UKC Forums - “Natural” vs “Man Made” Coondog

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yadkintar
Banned

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:
Originally posted by ole hoss
How would one go about making one bark, I’ve shut a few up in my time but never been able to make one bark

Ameture lol.

Tar

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07-03-2019 07:15 PM

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1904

Re: I had the honor--

quote:
Originally posted by OLD TIMER
of meeting Lou Holtz when he was coaching the MN Gophers and he said

"You can Coach someone with natural talent, but you can't teach it."

I agree...

As a coach or handler we have to learn to read the player or the dog...and we coach according to what we believe is best at that moment and also for the overall playing time for the player and hunting time for the dog...want to and desire goes a long ways for all involved including the coach...there is no doubt Joe Gibbs is a great coach...

Some have said practice makes perfect...other say perfect practice makes perfect...

I remember years ago when the Chicago Bears were having a bad season and before the had their winning streak...I was flipping through the channels and they were playing another team and they were losing by quite a bit and there was about 2 minutes left in the game...no way the Bears could win...but I saw something I will never forget...That was the first time I saw him...Walter Payton was running back and he was carrying the ball...he was giving all he had on each play...he was playing like he was in the Super Bowl and behind 2 points and he as fighting to get in good field goal range or better yet score a touchdown...IMO he was one of the greatest football players of all time...and I also believe he was one of the greatest human beings that lived...I say this because he had a liver disease and needed a liver...if he didn’t get one soon he surely would die soon...he was on the waiting list to get one...the interviewer on the TV said...Walter, you are famous...have plenty of money...you can get a liver transplant now...you can go to the font of the line...with tears in his eye he replied...everyone else on the waiting list is just as important as I am... I will wait my turn...a few months later he passed away...

Natural born ability is the was to go...natural born enthusiasm and desire goes hand in hand...a great coach sees it and takes it to a higher level...the coach has the same natural abilities for coaching...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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07-03-2019 08:03 PM

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1904

Re: I had the honor--

quote:
Originally posted by OLD TIMER
of meeting Lou Holtz when he was coaching the MN Gophers and he said

"You can Coach someone with natural talent, but you can't teach it."

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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07-03-2019 08:03 PM

yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Anybody that don’t know the difference in a good honest natural coon treeing dog and a man made dog ain’t been out much.

Tar

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07-04-2019 01:05 AM

CHEWBACH
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2007
Location: monroeville OH
Posts: 2685

with you Tar! or those folks just hasn't walked behind a natural yet ! they just thank they have. walk behind one you will realize how its suppose to be done.

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07-04-2019 01:46 AM

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SEMO
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 281

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Let me refrase that they teach them to do things that are not natural traits. Like bumping them past coons with the E collar so they only get the deep ones. Teaching to rattle non stop never shutting up to go get that deep coon. Cmon Cory you know what I am talken bout lol.

Tar

How do you teach one to rattle non stop, I can stop or slow it down if he naturally does it but if hes a last strike dog I've never figured how to
make him bark non stop.

The closest I ever saw was Ole Elvis Attack doing his tricks I believe he would speak, shake hands and play dead.

Please tell me how you teach one to Babble?

Thanks

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07-06-2019 03:55 AM

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SEMO
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 281

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Let me refrase that they teach them to do things that are not natural traits. Like bumping them past coons with the E collar so they only get the deep ones. Teaching to rattle non stop never shutting up to go get that deep coon. Cmon Cory you know what I am talken bout lol.

Tar

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07-06-2019 03:55 AM

Redneck Mafia
UKC Moderator

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5823

quote:
Originally posted by SEMO
How do you teach one to rattle non stop, I can stop or slow it down if he naturally does it but if hes a last strike dog I've never figured how to
make him bark non stop.

The closest I ever saw was Ole Elvis Attack doing his tricks I believe he would speak, shake hands and play dead.

Please tell me how you teach one to Babble?

Thanks

There are enough of them that do it no one else needs to try and teach.

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07-06-2019 04:09 AM

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DL NH
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Registered: Jan 2016
Location:
Posts: 587

There's something else that the great ones have besides talent and that is guts and grit! Seen a few very talented hounds that lacked in the guts and grit dept. get showed up by hounds that had the extra fire it took to finish the job.

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07-06-2019 05:30 AM

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yadkintar
Banned

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:
Originally posted by SEMO
How do you teach one to rattle non stop, I can stop or slow it down if he naturally does it but if hes a last strike dog I've never figured how to
make him bark non stop.

The closest I ever saw was Ole Elvis Attack doing his tricks I believe he would speak, shake hands and play dead.

Please tell me how you teach one to Babble?

Thanks

Ole hoss said he made um shut up ! Well then just do the opposite! Hold um back pat their sides out with the genetics we got today plus give them the go go juice and vvvvvvvwalah you got a babbler.

Tar

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07-06-2019 07:46 AM

Team Mafia 2
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2018
Location:
Posts: 160

quote:
Originally posted by SEMO
How do you teach one to rattle non stop, I can stop or slow it down if he naturally does it but if hes a last strike dog I've never figured how to
make him bark non stop.

The closest I ever saw was Ole Elvis Attack doing his tricks I believe he would speak, shake hands and play dead.

Please tell me how you teach one to Babble?

Thanks

I can make em babble I can make em silent I can also make a dog that’s getting ran off of trees mean as a snake. You just have to get creative. The only thing I don’t like to do is make a covering type dog a loaner all you’ll end up with is a jealous tree leaving POS.

