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Lately I've read several ads for females for sale that aren't coon dogs but "has a great bloodline, would make a good brood female". But I don't think I've ever seen an ad on a male dog that wasn't much of a coon dog but had good bloodlines but would make a good stud dog. Why would we think one had any better chance of reproducing than the other?

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Tom Wood

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🤣 Tom you and Tar been hanging out again 🤣🤣😂

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Lol. Some folks are just trying to sell a female that's either not trained or could not be trained and just hoping the pedigree will sell the dog. ( Not me). I would never want to raise pups from a dog male or female that was not a decent coon dog. I know that we just get the bloodlines and not what the male or female is as a coon dog, but I want to know that the mom and dad were decent coon dogs and not just dogs with a decent pedigree. Some dogs will get the genes that NO ONE wants. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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The best hunter is not always the best reproducer. You can always find a male stud that is a great reproducer . Females can only produce so many pups , even if you do bred them every chance you get. Now with the frozen semen thrown into the equation , you will need an even lower number of great stud dogs. The great females are harder to find. By the time you find out from her pups what a great reproducer she is, she already has used up half of her lifetime. Therefore I say the great females are more valuable.

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I have my best hound now. Cricket out of Moonlight/Outlaw Mac by Feldmans Roxie,

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Before I post this I know I’m going to get run off the board. So here goes anyway. I myself like most people like to know that the pup I’m buying or raising comes from parents that are proven but, why does it matter. The genetics and the traits are the same and there not changing when the bitch gets a hunt title . I’m no geneticist but the genes are the genes title or no title. Other than making the papers look better and the pups in this case possibly sell better. Look at thouroghbreds or any race horses for that matter. The majority of the mares are never ran on a track. Heck the majority aren’t even broke to ride. So let the games begin.

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to know what the family (litter mates) did as it is to breed or buy a pup from a "wonder dog" that came from a litter of duds.

I'm with you Johnny, it's only a piece of paper that a human scored, a human printed and the hound doesn't know anything about.

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OLD TIMER

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How many of you seen dogs come from males and females that never stepped a foot in the woods but there pups givin the chance came out to be good dogs

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she is treed

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quote:

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Originally posted by delta nightlife
How many of you seen dogs come from males and females that never stepped a foot in the woods but there pups givin the chance came out to be good dogs

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Eric DePue
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Well guys I tried earlier to delete this post but it says I can't because it is someone else post??? Was afraid it might get contentious but doesn't look like it has. I would like to know how many females that had a chance to hunt and just weren't much good still produced really nice pups.

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Tom Wood

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If you base your breeding on titles you will fail.

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I can list several well below avg females that produced, and I mean good litters, just not 1 or 2 dogs. And I'm talking produced pups that are very well known.

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Most everyone breeding registered walkers and those walkers will throw walker colored pups at least 99 percent of the time...Same with Redbones and Black and Tans...

Why is that? Because it is part of their standards and it is visual...You breed one off colored dog and they can go on for a few generations of off colored offspring...do it again every few years and the problems get worse...

I see breeding dogs in the same way...breed a sorry dog because it has great papers...do that a few times and you will be calling those that maintain a great breeding standard and program liars when they say they are producing 80 or 90 percent good hunting dogs...I think these folks will keep their mouths shut for good reasons...


About breeding...the standards do not give the hunting details nor do they require passing a standard hunting test before breeding...

And that is why the discussions on many forums including this one talks about the high cull rates...

At one time after about 15 years of hit and miss I started a breeding program...it didn’t take long because I started with good dogs...I was producing a high percentage of really good dogs...and I did it for 20 years...7 and 8 generations including repeat breedings...

Every dog bred was a good dog from each generation and the best were bred quite a bit more...and their parents were verified to be as good...it cost money, work and time...I had the money and the time, I worked 12 hour rotating shifts...the wife worked and the kids were in school and I was constantly messing with pups and hunting...

The hunting traits are visual...we should treat them as if we were breeding for color and as a standard requirement...

For me, this time around it is more relaxed, commitments, and other circumstances interfere...

The younger guys in the game need to maintain a high standard...we owe it to the dogs...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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I agree 100 percent, I am not a breeder, but know some excellent Breeders. Those who say the genetics are there regardless of the dogs ability are only looking at pedigree and WHAT should be there, oftentimes it's not there or the dog did not get the genes we desire. Yes, it's possible that a dog can carry the desired genes even though they are not a good dog, but why take the chance on an unknown producer especially if the dog is no good. There are many known dogs of the ability we desire, why breed a dog of inferior ability hoping to get traits we desire. Does it happen with success? Yes, but not very often, I adhere to the principle of breeding the best to the best, not breeding inferior hounds on the HOPE of getting something good. I am not talking titles on dogs, but performance in the woods, is the dog a coon dog or whatever game you hunt kind of dog. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Last edited by Dave Richards on 10-10-2020 at 11:42 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
I agree 100 percent, I am not a breeder, but know some excellent Breeders. Those who say the genetics are there regardless of the dogs ability are only looking at pedigree and WHAT should be there, oftentimes it's not there or the dog did not get the genes we desire. Yes, it's possible that a dog can carry the desired genes even though they are not a good dog, but why take the chance on an unknown producer especially if the dog is no good. There are many known dogs of the ability we desire, why breed a dog of inferior ability hoping to get traits we desire. Does it happen with success? Yes, but not very often, I adhere to the principle of breeding the best to the best, not breeding inferior hounds on the HOPE of getting something good. I am not talking titles on dogs, but performance in the woods, is the dog a coon dog or whatever game you hunt kind of dog. Dave

