfect explanation...🧐😳

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Dave Richards
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Dogs

Breed for brains first and foremost that should make the rest of what we desire in a dog much easier to find. A smart dog is the key, every dog that I have ever seen that I called a top coon dog was uncanny smart. Dogs treeing up cornstalks or saplings that they can see there's no coon in are STUPID. STUPID dogs are never going to make anything special no matter the amount of hunting or who's doing the training. The smarter the dog the more folks will be saying that they are natural, little training required or needed. No different than humans, there is no substitute for brains. Ask anyone who has a really top notch coon dog how smart the dog is, I will bet they say it's one if the smartest dogs they have seen. Dave

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pamjohnson
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Good explanation but most are trained to be loners and that started about the 90's I think.

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high ridge
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Registered: May 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3046

In the early 90ís is when I started hunting independent dogs. I came from a part of the country that if you didnít have a dog that you could pull up to a creek and cut down the opposite direction that your buddy turned loose they would rib you hard the next day. I have always loved and independent dog. I call them Republican dogs lol

HERE IS MY QUESTION

Is the independent dog the way he is or is the dog independent because it is a coondog?

I have seen several dogs split tree all around dogs that where treed. Then, when you get to them the dog over to himself had the coon and the others slick.

Is that dog independent or just finishing the track that he had the ability to finish correctly?

Those type of independent dogs are born not made that way.

I have also had the opportunity to hunt with many of the biggest named dogs in the country both pleasure and competition. I FEEL NATURAL ABILITY IS WHAT MAKES THOSE DOGS INDEPENDENT ALONG WITH A HANDLER THAT DOES NOT PUT UP WITH ANY NONSENSE

I hear all the time that old so and so is man made. There is not 25 people running the circuit that has enough dog intelligence to man make a dog and when they do man make one that dog moves down the road at the right time and they continue to look for a dog with the ability to put itself in an independent situation.

95% will ruin more dogs trying to make independent animals than they can make.

Another key thing I have learned is man made will let you down when you most need it.

If you have a dog that strikes a track, takes it on out, and has the ability to locate the right tree, that dog will naturally show independence from the pack because of its ability. That style of dog is not needing the packs help and does not stand around waiting on it.

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Preacher Tom
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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 625

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Here is a history lesson for all of the youngsters. Mr Conkey knows exactly what happened.
The loaners came about because so much tree was bred into dogs, they just treed up every tree in the woods. Since they were pack dogs, if one dog looked up a tree they all just locked down. Some say that it came to a head or maybe was just blamed on Rat Attack.
Some breeders (Barry Kiddy) had enough of this so they started developing and breeding dogs that were independant, accurate and would not tree with the others who were usually slick.
This took some time. It didn't happen in 5 or 10 years. These dogs have evolved into today's deep and alone dogs. It seems that when we try to change or "better" our dogs, we don't know where to stop. And if a certain style of dog starts winning, everyone jumps on board.



Richard I think there is a lot of truth in what you said. The one and only reason I want an independent dog is so he won't back on a slick tree. Having hunted in the 60 and 70's I think we had some independent dogs but since we didn't have Garmin GPS we couldn't hunt them very well. Half of the nights we didn't know where they went. My brother had a hard hunting dog that could absolutely tree a coon but was so hard to hunt and keep up with. Would like to have him today.

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Dave Richards
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Billy Carter

It is my opinion that a true coon dog is in different to the other dogs, some call this being independent, I think indifferent is a better description. The smarter the dog the less that dog will be affected by what other dogs do. A smart dog knows exactly what THEY want to do and that's what they do. They are leaders and not followers, no me tooing! They know where to strike a coon track, they know what tree the coon is in, they just get wiser the more you hunt them, they learn from a mistake, they take correction and don't make that mistake again, once is usually all it takes. A smart dog can make a novice trainer or handler look good. As someone that knows from experience, a smart dog can teach a handler if the handler is SMART enough to learn. Dave

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Ghost14
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Independent is great as long as itís indifferent to whatís going on around it. The only dogs Iíve considered coon dogs were indifferent and treed coons regardless of where, what, or who was around. What most donít understand is even an independent dog will tree with other dogs when it finds a coon track occasionally. If a dog is passing coon tracks to be antisocial and deep and lonely then they are not a coon dog to me. I have seen them and raised them, these boys breeding that junk and promoting it are gonna regret it in about 15 years. I know all to well where breeding that jealousy driven social retardation leads. Hounds should strike, run, and in our case tree. They should do it whether alone or if 20 dogs are there. Skipping tracks to be a mile deep and alone is not a good hound. Ignoring dogs that are running a coon is not a good hound. These are major faults in any hunting hound but it wins and even gets promoted. The rules have created this monster and when you give people an inch they take a mile. All you had to do was train your hound to be honest and you could win. If he was fast off the snap, fast on track, and quick to locate accurately he was gonna win big. But thatís the hard way around the block. Itís much easier to not have to compete with dogs and not have trash temptations and minus points. Get one naturally or train one, makes no difference. The problem is men are not men anymore and hounds are becoming less like hounds. They donít want to compete and see who has the better hound, they want to tree one deep and run the clock out or ďplay defenseĒ! Biggest crock of bull Iíve ever seen. Iíve never been more embarrassed than when I read where these boys elect to keep dogs on the leash. Then they post on how competitive they are. Makes me puke!

