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LoupGarouTFTs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 345

Sick at Heart: Toy Fox Terrier Changes

I was first attracted to TFTs because of their sturdy little bodies and their "can-do" attitudes. To me, the TFT in the NTFTA logo essentially epitomizes the TFT. I was distressed to see the AKC accept the breed, no only because it was the AKC, but also because the change put the TFT in the Toy group and because they changed the weight standard to a height standard that had, what seemed to me, to be an unreasonably high upper limit: 11 inches "preferred" and 11.5 inches "acceptable, with any dog over 11.5 inches being disqualified. The reason this upper limit seemed so unreasonable is because the UKC standard sets a weight limit of 7 pounds. As much as I'd like to go back to a much older standard that had a 7.5 pounds "acceptable" and 7 pounds "preferred" (which I think also had an 8 pound DQ), the 7 pound TFT with decent to excellent bone is a nice-looking dog at up to a 10.5 inch height.

The first changes that I saw were toward a more "refined" head in the AKC dog--I once had an AKC breeder tell me that my dog was okay, but he'd prefer to see a more "refined" head as he drew his hand back along her head, indicating something shaped more like an IG's head. I'm not knocking that kind of head on an IG, but on a TFT?! Naturally, as dogs got taller, they got leaner as dual-registering breeders tried to meet both standards. Legs got thinner, tuck-ups got higher, and the TFT got weedier. I don't mind a "racier" dog, since I see room in the standard for what some people call the "race horse" style dog, but one AKC winning dog I saw recently was tall and high on its legs, it had a long swan-like neck and a tubular body with no chest to speak of, as well as the narrow head. It bore no resemblance to the dog used to illustrate the AKC standard--and please, I don't want anyone to say "but it was a female," since the TFT standard makes no allowance/requirement for dichotomy between the sexes.

As I was watching this dog in the group ring, a girl walked by with what I thought was a stunning Rat Terrier puppy. Oops! It wasn't a RAT that had wandered in after competing in obedience, it was an adult male TFT. He had lovely bone and attractive markings, although he was slightly high in the rear it wasn't as bad as many I've seen in recent years. I asked how old he was--9 months--and he stood 12" at the shoulder. She admitted that he was over-sized and yet I heard the same breeder who talked about "refining" the TFT encourage her to show him, saying that it would "take a little longer," but that she could "definitely" finish him. When I spoke to her, she said she was going to breed him in 2010, because "his sire always produced smaller dogs." HOW TALL WAS HIS SIRE, FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE?! *recovers composure*

So now we have three types of TFT, the waif dog, the moderate dog, and the oversize Rat Terrier clone. The TFT is in serious trouble of losing its identity forever, since the changes that have been occurring in the AKC ring are inevitably affecting the TFT in the UKC ring. How do we go about correcting this problem? I know that when I show my moderate dogs against waifs or Lurches, my dogs frequently end up losing and I wonder if iits because the judges don't see enough correct dogs or because people with correct dogs don't stop to talk to the judges and ask what attracted the judge to the other dog.

Am I tilting at windmills? I know of a number of TFT breeders who do not like the changes we are seeing, but is the trend favored by the majority of TFT breeders? Regardless, I remain saddened by what I see happening to the breed I love. I welcome any constructive and courteous responses and opinions, even if they differ with my own.

__________________
Kimberly Egan
LoupGarou (mostly) Toy Fox Terriers

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

AKC and U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Kajun-Fox Beausoleil CD, RA, CGC
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Cajunization
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Old Post 12-11-2009 04:32 PM
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FlairTFTs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2007
Location: Charleston, West Virginia
Posts: 179

I had a TFT breeder tell me while I was attending an AKC show that, "that is what the fad is now". Again if the judges don't become more strick to the standard as they judge, not what they like, people will keep breeding what is winning not what the standard it.

__________________
Kim Rowley
Charleston, West Virginia
AKC CH/ UKC GR CH 'PR' Flair's Lil' Bro "Eli"
AKC CH/ 2 X RBIMBS GR Ch. Foxpaws Something to Say NB "Maggie"

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Old Post 12-11-2009 08:43 PM
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BriarRoseDachs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 378

quote:
Originally posted by LoupGarouTFTs
Am I tilting at windmills?

I'm afraid so, Kimberly. It's why I gave up fighting....the windmills were winning.

[/i] I know of a number of TFT breeders who do not like the changes we are seeing, but is the trend favored by the majority of TFT breeders? Regardless, I remain saddened by what I see happening to the breed I love. [/QUOTE]

I don't know if you and I are in the minority or not. I guess we'll find out if the majority votes to change the UKC standard to a height DQ. That will put us on the path to bigger dogs.