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07-07-2019 03:27 AM

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thomasg
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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: batsville ark
Posts: 1110

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
A man made dog has to be smart to be trainable. They also have to be eager to please their master. A lot of those naturals are crazy and won't pay a bit of attention to their handler. A lot of those man made dogs are not counterfeits. An intelligent, eager to please, trainable dog in the right hands can be molded into a dog that is hard to beat.

back in the 80s i had a man made coon treeing machine ,fur was at a all time high ,hounds even pups were selling for more than a 15 year old kid could afford . so i used the only dog that i had to work with at the time , a full blooded border collie , put 54 hides in the freezer with him his first season in 2 weeks , ralph hated coon and was eager to please his master , it was a job skinning and carrying the fur he put up ,

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07-08-2019 01:34 AM

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yadkintar
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Posts: 10790

Dogs today are one dimensional ( man made ) excel at their kind of coon. Back in the day dogs took them as they came to them not culling tracks if the coons were not down they treed them layup those traits have been bred out.

Tar

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07-08-2019 02:50 PM

Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 340

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Dogs today are one dimensional ( man made ) excel at their kind of coon. Back in the day dogs took them as they came to them not culling tracks if the coons were not down they treed them layup those traits have been bred out.

Tar

Tar , I know it’s a personal preference. You used to hear the phrase meat dog an competition dog. The old folks would use that phrase quite often. They didn’t like the competition kind. We used to walk hunt our dogs . Cast them an they would hunt out 5 to 6 hundred yards an make a circle an come back. Go the other direction an do the same thing. They didn’t strick nothing we would walk on. Dogs hunted with you . Kinda got away from that. Now we want to cast them , sit on tailgate an let them go as far as need be. Again, it’s all in what a man wants. Kinda believe now a dog learns to just run until it finds a easy coon to tree. We have took away the things that make a dog.

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07-08-2019 03:49 PM

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yadkintar
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I still send mine from the tailgate but they don’t cull their tracks they get treed I ain’t in no hurry to get to them. I think people that hurry to trees cause a dog to commit on trees they normally wouldn’t.

But a dog does have to hustle here to strike a coon sometimes.

Tar

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07-08-2019 05:08 PM

Larry Atherton
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6539

quote:
Originally posted by SEMO
How do you teach one to rattle non stop, I can stop or slow it down if he naturally does it but if hes a last strike dog I've never figured how to
make him bark non stop.

The closest I ever saw was Ole Elvis Attack doing his tricks I believe he would speak, shake hands and play dead.

Please tell me how you teach one to Babble?

Thanks

It is easy. I have seen it in both beagles and coon hounds. Hunt them as young puppies with their mother. Make sure they can't keep up with her. Not only will they bark, they will learn to run dogs. By that I mean literally track the other dogs.

I have known people who actually did the above to achieve a first strike dog. They actually did it over many generations.

PS I in no way condone that behavior.

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07-08-2019 07:46 PM

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DL NH
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Is it any wonder the gene pools get watered down with junk? No true hound man or woman would knowingly breed junk like that. No matter what type of hunting dog you can think of, other than possibly bear or hog dogs, before it receives any degree period ought to have to prove it can satisfactorily produce game in the WILD SOLO!

Actually it might not be a bad idea if they had to prove that before they could be entered into competition hunts where points towards a degree are awarded.

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07-09-2019 02:41 AM

Mike Van Dusen
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Location: Northwest Indiana
Posts: 1535

I like a pup to know a lot when they start,you can tell rite from the start if they have" it ".... or not.

Ray Charles can see the "it factor",them are the ones I am lookin for...and I have never seen a dumb one have the "it ".

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07-10-2019 12:34 AM

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DL NH
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"It" factor......

Please share more about the "It" factor. I've been hunting hounds for a long time and still haven't learned it all, so please give some specifics. Sure others would benefit as well.

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07-10-2019 02:44 AM

2ol2hunt
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The short answer is the "it factor" is intelligence or coon sense.

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07-10-2019 03:22 AM

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DL NH
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Guess my short answer would be it's all in the inheritance.........of which intelligence plays an important roll.

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07-10-2019 03:32 AM

Redneck Mafia
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Re: "It" factor......

quote:
Originally posted by DL NH
Please share more about the "It" factor. I've been hunting hounds for a long time and still haven't learned it all, so please give some specifics. Sure others would benefit as well.

Most wouldn't recognize it if it snuck up and bit them they give up on pups full of fire or ruin them with a shocker at a young age.

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07-10-2019 04:19 AM

DL NH
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Posts: 587

Re: Re: "It" factor......

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Most wouldn't recognize it if it snuck up and bit them they give up on pups full of fire or ruin them with a shocker at a young age.

Thank you. In a day and age where instant gratification is demanded more and more it can be easily forgotten that our hounds are not programmable machines............and thankfully so! Else the hope and mystique of what the next one will be would be removed completely!

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07-10-2019 07:25 AM

Richard Lambert
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I had a dog with "coon sense" once. When you turned him loose he went looking for a coon. He seemed to just know where they were. Up North in thick coon and patch woods, he would just go from one tree to the next and tree every coon in the woods. My buddies called him the Census Taker. I just called him Mongo Red.

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07-10-2019 01:25 PM

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2ol2hunt
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Location: north ala.
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They seem to know where the food source is , where the closest water is and how the Coons are moving and ECT.ect.even in unfamiliar territory....... THEY JUST KNOW!!! And these kind of dogs are always extremely accurate!!

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07-10-2019 02:42 PM

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