Registered: Sep 2012
Location:
Posts: 74

Just seeing what everyone’s opinion on how long you give a pup to start ? Background on the pup , English , bred the very best , handles great , great mouth , good looks , will go every step with older dogs , the negative is he will not open , tree , fight a coon , or even act interested in a cage coon .. he’s a little over a year , been to the woods I would say probably 20-25 times has opened a few times, like I said he will go every step when you send them , you can see on the garmin is with them , will be at tree when you get there , but other than that not much interest ... when do you guys draw the line and move on ? I have a great older female to send him with , but losing patience on a pup that doesn’t seem to try !!

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5639

Only you can decide if it's working or not, I prefer one with natural talent that is easy to start and never looks back. You only have so much time, why waste it in a dud. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 1110

I never had much patience waiting on a pup to start but some do start later. Seems like sometimes it just takes the right situation. But with that said one of the best I ever hunted with did nothing until he was 2 years old. My friend would have culled him but he was a Christmas present from his wife. One night the other dogs were already down in the woods trailing a coon. He left the truck went different direction and struck and treed a coon. From that night on he looked like he had done it for years. But I don't think there are many like him.

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Tom Wood

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Registered: Sep 2019
Location: North Texas
Posts: 28

You have already shown more patience than most would have. I commend you for that. I agree with Mr. Richards that YOU are the only one who can decide when it’s time to move on.
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I have had failures & successes working with dogs like this. If I really liked the dog as an individual, believed in the bloodline, and didn’t have access to a better prospect, I would try a couple things to motor him up. He would have to be an easy keeper, angel in the yard/kennel, and not trash or get out of pocket to screw up hunts.

It sounds like the dog hasn’t figured out they need to contribute to the hunt. He is content to run along and watch the old dog do the work. He is taking his opportunity for granted. I would leave him at home a few times and haul the old dog w/o him. Make sure he knows you are intentionally leaving him out of the hunt. After doing this a few times, I would haul him on the hunt BUT leave him in the box while the old dog hunts, strikes, & trees. Do this until he really wants to go to the old dog. Let her tree, lead him to the tree and tie him back. Make him watch you shoot the Coon and let the old dog fight it in front of him. Do this a couple times and do not let him touch the Coon. He should be going bonkers to get in on it. At that point I would let him fight the next Coon only if he was going crazy to get in on it. I would do this one time and then try to drop him and the old dog into fresh Coon sign immediately after. If he doesn’t get motored you by these steps, I would cut my losses and move on.

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Leon

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: London, KY
Posts: 2122

Some of the best I ever followed started late some wasn’t given a chance biggest part is wrong man behind them not talking about your training at all but most guys don’t have a clue when it comes to a young dog most get ruined in a kennel just as well shoot one as leave it in a kennel more to,it than hunting it.

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Registered: Aug 2011
Location: Emporia, Kansas
Posts: 372

a lot depends on what the "best breeding" is. did you see the sire and dam?
about 1977 I bought a pup from Albert Burch I named him Walnut Valley Butch (Spud)
I was getting very discouraged when he was 10 months old. Called Mr Burch MANY times after that -- he told me that if he had not done anything by 18 months old he would replace..way back then I hunted almost every night.. time tales its toll!
anyway one night I traveled to Fall River KS to hunt with Don Williams. long story shortened the 1st drop he did nothing.. moved to Indian Creek.. treed 2 more coon.. still nothing . The 3rd drop we turned out ion a 2 track where a coon crossed. ol Spud ran track all the way with the other dogs and treed... We tied the other hounds up and rolled the coon out to Spud and he fought it like he had been doing it for a long time.
He was 16 months old
the next night here at home he opened with my old Rose female and treed 3 up one tree behind her.
from that night one he was a BROKE coon dog.
I sure do prefer them to start doing something before 1 year old But my bench mark for a change of scenery is 18 months old.
I have only seen 3 or 4 cases like him since then.
..
It goes without saying tha all do not ever make passable coon dogs and even then those get bred to produce even more of he same .

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Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Central,illinois
Posts: 569

Season is just around the corner unless you've got another started here's your chance to ansewer all your questions, hunt him all you can the next 60 days then you'll know without a doubt....good luck

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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Jacksonville NC
Posts: 149

I bought a Hardwood Dan pup back in early 90's from Thad Howard that did the same thing and would not tree a lick. Would go with other dogs but just would not tree. She would open some and fight a coon but would not tree. When she turned close to 2yrs old I gave her to a deer hunter to try and make a trail dog. By the time she was 3 1/2 she quit running deer and started treeing coons during the day. Her genetics took over and she became what she was bred to do. But my best hounds seem to always start early....