What I don't understand is why after 60 years the written standard no longer works? For 50+ years breeders were able to breed dogs that were structurally sound and still fit the standard, why is it now deemed to be unattainable? I too have had dogs that did not look good at 7lbs, they simply weren't shown. These dogs were welcomed in pet and performance homes.

I'm told that a revised standard will help those who are having a difficult time breeding to the existing one and it will ultimately improve the quality of the Toy Fox Terrier. I have my doubts but will remain in my holding pattern waiting to see what happens. I'm not going to sink any more money into a breeding program that may ultimately go out of fashion. I no longer belong to any clubs by choice, so I have no say in where this all goes. My control lies within my household.

Tammy

Last edited by BriarRoseDachs on 12-12-2009 at 01:04 PM

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Old Post 12-12-2009 12:59 PM
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skelaki
New UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2007
Location: CA
Posts: 27

The things that attracted me to the TFT were their size ( I was looking to downsize from Collies), sturdiness, healthiness, and attitude. It would be a shame if they lost any of those attributes. I love IGs and seriously considered the breed but eliminated them primarily due to being overly delicate (it seemed like theycould break a bone by breathing wrong), but I don't want an IG TFT.

Maybe it's hopeless and maybe not but if those who want moderate TFTs that meet the standard don't say or do anything then we can't complain when things change and the breed becomes more Toy like or larger or changes to look like a different breed.

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Old Post 12-12-2009 02:32 PM
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Foxlair
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 132

According the National Toy Fox Terrier Association Constitution

The standard cannot be changed without a majority vote of the membership, at least that was in the last consitution I saw.
Those who are truly concerned, and I am one, should join the national, if not already members. Then vote, if any change comes in the form of a ballot, to hold the line against these changes. I have said several times in the past that most of the dogs who finish in AKC (not all, but most) could not get past the scale to enter the UKC show ring. I said this with pride in our standard and the fact that the weigh- in is usually enforced.

I, as a judge, will not judge TFTs unless they have been weighed in. For those who say, not all scales are accurate, that may be, BUT they are better than no scales at all!!!

Join the national, encourage others to join the national, and VOTE to keep our standard unchanged. If not, our breed will go like the others who no longer have a height standard with disqualification, only an "eliminating fault".

Violet Denney
Foxlair TFTs and UKC Judge

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Old Post 12-12-2009 09:44 PM
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Maldonfox
New UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Canton, GA
Posts: 3

The Standard "DOES" Work

The written standard "DOES" work. What I see happening is that certain individuals are trying to change the standard to fit what they are breeding and that is dogs that do not fit the standard. This is the same thing that happened when the standard was written for AKC. They changed from weight to height and also included “Chocolate” in the standard to accommodate a few individuals that couldn’t show their dogs.

The AKC standard makes reference to a height of 8 1/2" to 11 1/2" with 9" to 11" being preferred. If the AKC Standard for the Toy Fox had made a reference that a dog of this preferred height "should weigh approx. 6 to 7 lbs” there would be a lot less confusion over the substance and bone in the Toy Fox Terrier that we are seeing today.

I have no trouble constantly producing dogs that weigh between 5 1/2 lbs and 6 1/2 lbs. They stand 10 to 10 1/2" tall and when put on the scale I have no doubt they will weigh in without depriving them of food.

If you have a dog in your breeding program and this dog is producing dogs that are not within the standard, eliminate it! If you don't, you will never be able to breed a correct Toy Fox Terrier.

Recently I was asked what I thought of amending the standard to include Mini TFTs and Standard TFTs. I was told, “Minis would be TFTs that are 7 lbs and under and Standards over 7 lbs.”

A thought occurred to me after having spoken at length with several Smooth Fox Terrier breeders. I own a Smooth Fox. We've shown and bred them. One conversation in particular that stands out in my mind was the development of the Toy Fox Terrier from the Smooth Fox. The Toy Fox Terrier was developed by breeding the smallest, scrappy little Smooth Fox Terriers. Some of the Smooth Fox Terrier breeders that I've spoken with could see this development of the breed because the smaller SFTs have shorter muzzles and the smaller ears will stand erect. Allowing larger dogs into the standard would be reversing evolution. You would end up with a different breed over time. A breed that would probably be very similar to the Rat Terrier but looking like a bad Toy Fox.