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I agree in concept with what you are saying, the issue to me is if the dog is not a proven coon dog or proven on your desired game, you really don't know the traits the dogs has, you might get a desired trait or the dog may have undesired traits, the only way to really know is to see how the dog performs on the desired game. It's a crapshoot breeding best to best, how much more will a unknown cross be in producing what traits you desire. The argument that you only get the genetics us certainly true, BUT I want to at least see that the dog/s have the traits I desire and the only way to do so is judging the dogs for what they ACTUALLY do on the desired game. You do not know if a untrained or inferior dog even has the genetic traits you desire, they could, but most likely do not or they would not be inferior or less than what you want in a dog. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Can someone explain to me why when I started a thread I cannot delete it. I really don't care on this particular thread but I thought the original poster could delete a thread they started. Guess it just shows I don't know how this deal works.

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Tom Wood

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I know horses pretty good and racking horses very good, we breed for natural gait, but don't always get what we want. The odds go way up when you breed 2 natural gait producers in getting a foal that racks naturally. I would not breed a unproven horse expecting to get a natural racking foal, even though you might just get one that racks. You have to show that your horses are natural gated or rack before getting them permanently registered in the Rocky Mountain breed, it's just not looking at a pedigree and assuming all foals will rack naturally or that the genetics will always produce a natural racking foal. The tighter the requirements the better the breed will be for the desired traits. The same principle can be used for coon dogs or other game dogs and the breed would be better in the long run. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
I know horses pretty good and racking horses very good, we breed for natural gait, but don't always get what we want. The odds go way up when you breed 2 natural gait producers in getting a foal that racks naturally. I would not breed a unproven horse expecting to get a natural racking foal, even though you might just get one that racks. You have to show that your horses are natural gated or rack before getting them permanently registered in the Rocky Mountain breed, it's just not looking at a pedigree and assuming all foals will rack naturally or that the genetics will always produce a natural racking foal. The tighter the requirements the better the breed will be for the desired traits. The same principle can be used for coon dogs or other game dogs and the breed would be better in the long run. Dave

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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seems like there are too many environmental factors that can keep a dog from making it for there to be a real answer... but, if you have 2 female pups born to the same litter. One makes a coondog and the other does not...if both females were to be bred to the same stud, wouldnt both litters of pups have the exact same genetics and neither litter should have any genetic advantage over the other?

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quote:

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Originally posted by pbhoward10
seems like there are too many environmental factors that can keep a dog from making it for there to be a real answer... but, if you have 2 female pups born to the same litter. One makes a coondog and the other does not...if both females were to be bred to the same stud, wouldnt both litters of pups have the exact same genetics and neither litter should have any genetic advantage over the other?

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Not true that they have the same traits or makeup, one could have gotten certain genes that the other did not get. Look at humans with the same parents the children are almost completely different. Some kids get certain traits while the others get completely different traits. We are not getting the same exact genetic traits, everyone is different, we only share the same DNA. Genetics is very complicated to say the least, you have heard this before regarding a person, " he takes back after his grandfather, or she takes back after her grandmother or something similiar". All true statements, some traits seem to skip a generation and show up in the next generation. I believe this is true in animals, I have seen things show up in the grandpups that the parents did not show. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Dave...I agree...

So that is why we select dogs that possess certain traits...the more generations of selecting for those traits the higher percentage of offspring produced with similar traits...

I guess we can call it concentrating on the traits we want...it won’t be 100 percent but we can strive towards that goal...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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You are so correct in selecting for the traits we desire we are more able to produce the same in future generations. Breeding strictly by pedigree does not guarantee the desired traits if the parents do not possess these traits. Even then you are not going to always get the desired traits as some are recessive and will only show up if both parents have that recessive gene. That explains why some pups in the litter get a certain trait and others do not, they have to get the one gene from the mother and the same gene from the father. Often they get one but not the other and the trait is suppressed, it will not show. Breeding a dog that's subpar could in fact pass on a recessive gene and if the other parent had that trait as dominant the offspring would indeed have that trait. Personally, I would not risk the chance of breeding any animal that did not show the trait I desired. There are plenty of animals that have the traits we desire to breed to without taking a gamble. Even the best breeding may only produce a very few with the desired traits due to the recessive dominant gene pairing. We can only strive to breed selective and cull until we make the desired traits dominant or pure. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Now throw in the mutation aspect and we cloud up the waters even more. Sometimes a mutation comes along that produces some excellent trait that is highly desired, but can not be duplicated easily or not at all. I suspect that occurs in a select few animals that exhibit unnatural ability in our eyes, but is never reproduced by that animal.Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. If you have a 3 generation pedigree with one unproven dog in there, it may pop up at anytime regardless of genetics. It's hard enough to get a good litter without adding unproven dogs into the equation. Wouldn't we rather look back into a pedigree and say, " I've hunted with all those fine hounds and they're capable hounds to carry on" instead of looking back and saying "that dog was never proven and some bad unwanted traits may pop up." I want to stack the deck in my favor as much as possible when I make a cross. I'm not saying that said dog couldn't or wouldn't reproduce good dogs but why take the chance. I'm not in this sport to make money, I'm in it to breed better quality coon hounds. If anyone wants to breed to unproven hounds, have at it but I want to better my chances with every cross, JMO.

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