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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 2154

Babbling vs. Silent

Babbling.
(1) I remember a strain of Blue dogs that was noted for babbling. As a result, UKC moved first tree points to 125.
(2) I know of a strain of Walkers (current) that is well known for babbling. They are more popular in PKC than UKC.
(3) Sometimes young dogs that really aren't ready or can't keep up will "dog track". This is not the same as babbling, but can have the same affect. I can see where people could see these dogs as babblers that won't tree their own coon. The reality is that they haven't been trained and broke.

Silent.
(1) I actually see more of this than I used to. Some may not be fully silent, but are still pretty tight.
(2) If you are hunting a silent or tight mouthed dog, an honest open trailer can be viewed as a babbler in comparison. The reality is that they are just open trailing dogs, and yes they will get strike over those that don't open at all, or open very sparingly.

Overall.
(1) Yes, there are some actual babblers, but they are not as abundant as some like to think.
(2) As people hunt younger dogs in the hunts, the dog tracking can be an issue. As far as strike points go, it can have the same affect as babbling, but it's not the same thing.
(3) With the prevalence of tight mouthed dogs today, the people hunting them will look at an honest striking open trailer as a babbler. In the hunts, an honest strike dog has the same strike advantage over a tight mouth dog, as the babbler has over an honest strike dog.
(4) Addendum: I can't see how anyone hunting (do you still call it hunting) off of buckets can complain about dogs babbling.

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Old Post 10-15-2018 02:46 AM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5612

Strike dogs

Guys, I am saying WE know what our dogs are doing [or should ], we know if they smell a track, it's up to the handler to minus their own dog if they are honest handlers. If they aren't honest handlers, they can play stupid and go by the RULES , it's up to each individual. Don't blame the system, blame the handler who plays the system and says they are just going by the RULES [they are ]. Honor RULES should be that HONORABLE. Dave

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Old Post 10-15-2018 05:09 AM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5612

Strike dogs

Double post.sorry.

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Old Post 10-15-2018 05:09 AM
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Ricochet17
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7056

Re: Strike dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Guys, I am saying WE know what our dogs are doing [or should ], we know if they smell a track, it's up to the handler to minus their own dog if they are honest handlers. If they aren't honest handlers, they can play stupid and go by the RULES , it's up to each individual. Don't blame the system, blame the handler who plays the system and says they are just going by the RULES [they are ]. Honor RULES should be that HONORABLE. Dave


Same thing goes for slick trees.

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Old Post 10-15-2018 05:54 AM
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Chuck Allen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
Posts: 1237

Re: Babbling vs. Silent

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
Babbling.
(1) I remember a strain of Blue dogs that was noted for babbling. As a result, UKC moved first tree points to 125.
(2) I know of a strain of Walkers (current) that is well known for babbling. They are more popular in PKC than UKC.
(3) Sometimes young dogs that really aren't ready or can't keep up will "dog track". This is not the same as babbling, but can have the same affect. I can see where people could see these dogs as babblers that won't tree their own coon. The reality is that they haven't been trained and broke.

Silent.
(1) I actually see more of this than I used to. Some may not be fully silent, but are still pretty tight.
(2) If you are hunting a silent or tight mouthed dog, an honest open trailer can be viewed as a babbler in comparison. The reality is that they are just open trailing dogs, and yes they will get strike over those that don't open at all, or open very sparingly.

Overall.
(1) Yes, there are some actual babblers, but they are not as abundant as some like to think.
(2) As people hunt younger dogs in the hunts, the dog tracking can be an issue. As far as strike points go, it can have the same affect as babbling, but it's not the same thing.
(3) With the prevalence of tight mouthed dogs today, the people hunting them will look at an honest striking open trailer as a babbler. In the hunts, an honest strike dog has the same strike advantage over a tight mouth dog, as the babbler has over an honest strike dog.
(4) Addendum: I can't see how anyone hunting (do you still call it hunting) off of buckets can complain about dogs babbling.



QUOTED FOR TRUTH AND WISDOM BASED ON THE FACTS OF HUMAN NATURE.