This is a Toy and a Terrier. I want to see it stay a Toy and a Terrier.

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Old Post 12-12-2009 11:55 PM
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LoupGarouTFTs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 345

quote:
The written standard "DOES" work. What I see happening is that certain individuals are trying to change the standard to fit what they are breeding and that is dogs that do not fit the standard. This is the same thing that happened when the standard was written for AKC. They changed from weight to height and also included “Chocolate” in the standard to accommodate a few individuals that couldn’t show their dogs.


I agree; the standard does work. Ithink that the change from weight to height could have worked if the people who wrote the standard had not been determined to divorce themselves from the UKC influence entirely. I wouldn't mind seeing nicely colored chocolate dogs competing in UKC and, now that we have single registration of AKC-only stock, I foresee a day when it might become necessary to include them. I'd rather have the chocolates honestly registered, though, rather them be "hidden" as white and tans in TFT pedigrees.

quote:
The AKC standard makes reference to a height of 8 1/2" to 11 1/2" with 9" to 11" being preferred. If the AKC Standard for the Toy Fox had made a reference that a dog of this preferred height "should weigh approx. 6 to 7 lbs” there would be a lot less confusion over the substance and bone in the Toy Fox Terrier that we are seeing today.

I have no trouble constantly producing dogs that weigh between 5 1/2 lbs and 6 1/2 lbs. They stand 10 to 10 1/2" tall and when put on the scale I have no doubt they will weigh in without depriving them of food.


At one AKC show I attended, a handler looked down his nose at a little female that I was handling and told me that she was "supposed to be 8.5 inches at the shoulder, not at the head." The truth is that she measured 9 inches at the shoulder and was not yet finished growing. I feel that this experience is a good indication of how skewed the perception of height in the breed had grown, even a few years ago.

Again, I personally believe that the AKC standard was written to intentionally diverge from what is ideal in UKC, to give people with larger dogs a chance at show success. I am pleased to say that the dogs I am breeding are on the smallish side with good angulation and nice level toplines--and I am working toward improving the bone in them as well. I believe I have all of the components that I need to launch my own line of what I hope will be small, compact, and healthy little dogs that will resemble my ideal image, dogs that will have an upper limit of 10 to 10.5 inches and of 6 to 7 pounds. My concern is that they may never win in the AKC ring, simply because there are so many incorrect dogs being shown in that venue, but I will not abandon what I feel is right just to submit to a fad.

quote:
If you have a dog in your breeding program and this dog is producing dogs that are not within the standard, eliminate it! If you don't, you will never be able to breed a correct Toy Fox Terrier.


The same litter that produced the nice little 9 inch girl also produced a 12.5 inch male. He was a very handsome dog who got neutered and placed in a pet home. Someone joked that it was a shame I'd neutered him, since someone could have single registered him and used him in a Rat Terrier breeding program. Heaven knows, he was closer to resembling a RAT than proper TFT.

quote:
Recently I was asked what I thought of amending the standard to include Mini TFTs and Standard TFTs. I was told, “Minis would be TFTs that are 7 lbs and under and Standards over 7 lbs.”


Seriously? What's next, Teacup TFTs? I think that it would not hurt to include folded ears in the standard, chocolates, and accommodate different tail lengths, but folded ears and chocolates are historically present in the breed and it might become necessary to accommodate people who own/breed/show TFTs in areas that ban tail docking. Personally, I think that with all of the changes we are seeing, there should be a breed division between the original form of TFT and the "American Terrier" or something of that sort.

Anyway, I am a member of the NTFTA and will remain faithful to my mental image of the correct TFT. I'll also continue to dual register my dogs and continue to show in AKC, with the hopes that I can do some good educating people in that venue. I might not become very popular, but I suspect I might end up calling for a wicket in the future, too . . .

__________________
Kimberly Egan
LoupGarou (mostly) Toy Fox Terriers

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

AKC and U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Kajun-Fox Beausoleil CD, RA, CGC
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Cajunization
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Christmas Bayou

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Old Post 12-13-2009 02:28 AM
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skelaki
New UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2007
Location: CA
Posts: 27

I agree that it's not the standards as written that are the problem. The problem is with people who breed and show dogs that do not meet tha standard and with judges who put these dogs up instead of withholding awards or dismissing them if they should be DQ'd. And, yes, I do realize that sometimes a judge has never seen a correct TFT or is leary of upsetting someone, especially Professional handlers (AKC) or someone well established in the breed, but it's important they do just that when necessary. And a judge has the responsibility to know the standard for breeds he/she judges, whether UKC, AKC or any other venue. I applaud judges that do know and have the courage to uphold the standard. We should support them.

