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deschmidt27
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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

Rules ? for Trevor

So the "stationary" was applied during the final four and that got me thinking about when and why a handler may not want to call a dog treed, and the intent of the rule.

Obviously if the dog isn't "right" and may move on, you won't want to call him treed, and that's presumably appropriate, and the 5 wouldn't get you. But lets say you know how your dog sounds on a opossum or slick, and don't want to call him, that's what the rule was intended to prevent... someone not wanting to take minus their dog deserves.

But what about minus the dog doesn't deserve? Back to that first scenario... the dog's not right and can't settle on a tree. You should be allowed to not tree them, until their sure, right? But the rule, unlike the tree rule, doesn't clarify what it means when the dogs "not right" like for example, how often must they bark???

It reads...

(k) If handler fails to declare treed a dog obviously treeing (Judge’s decision) for a period of five minutes. Dog may be declared treed while five is running but not after the five has expired. Judge must verify dog to be at a tree before it can be scratched. If the cast is in the process of shining a separate tree time shall be canceled or not be applied to another dog.

Does the dog need to bark continuously? How do you define that? If the dog barks, but is quiet for two minutes, can the judge keep the five going? Can a judge talk you into, or coerce you into treeing a dog that would likely be minused for the two catching him, because he can't make up his mind and is hitting a tree, checking it, coming back etc. etc. You would not tree him, because you know he hasn't settled in on a tree, and the two might get him, but then basically be forced to do so by the judge invoking the "stationary" that doesn't have that same 2 minute requirement. It seems to me that the "judges" discretion should be broke by silence on the presumed tree.

The way it's written, if a dog barks a few times, the judge starts the five, and that dog only barks one or two more times, the "five" could still get him.

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grntinokla
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: coleman,ok
Posts: 124

Stationary

Just called about this very thing.Very unsatisfied with the answer we got.This needs to be addressed and clarified in the rules.

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deschmidt27
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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

Re: Stationary

quote:
Originally posted by grntinokla
Just called about this very thing.Very unsatisfied with the answer we got.This needs to be addressed and clarified in the rules.


Like many of the “honor rules” it requires honesty and rational thought, but as we know, that’s sometimes missing out in the woods. This one seems overly open to interpretation.

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tpettit
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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: greencastle, in
Posts: 150

You guys need to think of the stationary just as a treed dog. A judge should only start the stationary rule on a dog obviously treeing but not being called. Therefore if the dog shuts up, the 2 min rule is working. If he barks, the stationary continues and if he doesn't bark for 2 min, the stationary is broke. Maybe allen or trevor will give you the official answer but that's how I do it.

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deschmidt27
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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by tpettit
You guys need to think of the stationary just as a treed dog. A judge should only start the stationary rule on a dog obviously treeing but not being called. Therefore if the dog shuts up, the 2 min rule is working. If he barks, the stationary continues and if he doesn't bark for 2 min, the stationary is broke. Maybe allen or trevor will give you the official answer but that's how I do it.


That’s how I would do it, as well. But that’s not what it says, and all too many get what it does say, wrong, much less when it’s open to a lot of interpretation!

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grntinokla
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: coleman,ok
Posts: 124

Stationary

That is the way we thought too,but that is not the answer we got.

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jawscardodger
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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 1010

My ? is if you but the 2 mins on the dog 4 mins into the stationary do you give him an extra min ?

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grntinokla
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: coleman,ok
Posts: 124

Not according to the answer we got.We were told once the 5 is up the 5 is up.If the dog barks after the 5 is up but before the 2,which is nowhere in the rule,the only option is to go see if the dog is treed and scratch if he is.

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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But if the dog shuts up, you can't tree him until he barks again. If he isn't barking, you can't go in to him. If he isn't barking or he is shutting up, then he isn't "obviously treed".

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deschmidt27
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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
But if the dog shuts up, you can't tree him until he barks again. If he isn't barking, you can't go in to him. If he isn't barking or he is shutting up, then he isn't "obviously treed".


I totally agree, but according to the rule, that doesn't mean the 5 is not running, and can "catch" him if he starts barking again at the end of it.