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Old Post 10-15-2018 12:51 PM
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Stan Ferrell
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 780

Re: Strike dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Guys, I am saying WE know what our dogs are doing [or should ], we know if they smell a track, it's up to the handler to minus their own dog if they are honest handlers. If they aren't honest handlers, they can play stupid and go by the RULES , it's up to each individual. Don't blame the system, blame the handler who plays the system and says they are just going by the RULES [they are ]. Honor RULES should be that HONORABLE. Dave

This will happen when DB,s call pass interference on them selves and a Center calls a shooting foul on himself. It's a competition, you paid 20 bucks and gas to be there. I have not ever seen a person minus his own dog for babbling.

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Old Post 10-15-2018 02:51 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22460

Have you ever even seen a handler accept his minus for striking his dog on a babble? We are forcing handlers to strike their dog with the current rules and then they think that they have to argue when they get minuses.

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Old Post 10-15-2018 03:23 PM
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shane_atchison
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 1009

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Have you ever even seen a handler accept his minus for striking his dog on a babble? We are forcing handlers to strike their dog with the current rules and then they think that they have to argue when they get minuses.
You cant force a handler to do nothing. If his dog is babbling he dont have to strike em, he can draw his minus just as easy without saying a word. A dog barking without being struck deserves minus, whats to argue??

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Old Post 10-15-2018 03:30 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5612

Honesty

Playing by the RULES isn't always being honest, it takes an honest man to call his dog honestly and take his minus honestly. I have minused my own dog/s more times than the judge/s have. I don't want to win by playing on a rule, I want to win by having the best dog. Yes, it is competition, but it should be honest competition and a win should be an honest win. I have witnessed some super honest handlers and I have witnessed some who would cheat their own mother. Only you can decide which one you are going to be! Make the judges job easy and call your dog for what it is actually doing, take your minus like a man, don't play the system, make the hunts HONORABLE, let the best win. Dave

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Old Post 10-15-2018 06:06 PM
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Larry Atherton
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6539

Hello Dave,

I have actually seen a couple of cases where a handler truly believed his dog was striking an honest track. We even cut the dogs across a completely chisel plowed field. The judge minused him, and I heard that guy complain how he was cheated for years.

Some people just want to believe.

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nitehunter2004
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12254

So what a few of you guys are saying is, if we call our dogs by the rules that are voted on by a rules committee that No One Knows who They Are we could be labeled “cheater”? Really!

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Old Post 10-15-2018 06:39 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5612

Tim Osborne

I am not saying that at all, what I am saying is doing the HONORABLE thing and calling your dog for what it is actually doing, taking your minus when you know it's the right thing and not playing on a RULE. Is it cheating when you don't, you be the judge on that. Dave

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Old Post 10-15-2018 07:12 PM
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nitehunter2004
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12254

Re: Honesty

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Playing by the RULES isn't always being honest, it takes an honest man to call his dog honestly and take his minus honestly. I have minused my own dog/s more times than the judge/s have. I don't want to win by playing on a rule, I want to win by having the best dog. Yes, it is competition, but it should be honest competition and a win should be an honest win. I have witnessed some super honest handlers and I have witnessed some who would cheat their own mother. Only you can decide which one you are going to be! Make the judges job easy and call your dog for what it is actually doing, take your minus like a man, don't play the system, make the hunts HONORABLE, let the best win. Dave

I was just wondering cause you said playing by the RULES isn’t always being honest!

Let’s say your on a 3 dog cast, 1st drop all dogs struck and treed, you are 20 feet from the tree an the other 2 handlers, judge says dog a bit dog b and won’t dog a scratched and calls for a vote, Now you didn’t see anything, you don’t know if it happened or not But you have to vote or be scratched, now either way you vote you are worng but by the rules you are rite!

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Old Post 10-15-2018 07:32 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5612

Tim Osborne

Your example is a case of honestly not knowing what happened and you have to vote as such. My contention is when one knows their dog done something wrong, they should man up and minus the dog themselves, RULE or no RULE. Is it cheating when you don't, not by the RULE, but is it HONORABLE if you don't? I don't want my dogs getting underserved POINTS when they do wrong. I don't sugar coat what they do, whether pleasure hunting or competition hunting. We all talk about the RULES as being HONOR RULES, let's put the HONOR in them. Dave

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Old Post 10-15-2018 07:50 PM
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nitehunter2004
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12254

I agree But how do you know that the next man isn’t being honorable?
Would you be happy having your dog scratched an wrote up because the rules said he had to vote or be scratched?
What do you do, scratch your self and not vote Or send the young man home with a dog fight on his record?