This is my first TFT and I plan to join the National breed club as soon as I have the sponsers I need to do so.

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- John Holmes

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Old Post 12-13-2009 08:44 AM
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FlairTFTs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2007
Location: Charleston, West Virginia
Posts: 179

don't delay they will help you find sponsor I'm sure. talk to Julie, the president

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Kim Rowley
Charleston, West Virginia
AKC CH/ UKC GR CH 'PR' Flair's Lil' Bro "Eli"
AKC CH/ 2 X RBIMBS GR Ch. Foxpaws Something to Say NB "Maggie"

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Old Post 12-13-2009 10:24 PM
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Kathleen Chance
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2006
Location:
Posts: 168

NTFTA Membership

John,

I will be happy to sponsor you and I am sure Julie Slaturbeck will also. go to the NTFTA website and print the membership application for new Members.

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Kathleen Chance

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Old Post 12-14-2009 10:50 PM
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brat pack
New UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2009
Location: georgia
Posts: 24

Yall better get moving!! Look what has happened to the Apbt. Very few breed to the new standard imo. You have 5 or so different looking dogs calling themselves apbts.
I would love to see the apbts still look like terriers.

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Old Post 12-15-2009 02:37 AM
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LoupGarouTFTs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 345

Kathleen, I have already offered to sponsor Skelaki, whom I've known for several years now.

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Kimberly Egan
LoupGarou (mostly) Toy Fox Terriers

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

AKC and U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Kajun-Fox Beausoleil CD, RA, CGC
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Cajunization
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Christmas Bayou

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Old Post 12-15-2009 05:55 AM
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Dianne Mc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 48

Sick at heart

Yes, Kim it would be terrible to lose our precious Toy Fox Terriers - to fads. Stick to the Standard. There's no need to change the Standard - as to weight or height, leave it alone.
Dianne Mc

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Old Post 12-15-2009 08:23 PM
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skelaki
New UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2007
Location: CA
Posts: 27

Thank you

I just wanted to thant everyone who's offered to sponser me with the NTFTA. I will be joining on my next pay period and wish I could list you all as sponsers. It's nice to know I'll be joining such a welcoming group of dog people.

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- John Holmes

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Old Post 12-16-2009 07:00 PM
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LoupGarouTFTs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 345

As much as I respect the opinions of those individuals who have stated that TFTs come from standard-sized Smooth Fox Terriers and therefore carry genes for larger size, I have to say that TFTs are not SFTs. TFTs are a breed unto themselves, not a variety of the larger dog, so the comparison with its forerunner are not legitimate. If the Toy Fox Terrier was simply to be a smaller variety of the SFT, then it would not have the prick ears required for the breed and the dock of the tail would be substantially different. The color patterning would also be quite different, in that split faces and differently colored head and body patches might be allowed. In short, the originators of the breed apparently wanted a dog different than the original SFT and created language in the standard to reflect those differences.

I see no reason that smaller dogs cannot be "robust and healthy." It seems to me that since the origin of the breed the TFT has been a robust and healthy dog that had many uses on the farm. It was not simply a ratter; the Toy Fox Terrier was also commonly used to hunt squirrels. Go back far enough in any of the older TFT lines and you will find dogs with squirrel hunting titles and even nite hunt titles. They may have had slightly greater weight limits, but they were not held to a height standard. Somehow they managed to do all of their work with few broken bones--I imagine that the selection in those cases was natural selection, in that those who broke and those who did not work were eliminated from the gene pool through death or deliberat culling.

Unfortunately, the history of these farm dogs is shrouded in some mystery. Farmers do not often keep track of what dog is being bred to what dog in the manner that conformation breeders do. They breed for working ability and characteristics, not pedigree. Multiple-sired litters are pretty much a way of life when intact dogs run free together. There might be no proof that there is Chihuahua in the TFT lineage; however, the curled tail suggests that the Chihuahua is there. There is no proof that the MinPin is there, either, but the shorter forearm and the insufficient shoulder angle that produces hackney movement suggests that there may have been one or two or more in the mix as well. Once again, however, the current breed is not simply the sum of its parts. It is its own unique breed, no matter what dogs have been meshed to produce it. I have never seen evidence of "dwarfism related anomalies" in Toy Fox Terriers. In general, they are a healthy breed that can still function as normal dogs.