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Roy Jarman

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Registered: Sep 2012
Location:
Posts: 74

Guys , I really appreciate all the replies and I am open ears to anything you all might think would help , just gotn in from another hunt and same thing, pup went, old dogs struck and treed down at about 500 yards in some thick nasty stuff , he went every step and never made a peep.. I’m gonna give this pup about another 30 days and if he doesn’t do something I will get rid of him ... I’m no professional coon dog trainer , but I have trained a lot of really good roping horses , and the good ones you just have to point in the right direction and they pretty much make themselves .. it’s been my observation dogs are about the same ... papers and high class breeding give you an idea of potential , but if they don’t perform those papers might as well be a good fire starter !! Thanks

Last edited by rockin12 on 10-14-2020 at 02:40 PM

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Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Central,illinois
Posts: 569

I think you have a good plan with your pup I mite ad like one of the above posters leave him out of the action a few times and he wouldn't taste another coon unless he was barking....good luck with your dog.

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Dan&Ann I have the same story as you have. I am in no way putting Hardwood Dan down or disrespecting him in any way. He was one of the best coonhounds I ever hunted with or against. I had several pups out him and I think if Mr. Paul was alive today he was say he was somewhat disappointed in how he reproduced. With that said, many ended up in my deer hound pack and then some later on seemed to realize coon were their cup of tea. As far as the original question. I think you can see potential at a young age. If, I don't see the potential they are gone. Time is of the essence in my book dealing with hounds. Because we are going to all end up old and spending your time waiting on a young dog, most of the time just doesn't work out.

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Rockin relating a little more to your story. Back in the 80's my Buddy had a top english female when it came to treeing coon/ Just don't remember anything about her pedigree. Talked my buddy into taking her to AL and breeding to RF Dickeys Junior dog. Best built, best looking pups a man could ask for. One out of the litter made a coondog and that one was blue colored. The rest did like you said except we didn't have gamins to figure it out. Most disappointing litter I was every associated with. Now Junior threw some nice english hounds. Just not in that litter. But I have seen it in all lines. Some just don't work out and it depends on the owners time and patience how long the dog sticks around.

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"Boss Lights"

Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 10-14-2020 at 03:59 PM

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Registered: Sep 2012
Location:
Posts: 74

Yes I agree , you can waste a lot of time on one seeing if they are going to make it .. I will give anything the benefit of the doubt , humans , horses or dogs if I feel like they are trying ... right now I really question this pups try , not his go , but just his instincts as a hound , he acts like he has no clue what a coon is .. idk .. aggravating for sure , I will keep everyone updated on his progress, should hunt a few more nights this week

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2745

I am about to raise some eyebrows. have you ever taken your pup by himself?
Before I gave up on him, I would take him without another dog in the truck. Take him out and see if he'll do anything, anything at all. Try him just like he has been to the woods. Forget what he HAS shown you.

I know, why would you take him by himself if he's not doing anything with the other dogs.

Several years ago I picked up a blue dog for my nephew, at the PKC world hunt at Aurora Ky. A beautiful dog (12, 13, 14 months old can't remember). He had shown on bench and not hunted much. I had a pretty good English female we took him with, he wouldn't even follow her on the first drop second drop third drop. I was extremely disappointed (not for me but my nephew) I tried to be positive, but I was thinking COUNTERFEIT SOB.

My nephew wanted to go hunting and for some reason I couldn't take my dog, I don't remember why, maybe coming in, but we couldn't take her.

I am not going to tell he took off like a world class hound, because he didn't. He milled around and didn't do anything. We walked down to the creek and stood there, he finally left and stayed gone 15 or so and came back. Dropped again, same thing, he left but that he opened a few times and eventually came back.

We went home after that, and said let's try again tomorrow night.

To make a long story short. We kept taking him and he got better, he'd take off and go. Sometimes he strike and work on a track. He didn't tree by himself, but when I was able to put red back in the game things started work.

It didn't happen over night, it took a month or two, and I hate to say it but he made a better dog than my ole red. He hunted that dog with anybody anywhere. When you cut him loose you either pulled off a tree or called him back. He got to be known as "the Smoke dog". He had him and hunted regular for a couple years until he got stole out of his pen.

It was not planned, but if we had not started messing with him by himself and he showed me that little little bit when he was by himself, I would have given up and found my nephew another dog.

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ringtail dave

"TREE MY DOG" - NO BETTER FEELING

NAADP Charter Member....... appointed by King Dave himself........

