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Two vote to circle the tree. Two vote to minus the tree. How is this tree scored?
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Circle. 15 9.93%
Minus. 0 0%
Delete. 113 74.83%
The hunting judges' vote breaks the tie and determines the scoring of this tree. 23 15.23%
Total: 151 votes 100%
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8205

Two-to-Two Vote on Scoring a Tree

In a hunting judge situation, two cast members vote to circle the tree and two members vote to minus the tree. How are all points scored for dogs on this tree?

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Old Post 06-12-2018 05:13 PM
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
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Need to check the card first?

https://www.ukcdogs.com/docs/huntin...d-scorecard.pdf

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Old Post 06-12-2018 05:17 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
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Posts: 3509

,

I would go by 5e, and would love to hear if someone doesn't then why?

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4play
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Registered: Mar 2015
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quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Need to check the card first?

https://www.ukcdogs.com/docs/huntin...d-scorecard.pdf



Delete if I read score card right?

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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1724

Re: What to do!

quote:
Originally posted by barnyard01
I would like to see this situation deleted with a question mark, Leave a spectator at the tree, the card brought back to the master of hounds, & have a panel formed to return to the tree in question, & take appropriate action against the guilty parties! I'm well aware that this will likely never be implemented, but something has to be done to stop all of the games that are played with the gray area's in the rules! JMO!
There are no gray areas in that rule.

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ringtail
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2653

Re: What to do!

quote:
Originally posted by barnyard01
.......have a panel formed to return to the tree in question, & take appropriate action against the guilty parties...... but something has to be done to stop all of the games that are played with the gray area's in the rules! JMO!


If in your honest opinion you see what you believe to be a hole big enough for a coon - vote to circle
In my honest opinion I don't see what you think is a hole, but to me I see what I believe is a shadow or a dark piece of bark - vote minus

Who is the guilty party? Who is playing games with the rules? Who should "appropriate action" be levied against?

I don't see a gray area with this particular situation as described by Allen. Without reading anything extra into the question asked, the rule is pretty clear. Delete

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Tom anderson
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When will we here the answer

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SHORN
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Registered: Feb 2009
Location: wi
Posts: 135

Since the judge is hunting don't we need to know what his/her vote is to make a decision. Under the hunting judge part of the card it says the judge's decision is final. You may put a ? on the card. (16 b. 1) The judge is responsible for all scoring.

Last edited by SHORN on 06-13-2018 at 03:33 AM

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tony.beals
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Registered: Aug 2011
Location: Perrinton, Michigan
Posts: 544

5e says it all it is delete, even thou you have a hunting judge it takes a majority vote to plus, circle, or minus. Hunting judge still has to vote but his vote is equal to all others in cast.

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joey
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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3503

quote:
Originally posted by Tom anderson
When will we here the answer



Delete points:
5 (e) If half the cast votes to circle and half the cast votes to minus a tree.

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 3509

.

When you have a hunting judge and your scoring the tree here is how I have seen the better judges handle the scoring.

They look at the tree and they make up their mind and tell the cast how he plans on scoring the tree. Then if someone doesn't agree the cast can vote. The outcome of the scoring will be how the cast voted.

What I hate to see and I feel this type of judge is just asking for trouble on a cast. Is the judge who wants the cast to vote and then he tells them what his vote is. Good judges control the cast and a good judge usually is not questioned. If they are there questioned then there are rules on how to handle the question and in this case if it is a hunting judge. 5e is the answer.

We talk about knowing the rules. I think it is very important for someone that is wanting to judge to learn how to handle themselves in a knowledge way, using the rules that is fair to all. Judging means you apply the rules to the situation as you the judge sees it. Not as anyone wants it to be, but how the judge HEARD, SAW and PROCESSED the SITUTATION.

When Dale Brandenburg of Plott Fame use to have an article every month in the American Cooner on Rules. It was the first thing, I read in the magazine. It is funny how I think back to that time and the dogs and hunters we had then and how easy it was to judge in that era compared to today. The dogs have went wild in their own direction and the hunters all have lawyer degrees. The hunters that haven't finished their lawyer degree yet all feel they get cheated if they loose. All this to tree a coon and JUDGE a dog. If a mans character was getting JUDGED on these hunts, many would not get a passing grade.

Sorry I got off on a tangent. I will go back to stand by and wait for someone to ask a Garmin question and leave the rules to the knowledgeable. Funny how you start out not knowing the rules, then your work hard to learn them, then you get old and you see little value in having a dog that operates by the rules. I want my dogs better than what the rules require to get a passing grade at my house.

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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8205

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey

We talk about knowing the rules. I think it is very important for someone that is wanting to judge to learn how to handle themselves in a knowledge way, using the rules that is fair to all. Judging means you apply the rules to the situation as you the judge sees it. Not as anyone wants it to be, but how the judge HEARD, SAW and PROCESSED the SITUTATION.

When Dale Brandenburg of Plott Fame use to have an article every month in the American Cooner on Rules. It was the first thing, I read in the magazine. It is funny how I think back to that time and the dogs and hunters we had then and how easy it was to judge in that era compared to today. The dogs have went wild in their own direction and the hunters all have lawyer degrees. The hunters that haven't finished their lawyer degree yet all feel they get cheated if they loose. All this to tree a coon and JUDGE a dog. If a mans character was getting JUDGED on these hunts, many would not get a passing grade.




Agreed.

I've spent quite a bit of time in the archives reading some of Dale's old rules articles. Interesting stuff. He was the first to write those published monthly "advisor" columns. Unfortunately, your last sentence has a lot of merit. Some of those are guys many would look up to otherwise. It's always good to see those who pass the grade regardless of how every situation affects their dogs' scoring.