To say that the TFT must have a narrower head to make it "more functional and punishing to get rid of vermin" seems to be a reasonable argument on its face, but it does not take into account the other terrier breeds that do not have extremely narrow heads. Look at the historical Fox Terrier and the historical Scottish, Airedale, Soft Wheaten, and other breeds of terrier, none of those heads were extremely narrow in order to be "punishing." In fact, many of the gripping breeds have wider heads and shorter muzzles to proved greater deadly force. A terrier need not grip its prey for any length of time to provide the killing blow to its prey. That force is created by the "terrier shake," which is used to sever the spine of its prey as it quickly moves from one mouse or rat to the next. TFTs, like other terriers need sufficient span of head and jaw to create the force necessary to bite down on their prey and shake hard enough to kill--there is no need to crush or hold on for any length of time. For the same reason, an elegant neck can become too elegant (Dobermans with Wobblers come to mind) and prevent the terrier from being able to effectively shake its prey.

I cannot for the life of me think of a good reason for why a weight limit, which has been in place for decades, is suddenly "not the best for our breed." Previous to the creation of the AKC standard, with its unreasonably tall upper height limit of 11.5 inches, dogs that were not able to be weighed in prior to being shown were simply removed from the show ring, if not from the breeding pool. I agree that some dogs may have had food withheld prior to being shown, but that strategy can only work to a certain degree. While it might be possible to withhold food to shave a half a pound or a quarter of a pound from dogs the size of the TFT, it is not possible to withhold a substantial amount of food without the dog becoming impaired or looking unhealthy. Such a dog would not win, so there is no point continuing the practice to any great degree. I see no reason for the older and more proven standard to adjust itself to the newer standard, especially in that the height standard is not being adhered to and the size of dogs is getting ever greater. If the AKC were to require that dogs were wicketed prior to going into the ring, as UKC TFTs are required to be weighed at each and every show, it might be worth considering if the AKC were to reduce its height limit.

I think that if there had not been such a concerted effort for people to modify the AKC standard away from the UKC standard and if there had not been the change from one group to another, then the problems that we are seeing would not have occurred. We simply need to find a way to return the breed to its original style and standard by correcting failed breeding practices or we must acknowledge that the TFT is no longer the same breed that it was and that we have failed as a group to protect the identity of the breed and move on to where we have divisions that are so familiar in Labrador retrievers, English Springer Spaniels, and German Shepherd Dogs, to name a few breeds. At that point, I think we need to divide the breed into the true TFT and petition to make the diverging dogs into their own breed or start breeding them with SFTs and creating a variety of that breed. The UKC TFT, quite simply, is the original TFT and no re-visioning is needed to make a viable breed.

__________________
Kimberly Egan
LoupGarou (mostly) Toy Fox Terriers

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

AKC and U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Kajun-Fox Beausoleil CD, RA, CGC
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Cajunization
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Christmas Bayou

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Old Post 12-17-2009 08:42 PM
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Littletown
New UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 29

Sick At Heart, TFT Changes

Quote, originally posted by LoupGarouTFTs:

"Go back far enough in any of the older TFT lines and you will find dogs with squirrel hunting titles and even nite hunt titles".

Hi, Kim - Please let me know the names of any of these TFTs with squirrel hunting titles and night hunt titles.

I am currently researching this topic, & since you have mentioned that you are aware of TFTs with these titled dogs in their background, kindly inform me where you found this information.

Thank you.

Deb

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Old Post 01-09-2010 05:51 PM
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LoupGarouTFTs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 345

Hi Deb,

I found the names of these dogs about five years ago when I was doing pedigree research and entering pedigrees into Pawvillage.com. It would take me a long time to find them again, but I was so stunned to find them that the memory stuck with me from that time. I'm swamped with homework and work right now, plus I am not currently staying at my own home, but I will try to go back through all of the pedigrees that I have (which seem legion) and see if I can find the dogs with those titles. It might be faster for you to go to the UKC and pay the research fees, though--I'm sure that they can get the information that you need and far more quickly and accurately than I can.

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Kimberly Egan
LoupGarou (mostly) Toy Fox Terriers

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

AKC and U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Kajun-Fox Beausoleil CD, RA, CGC
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Cajunization
U-Ch. 'PR' LoupGarou Christmas Bayou

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Dianne Mc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 48

tft

Hi, I used to have a TFT that had in it's pedigree a Nite Hunt Champion. I will try to find his pedigree. This was about 20 years or so ago. If I cannot find this old pedigree I may still have his UKC #, if you decide to have this researched by UKC.
Dianne

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McConnell's Toy Fox Terriers
Champion & Grand Champion Lines

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Old Post 01-09-2010 10:21 PM
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Littletown
New UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 29

Sick At Heart, TFT Changes

Hi, Kim and Dianne -

Thank you both for responding to my inquiry.