Last edited by ringtail on 10-15-2020 at 02:30 AM

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Registered: Sep 2012
Location:
Posts: 74

Ringtail
Really cool story and to answer you no I haven’t hunted him by himself , might try to do that and will for sure before I make the final decision on him

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

ringtail that was great insight into this situation.

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Registered: Mar 2017
Location:
Posts: 234

A lot of it depends on how the pup was raised usually one that gets to run loose all the time and has been messed with from the time they are 8 or 10 weeks old will start earlier than one that sits in the kennel for the first six months of their life . Every pup is different their just like kids they don’t all mature at the same age . I would tie him back at the tree and knock a coon out to the other dogs don’t let him get any of it , it should drive him nuts . Sometimes it’s little things that flip their switch

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Registered: May 2006
Location: Pamplin Va.
Posts: 454

Over the last 20 years I have fooled with a lot of pups, usually 2 out of the same litter. I pick them up at weaning and spend a lot of time with them, i find that usually I get attached or prefer the one that trees first, then I usually at some point sell one to concentrate on the other. Only one time in twenty years did both pups turn out to be something you would be proud to take to town. Way more failures than success stories, sometimes both pups flopped, some would be completely opposite in style and or ability. But over all these years the one thing that got me excited was one that starts early, at the end of the day all that really means is it started early, and is not indicative of what the final product will be, but it gets me excited, because I see potential. On the other hand one that starts late or has little to no interest I dont waste a lot of time on, I have kept a few past 12 months of age but not many, there are too many out there reproducing early starters to waste time on waiting one to flip the switch. I do not start my pups with an old dog, I start them all by themselves, I isually dont hunt them with another dog until they have treed 15-20 coons. Once I experienced a pup that could tree its own coon at 5/6 months of age, I have found it more difficult to put much time in slow starters.

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Dean Jamerson

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 34

quote:

---

Originally posted by ringtail
I am about to raise some eyebrows. have you ever taken your pup by himself?
Before I gave up on him, I would take him without another dog in the truck. Take him out and see if he'll do anything, anything at all. Try him just like he has been to the woods. Forget what he HAS shown you.

I know, why would you take him by himself if he's not doing anything with the other dogs.

Several years ago I picked up a blue dog for my nephew, at the PKC world hunt at Aurora Ky. A beautiful dog (12, 13, 14 months old can't remember). He had shown on bench and not hunted much. I had a pretty good English female we took him with, he wouldn't even follow her on the first drop second drop third drop. I was extremely disappointed (not for me but my nephew) I tried to be positive, but I was thinking COUNTERFEIT SOB.

My nephew wanted to go hunting and for some reason I couldn't take my dog, I don't remember why, maybe coming in, but we couldn't take her.

I am not going to tell he took off like a world class hound, because he didn't. He milled around and didn't do anything. We walked down to the creek and stood there, he finally left and stayed gone 15 or so and came back. Dropped again, same thing, he left but that he opened a few times and eventually came back.

We went home after that, and said let's try again tomorrow night.

To make a long story short. We kept taking him and he got better, he'd take off and go. Sometimes he strike and work on a track. He didn't tree by himself, but when I was able to put red back in the game things started work.

It didn't happen over night, it took a month or two, and I hate to say it but he made a better dog than my ole red. He hunted that dog with anybody anywhere. When you cut him loose you either pulled off a tree or called him back. He got to be known as "the Smoke dog". He had him and hunted regular for a couple years until he got stole out of his pen.

It was not planned, but if we had not started messing with him by himself and he showed me that little little bit when he was by himself, I would have given up and found my nephew another dog.

---

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1911

quote:

---

Originally posted by dean jamerson
Over the last 20 years I have fooled with a lot of pups, usually 2 out of the same litter. I pick them up at weaning and spend a lot of time with them, i find that usually I get attached or prefer the one that trees first, then I usually at some point sell one to concentrate on the other. Only one time in twenty years did both pups turn out to be something you would be proud to take to town. Way more failures than success stories, sometimes both pups flopped, some would be completely opposite in style and or ability. But over all these years the one thing that got me excited was one that starts early, at the end of the day all that really means is it started early, and is not indicative of what the final product will be, but it gets me excited, because I see potential. On the other hand one that starts late or has little to no interest I dont waste a lot of time on, I have kept a few past 12 months of age but not many, there are too many out there reproducing early starters to waste time on waiting one to flip the switch. I do not start my pups with an old dog, I start them all by themselves, I isually dont hunt them with another dog until they have treed 15-20 coons. Once I experienced a pup that could tree its own coon at 5/6 months of age, I have found it more difficult to put much time in slow starters.

---

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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