A good friend of mine (master of hounds) always reminds his hunters to "just score dogs guys........it's not rocket science........just score dogs."

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joey
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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3503

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
When you have a hunting judge and your scoring the tree here is how I have seen the better judges handle the scoring.

They look at the tree and they make up their mind and tell the cast how he plans on scoring the tree. Then if someone doesn't agree the cast can vote. The outcome of the scoring will be how the cast voted.



That's exactly how I do it in a $KC hunt but it doesn't go over very well in a UKC hunt. Its what they expect in the other KC but in UKC someone will accuse you of trying to run over the cast and not giving them their vote. I've seen it a couple of times.

What most judges are missing is confidence and houndmenship. If they have those two thing and a decent knowledge of the rules they make a great judge. Because they have to deal with the 21% of the people in this poll that got the rule wrong even though they were given a link that has it in black and white.

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Donell Oxley
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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Charleston,WV
Posts: 59

It is scored how the judge voted , it takes majority to over rule the judge

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 3509

.

Joey, my point is after the time is up on a tree and no coon is seen. The judge should be the first to speak up and say how he plans on scoring the tree. If the others dont agree then they can vote and have a right to do so. The vote determines how the score will be recorded. If your telling me the judge that holds a higher responsibility for things being handled correctly in the cast should start soliciting opinions on how something should be scored before he makes his opinion known. Then I see it as a problem. Nothing but a weak judge in my opinion. About the third tree of the night you will have everyone voicing their opinion on the tree and wanting to argue depending how it affects their dogs score long before time is up. Its all about the judge confidently and knowingley scoring the cast. Then let the rules decide if his ruling on a situation holds up. The rules if followed allow for many slick trees to be circled. Thats just part of the game we play. Judge just has to be consistent.

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Old Post 06-13-2018 08:31 PM
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joey
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No Bruce that's not what I'm saying, But in UKC every one has to give a vote on a tree. The judge doesn't get to cast his vote and then walk off if no one questions it. You as a cast member have to give your vote on a tree. So the judge gives his vote and then ask for the rest. You cant leave the tree until all have given their vote. Look at the remark right above yours. If you get a couple of guys like that the judge can run rough shot over tree scoring all night, because they think his vote holds more weight.

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Bruce m. Conkey
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.

Joey now I understand.

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tony.beals
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Registered: Aug 2011
Location: Perrinton, Michigan
Posts: 544

Re: Two-to-Two Vote on Scoring a Tree

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
In a hunting judge situation, two cast members vote to circle the tree and two members vote to minus the tree. How are all points scored for dogs on this tree?


I like how a simple question gets turned into a debate about how the judge should speak first. The above question is simple and requires a simple answer 4 handlers split 2 and 2 . JMO

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Old Post 06-13-2018 11:39 PM
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Tom anderson
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Would rule 16b3 even considered here it says it has to be a majority to over turn judge just asking two two isnít a majority I know one rule says delete now this kinda contradicts

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Richard Lambert
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Mr Beals, the question was answered a long ways back. Now they are just "filibustering".

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joey
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Re: Re: Two-to-Two Vote on Scoring a Tree

quote:
Originally posted by tony.beals
I like how a simple question gets turned into a debate about how the judge should speak first. The above question is simple and requires a simple answer 4 handlers split 2 and 2 . JMO


If no one commented on here after the answer was given, or discussed other aspects of it. Then no one would be on here.

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Allen / UKC
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom anderson
Would rule 16b3 even considered here it says it has to be a majority to over turn judge just asking two two isnít a majority I know one rule says delete now this kinda contradicts



Tom, my next question (later today) will hopefully eliminate any questions you have about this. Watch for it.

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Old Post 06-14-2018 04:34 PM
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Allen / UKC
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Deleted Points, is the correct answer.

Wow, I'm shocked so many missed this one. Especially, when we provided a link to the rules to look it up, if there's any question. Someone is not doing enough (rule) reading.

Rule 5(e) applies. The correct answer is; deleted points.


5. CIRCLED AND DELETED POINTS
Circle points:
(a) When dog strikes and trees on a tree or a hole in the ground where there
could be a coon, yet Judge does not see coon and no off game is seen. NOTE:
In case of running coon in a hole or place of refuge other than a tree, handler
may call dog treed. However, if not called treed, cast may proceed to general
area, and track can be considered finished if dogs, by actions either tree barking
or otherwise, show to the satisfaction of the Judge, coon to be there. One
dog must show end of trail. For dogs declared treed in a hole or tile, see Rule
3(b) or 4(g), if applicable.
(b) No dog to receive minus points for coming into tree after Judge arrives
unless a coon is seen and the dogs treeing are awarded plus points.
(c) If half the cast votes to plus and half the cast votes to circle a tree.
(d) If a squirrel is seen on a den tree (must have visible hole large enough for a coon
to enter into) or tree has a nest, or a place of refuge where a coon could be hidden.
Delete points:
(e) If half the cast votes to circle and half the cast votes to minus a tree.
(f) If dogs are trailing when time is out.
(g) If Judge has to call time out in accordance with Rule 7.
(h) When dog trees on a tree or coon previously scored. (Cast may go to tree without
dogs being declared treed, if majority of cast agree, when hunting Judges are used.)
(i) When dog that is shut out* comes into tree shut out on. Refer to 3(e).

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thomasg
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and the 23 % that missed this question will be carrying the score card this weekend . lol

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