First, a reply to Kim: Not to worry, if you are that busy, I can understand how you would not have time to go pedigree-hunting!
But if you ever do happen to come across those names again, please let me know, ok?

Dianne: If you could find that pedigree & make a copy for me, I would just love that! I also "collect" pedigrees, & have always been interested in them. As you probably know, Eliza managed to trace the bloodlines of HER TFTs all the way back to a particular Smooth Fox Terrier line, & I located photos of those Smooths & sent them to her. Because those dogs are also the ancestors to all of mine...

I did contact the UKC, & spoke to someone who put me in touch with the Coonhound Nite Hunt program person. According to him, the Coonhound Nite Championship title "dates back to the '50's", and he stated that the TFTs could not have won that title because they are not even allowed to participate.

However, I found out something interesting while talking to him. He said that the UKC Cur / Feist program has been in effect only for the past "5-7 years", and although he did not think that any TFTs had earned a Nite Championship through this program, it IS possible, because the Cur / Feist events are actually open to ANY BREED OTHER THAN COONHOUNDS, and I did not know that!

Deb

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Old Post 01-11-2010 09:06 PM
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Dianne Mc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 48

tft

Hi Donna, I could not find the original pedigree on "Pr" McConnell's Sir J Rice, but I found a copy. It has Rice's UKC # and the UKC# of: Nite Ch "PR" Hicks Tag of Wee-Ac
Could you send me your e-mail address and I can fold this pedigree to scan and make 3 pages and I can forward it to you? Rice never made it to Champion as he hated the show ring. He was 5 1/2 lbs. born in 1989, had some nice puppies from him. Tag is in the 6th generation. You'd have to guess as to the year unless you ordered his pedigree. I know of most of the kennel names in the pedigree(or heard of them). Hicks is on my lists of old time breeders: P V Hicks California in the 1950's ( found the name listed in Bloodlines, from way back then.
Dianne Mc

Ps I have a 7 page list of old time breeders that I finished in 2003 and passed out to anyone who wanted one at a National show back then, If you would like one, let me know.

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McConnell's Toy Fox Terriers
Champion & Grand Champion Lines

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Old Post 01-12-2010 09:35 PM
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Foxpaws
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Louisville,KY
Posts: 119

I sold two TFT's back in the late 70's that went to Feist hunts in Kentucky. I think they were even reregistered as Feists, but not sure.

I also had 2 TFT's that went to a man in Tennessee who hunted bear with them. This was in the early 80's. There was a picture sent in to BLOODLINES with the dog trying to climb the tree after the bear. I am not sure if I even have that picture.

Ann Mauermann

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Old Post 01-15-2010 02:24 PM
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Foxpaws
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Louisville,KY
Posts: 119

I am also upset that there are those who want to change the standard. I really would like to know the reason behind this. Is it because the new people coming from AKC to show in UKC, that their dogs are overweight and they can't show them? Why has the standard been okay for some 50 years except for a few changes? It used to be that the Tri-color was the acceptable color but white and tans could be shown. This was one of the changes made so that both the Tri and White and Tan were acceptable.

When I was a National TFT officer there were exhibitors who would have liked to have had the weight changed to offer those from 7 to 10 pounds a chance to show. This was not acceptable to the NTFTA and the issue went no further.

I hope UKC listens to the TFT breeders and lets the Standard stay as is.

Ann Mauermann

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Old Post 01-15-2010 02:37 PM
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Littletown
New UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 29

Sick At Heart, TFT Changes

DITTO, Ann.......DITTO.

There is simply NO GOOD reason to change our breed standard. When something is "good enough" to work well for over 50 years, it is "good enough" to remain the same.

Because the truth of the matter is, when someone wants to CHANGE something, it is usually because they are UNHAPPY with (or NOT satisfied with) whatever it is they want to change.

And if the breed standard had been left unchanged when this breed was first taken to AKC for approval, we would not need to be having this discussion...

I will continue to work with the good, old bloodlines of TFTs, with typical heights of 10-10.5 inches and average weights of 5-7 pounds. I register with both registries, but I breed to the UKC standard, because it is the ORIGINAL breed standard.

Deb
www.freewebs.com/littletowntoyfoxterriers

P.S. Ann, I sure would like to see that photo of your bear-hunting TFT!

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