The onset of all this technology means we know more than ever, about what our dogs are doing every single second! And so I imagine, I'm not the only one from time to time to see my dog "checking trees" without barking. Maybe even hitting on one, then shutting up and milling around. etc. etc. All of this would mean we know enough to not tree that dog based on what we're hearing and what we are now seeing. But if the dog starts hitting on a tree, and the judge doesn't know any better, he could start the 5. Now I think we all agree that if the dog stops barking, certainly for 2 minutes, he/she should stop the 5, but the rule doesn't say they need to do that! Meaning the five could be running, the dog could be not treeing, but then barks again near the end and you might be compelled to tree them. But if you do, you are equally at risk of getting minused for what will then be an official 2, or minused for moving.

My point is this... why not add the 2 minute clarification to this rule, and be done with it?

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grntinokla
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: coleman,ok
Posts: 124

Pretty simple fix to a very vague rule in my opinion.

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shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3370

If the handler declares him treed and two minutes gets him, he is no longer treed. Why would it be any different when the judge says he's treed?

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Adam Wingler
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1529

it was addressed in the advisor looks like back in 19...not sure if it has been addressed since...but here ya go:

Stationary Rule. A Refresher Course.
Back in the day we struggled with the cumbersome interpretation of how to handle the situations where dogs were treeing
and the handlers had no intentions of declaring them treed.
Rule 6(q) is a basic and necessary requirement in accurately
scoring hounds for their work on a nite hunt cast. Although
this rule has been in effect for some time now, we do get complaints that some judges tend to abuse Rule 6(o) and want to
apply it too soon or might apply it even if they think the dog(s)
could very well be treed in a hole or a place other than on a
tree. Simply put, a judge should not apply Rule 6(o) in situations where they think the dog(s) are treed somewhere other
than on a tree.
Here is a little refresher course on Rule 6(o). The rule reads
as follows:
6. Dogs Will be Scratched
(o) {if a handler fails to declare treed a dog obviously treeing
(Judge’s decision) for a period of five minutes. Dog may be
declared treed while the five is running but not after the five
has expired. Judge must verify dog to be at a tree before it
can be scratched.}
Let’s break it down into its most basic components. First,
the dog must obviously be treeing. That doesn’t mean tapping
trees or trying to settle. The right to tree a dog should rest
with the handler until it becomes obvious that the handler has
no intention of treeing a dog that is treeing solid. This is the
Judge’s decision.
Once 6(o) is applied, the dog in question must tree for five
minutes. Judge this as you would if the dog had been declared
treed.
• If you hear the dog bark off the tree, then the five is broken.
• If two minutes gets him, the five is broken.
• If another dog in the cast comes in and is declared treed, the
five is broken.
No penalty is assessed. The application of 6(o) is simply ended in each of the situations described above. At any time while
the five is running in accordance with 6(q), a handler may elect
to declare the dog treed. If the dog is declared treed, 6(o) is
ended and you would start a new five minutes on the dog just
as you would any time a dog is declared treed. In the event
where another dog in the cast is declared treed on that same
tree, 6(o) would also be ended. Start the five on the dog that
was declared treed and normal tree rules are applied.
Okay, let’s say a handler still refuses to tree the dog, and the
five minutes in accordance with 6(o) is running. When the five
is up, the cast will proceed to that tree. If, on the way in to the
tree, the handler asks to declare the dog treed and the five is
up, that request must be denied. The dog cannot be declared
treed (at that particular tree) after the five minutes of 6(o) has
expired. Also, the dog must be seen on a tree before it can be
scratched. Not in a hole, bulldoze pile, old barn, or any other
place of refuge. The thought process here is that sometimes
those tree barks may sound different enough to the handler of
the dog that they know the dog is not “right”. Someone who
does not know the dog may assume the dog is treed solid,
when the truth may be he is not on a tree at all. That’s why the
dog must be seen on a tree. When you get in there and the dog
is on a tree, then the dog is scratched. If you arrive to find the
dog trailing around or on a fence or something, back on out
and let the dog work. There would be no penalty. If the dog is
in a hole or place of refuge, the dog may be handled without
being declared treed in accordance with Rule 3(b).
It’s the handler’s responsibility to tell the Judge when the
dog strikes and when the dog trees. Competition events are
about scoring dogs, and that means the good, bad and indifferent. Any opportunity to cut down on the number of “games”
being played in between should be pursued. Rule 6(o) is one of
those opportunities.