Last edited by nitehunter2004 on 10-15-2018 at 08:59 PM

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Old Post 10-15-2018 08:01 PM
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100%hunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 162

Mr Richards

do you think that if a man called his dog honestly that the rule book would be a lot thinner?

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Old Post 10-15-2018 09:58 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5612

Tim Osborne/ 100%Hunter

You just have to vote the way you honestly feel, not sure anyone's honesty would be in question, as it would be a matter of opinion. He said, she said type of situation. My references is to a man knowing exactly what his dog is doing and being man enough to admit it, be it plus POINTS or minus POINTS. You are citing a case where there is a difference of opinion on different dogs in the cast, you can only judge what you see in that case. 100% hunter, Yes I think the RULE book would be thinner if everyone called their dog for what it is doing, not what they want it to do, or playing a RULE to their advantage. Slick handlers thrive on working the RULES to win with a inferior dog. Some call this "knowing" the RULES, I call it what it is Slick, just as many of those circle trees are slick. Lol. Dave

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Old Post 10-15-2018 10:49 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5612

RULES

Let me say that UKC'S RULES are a guideline to go by, and should be followed. Like all RULES, they are a guideline and can not be a comprehensive cover all situations, chiseled in stone answer to all situations. Honor RULES we call them, let's put the HONOR back in them. Call your dog for what it's doing, take your minus like a man if you have them coming, don't hide behind a RULE. OLD JOE leaves babbling, minus him, trees slick, minus him you should know what he is doing, you feed him! Treat a competition hunt no different than a pleasure hunt, would old JOE be given the same latitude pleasure hunting, or would he get his butt corrected? Dave

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Old Post 10-15-2018 11:02 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22460

So, if your Nt Ch dog takes off after a deer, you should tell the judge to just scratch him?

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Old Post 10-15-2018 11:12 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5612

Richard Lambert

You can bet your bottom dollar on the fact I would definitely scratch my night champion dog if he left on a deer. A night champion should be broke, if it's not broke, I need to work on it before I hunt in competition. I am definitely not one of those guys that want mine leaving on a deer and switching over to a hot coon. Would you tolerate that? I will not tolerate that behavior competition hunting or pleasure hunting. Pleasure is knowing your dog is running a coon and will tree that coon and you will look at a coon/s most of the time. My time is to valuable to waste on junk, what about yours? Dave

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Old Post 10-16-2018 12:07 AM
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100%hunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 162

Mr Richards

AMEN!!! so what would you do Mr lambert?

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Old Post 10-16-2018 12:34 AM
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yadkintar
Banned

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I want mine to leave on a possum and end up on a coon. But they always just end up on a possum lol.




Tar

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Old Post 10-16-2018 12:47 AM
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shane_atchison
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 1009

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
So, if your Nt Ch dog takes off after a deer, you should tell the judge to just scratch him?
Yes, why would this even be a question. If the judge isnt familiar with the dog he might not pick up on whats happening. You dont want the dog falling off on a coon & take a chance of winning a cast he doesnt deserve..

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Old Post 10-16-2018 12:57 AM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22460

Mr Richards knows where I live. Deer runners don't last very long around here. And falling off and treeing a coon doesn't do them any good when they take themselves out of hearing.

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Old Post 10-16-2018 01:08 AM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5612

Shane

Unfortunately, there are folks who do it a lot, dog leaves on trash, switches to a hit coon. A lot of hunts are won that way, and they are stupid enough to brag about it. No thanks, I don't want no part of that deception, either competition or pleasure hunting. Win at any price mentality is why there are so many counterfeit dogs. It is so refreshing to see a real coon dog like Willy win two World Championships UKC AND AKC. Let's us know there are some still around. Lol. Dave

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