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
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Hmmmmm wonder why those independent dogs they were breeding in the 90ís were also high end strike dogs ?



Ooooooo,ooooooo,ooooooo I know, i know lol.


Tar

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Josh Michaelis
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Re: Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Breed for brains first and foremost that should make the rest of what we desire in a dog much easier to find. A smart dog is the key, every dog that I have ever seen that I called a top coon dog was uncanny smart. Dogs treeing up cornstalks or saplings that they can see there's no coon in are STUPID. STUPID dogs are never going to make anything special no matter the amount of hunting or who's doing the training. The smarter the dog the more folks will be saying that they are natural, little training required or needed. No different than humans, there is no substitute for brains. Ask anyone who has a really top notch coon dog how smart the dog is, I will bet they say it's one if the smartest dogs they have seen. Dave


Brains are overrated.

I'm getting to the point that I want one that is not quite so aware of his surroundings. Smart dogs are less consistent with multiple handlers. Remember mistakes the handler made for entirely too long, and usually get weirder the more they are hauled.

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Josh Michaelis
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And independent dogs are not dead loners.

Independent dogs will be second sometimes, and get covered without being bothered.

Dead loners are social retards.

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yadkintar
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quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
And independent dogs are not dead loners.

Independent dogs will be second sometimes, and get covered without being bothered.

Dead loners are social retards.




So what your saying is you pay the price for covering a dead loner ?


Tar

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Posts: 4242

.

Not going to hang any names on these dogs like "independent" "hard hunters" or anything like that. I will let you guys give the descriptions.

I hunted regularly against Hardwood Dan, Adios Eagle and many other pretty good hounds in the late 80's and early 90's.

Eagle might have been the hardest hunting dog I ever saw. Dan was right there with him. They had another gear that most of our pack dogs did not have. They had the extra gear and they had the coon.
I saw a group of pack hounds get demolished one night in a NKC world hunt cast by Randall Coleman and Pee Dee River Casey. He did it the same way Dan and Eagle did it. By hunting hard and having coon. The Casey dog did not need to go as far to do it as I had saw Dan and Eagle go. He treed coon all around us while the pack just talked one another into treeing empty trees.

Kind of slide into another conversation after saying that. When the tree power started to emerge in the 90's. I think most hunters missed the boat on ONE THING. Hunting these tree minded dogs together caused a lot of the slick treeing problems. How many of you started or hunted young dogs together and they would be out hunting and one would bark and the other one would bark right behind it and they treed right there. All these young dogs were doing it running through the woods checking trees to bark up. Starting them together only reinforced them to just come treed without a coon. When I saw that happening I knew we were in trouble and that was late 80's and early 90's. That is probably caused the push to hunt dogs alone as others saw it also. That is also was drove me to have a track dog first that would tree. Not a dog totally looking for a tree that couldn't run a track.

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yadkinriver
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Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1216

I try to avoid these discussions but I've gotta say in thin coons a dead loner can bite you in the butt. Young man I know bought a pup off of some good dogs that were raised in thin coon and would honor when they had nothing going on. Well this young man followed T Balls advise to start your pup by itself and not hunt it with other dogs. It worked. Had himself a dead loner. Then he wanted to show us what he'd done and wasn't happy when our dogs were together and his was off somewhere on her own so he sold her to another friend of mine. She was a coondog so he put her in a big hunt. Got down to the end of the hunt and just two dogs left and he was leading by 200 points. on release one went down the creek and the other up the creek. Time running down and other dog struck and treed and all my buddies dog had to do was cover but no time ran out and buddy lost by 25. So it may be alright in thick coons but doesn't work often enough in this part of the country. Personally give me a superior trak dog that will cover if nothing going on that has been hunted by itself enough to be confident in itself.

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Josh Michaelis
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quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
So what your saying is you pay the price for covering a dead loner ?


Tar



If that is what I had wanted to type I'd have just typed it.

I said independent dogs are not bothered by getting covered.

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yadkintar
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I guess I misunderstood. Must be all the cover late get ate tee shirts I been seeing. Josh we both know why the high end strike dog and deep and alone dog was built. The leash lock rule and it being dang near impossible to minus a ( coon treeing ) babbler.


Because of big purses on the line they work every angle.


Tar

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