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deschmidt27
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

Thanks Adam... that certainly makes sense! It's odd that that is not what grntinokla was told when he enquired.

I also get that there's only so much room on the back of the card, and so you can't apply every explanation and clarification there, as you can in the advisor. But... "subject to 2 minute rule" would be a nice add!

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grntinokla
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: coleman,ok
Posts: 124

Again,it would be pretty simple to just write that in and judge it like any other tree call.I think that would probably be most people's assumption that if you start a 2 at 4 minutes into the stationary you would be allowed to tree the dog on his next bark,but that isn't allowed with the stationary if the dog barks after the 5 but before the 2.

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Adam Wingler
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1529

Grntinokla, I’m assuming this situation happened to you in some sort in a recent hunt? If ya will... Explain...in detail...I’m curious. Thanks

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erlandcooner
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Registered: Dec 2012
Location:
Posts: 54

Stationary

I've read through these questions and answers, and I emailed Allen this past week, and gave him this scenario!
If a dog is treeing, and the judge declares the 5 min. Stationary is running, at 4min. The dog stops treeing, and the judge declares the 2min rule is working, the 5min. Expires and during the last min. Of the 2 dog barks treed again, you do not have the option to tree that dog, judge will go see if dog is indeed treeing, and if it is you will be scratched

Allen's response to my scenario and I will keep the Email because this rule could use some addressing. I'm not complaining, but it sure seems to me if a person can get scratched because a judge can't take a tree call for a min. If the dog isn't barking, then they should have the opportunity on the next bark to tree, to save from being scratched..

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grntinokla
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: coleman,ok
Posts: 124

Adam,no it did not happen to me.It was more like what caused David to ask this to start with,but when we couldn't find the rule is when we got with Allen.Would rather have it clarified here than have it happen in the woods and have one of those "they cheated me " moments in the woods.lol

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Adam Wingler
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Posts: 1529

Gotcha.

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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9197

quote:
Originally posted by grntinokla
Adam,no it did not happen to me.It was more like what caused David to ask this to start with,but when we couldn't find the rule is when we got with Allen.Would rather have it clarified here than have it happen in the woods and have one of those "they cheated me " moments in the woods.lol


I personally wrote the article Adam copied here and also covered the question you asked. I think it's well within logic. For the record, it's also one we've written about.

Your scenario was this:
If the stationary is running on a dog and at four minutes has passed when the dog shuts up. The two-minute clock is started. The dog continues to hush until after the five expires but before the two expires when he starts treeing barking again in the same place. Can the handler still call him treed, even though the five has expired?

Again, the answer is no because a dog has to be opening before a call may be accepted. It's also a good reason to call the dog treed before you might get in a pickle like that and can't before it's too late. It's one that will happen once in a blue moon but it certainly can.

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deschmidt27
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
I personally wrote the article Adam copied here and also covered the question you asked. I think it's well within logic. For the record, it's also one we've written about.

Your scenario was this:
If the stationary is running on a dog and at four minutes has passed when the dog shuts up. The two-minute clock is started. The dog continues to hush until after the five expires but before the two expires when he starts treeing barking again in the same place. Can the handler still call him treed, even though the five has expired?

Again, the answer is no because a dog has to be opening before a call may be accepted. It's also a good reason to call the dog treed before you might get in a pickle like that and can't before it's too late. It's one that will happen once in a blue moon but it certainly can.



Thanks Allen, so it's confirmed that the interpretation is still that the "5" is treated similar to a tree call, and the "2" applies. Meaning if your dog is not sure enough to keep barking, which is why you don't want to call him treed, then there's no harm done, as the "2" will break the "5"?

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Allen / UKC
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The 2 breaks to five, yes sir.

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Richard Lambert
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So, if the stationary time gets down to 3 min and your dog barks then you had better tree him.

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