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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17068

The Real Purpose?

What is the real purpose of the tree countdown rule? Isn't it just another rule change to force everyone to hunt a super independent or alone dog? It is another example of changing the rules to benefit the alone dogs and punish the pack dogs. The rules are being changed in order to change our dogs. Breeders have to breed dogs to win hunts so when you change the rules, you change the breed.

1. Tree countdown
2. Leash lock
3. 0ne hr hunts
4. Cast win format
5. Must "see" to scratch for fighting

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oklared
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WOULD HELP A AUTOMATIC TREE DOG

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Rolin Blues
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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Iowa
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purpose

Is to reward dogs that are FASTER on track to get more points than rest of cast. If 4 dogs are running same track & 1 gets to tree over 2 minutes sooner, then he should be given advantage of extra pts. & others don't need 2nd or 3rd tree points for being so slow. Anything that is split treed is going to get their 100 or 125 on scorecard anyway, so countdown isn't an advantage for them. Take care, Ron.

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Redneck Mafia
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Registered: Aug 2013
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The purpose is to let the dog that trees the most coons first win. By eliminating the later covering dog that in many instances these days is carrying 100 strike points but lacks the track power to back it up the coondog can win.
No leash lock lets the dog treeing coons get turned loose quicker to have the opportunity to tree more not wonder around on a leash walking to score trees of those that treed after it.
Seeing something to scratch it is no different than seeing coons to plus. We don't say well he is treeing like one is here plus it up. Same should go for everything else. As it is right now you as a judge can scratch your way to a win quite easily if you are nefarious.

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Redneck Mafia
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Gonna give a scenario...
4 dog cast. Dog A and B get treed (not judges dog) judge says those 2 are fighting I'm scratching them. 2 argue and ask for a vote. The other dog that wasn't with the 2 votes with the judge, thinks maybe they are fighting but it will get rid of these 2. Now those 2 leave they don't want to be a part of this cast anymore. There is no question to put on the card, it is strictly a judgment call and they voted 2-2 goes with the judge. Now it's a 2 dog cast. They turn dogs loose. Judge says your dog is running junk I'm scratching it. Because it takes a majority vote to overturn the judge he is now the only member left in the cast.
Thankfully most cast have honest people hunting in them but everyone of you has drawn "that guy" and right now he has to much power by loopholes left in the rules or created by advisor interpretations whether old or new.
No fight was ever seen, no off game was ever seen but he is now hunting a 1 dog cast. If you draw a non-hunting judge that has bad intentions it could be worse because you don't even get a vote and a MOH will only rule against him on rule questions not judgement calls.

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OLD TIMER
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Can you win---

your cast with circle points??

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Redneck Mafia
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Re: Can you win---

quote:
Originally posted by OLD TIMER
your cast with circle points??

No not on this side of the pond.

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HERSHSHUNTIN
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Registered: Mar 2009
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Posts: 519

Mafia

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Gonna give a scenario...
4 dog cast. Dog A and B get treed (not judges dog) judge says those 2 are fighting I'm scratching them. 2 argue and ask for a vote. The other dog that wasn't with the 2 votes with the judge, thinks maybe they are fighting but it will get rid of these 2. Now those 2 leave they don't want to be a part of this cast anymore. There is no question to put on the card, it is strictly a judgment call and they voted 2-2 goes with the judge. Now it's a 2 dog cast. They turn dogs loose. Judge says your dog is running junk I'm scratching it. Because it takes a majority vote to overturn the judge he is now the only member left in the cast.
Thankfully most cast have honest people hunting in them but everyone of you has drawn "that guy" and right now he has to much power by loopholes left in the rules or created by advisor interpretations whether old or new.
No fight was ever seen, no off game was ever seen but he is now hunting a 1 dog cast. If you draw a non-hunting judge that has bad intentions it could be worse because you don't even get a vote and a MOH will only rule against him on rule questions not judgement calls.




what about putting some of the blame on the club officials and MOH/HD--I thought they were to select knowledgeable honest trustworthy judges to judge the cast and if needed assign a non hunting judge--I believe UKC wants the judges drawn from the pool of judges know for their knowledge and honesty placed on the scorecards 1st--followed by the guides as needed , and then rest of cast members--all steps should be drawn in front of the hunters.

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Redneck Mafia
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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
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Re: Mafia

quote:
Originally posted by HERSHSHUNTIN
what about putting some of the blame on the club officials and MOH/HD--I thought they were to select knowledgeable honest trustworthy judges to judge the cast and if needed assign a non hunting judge--I believe UKC wants the judges drawn from the pool of judges know for their knowledge and honesty placed on the scorecards 1st--followed by the guides as needed , and then rest of cast members--all steps should be drawn in front of the hunters.

And sometimes all they can do is hand it to the one who knows the rules... sometimes too well.

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Richard Lambert
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Here is another scenario.. 4 dogs tree and a fight breaks out. When the cast gets there only one dog is left so 3 dogs get minused and mean dog gets plussed. There are lots of scenarios but in the end, if you have to "see" a dog to minus him then you will end up with a lot of mean dogs. There is a reason that you hear "cover late, get ate" in that other KC. Their dogs can get away with it. You have to actually "see" the fight. If you have to see a fight to scratch, the handlers all start slow walking and have to stop and listen 3 or 4 times when a fight breaks out.
Yes, no leash lock let's the independent dog get turned back loose.
Yes, tree countdown favors the independent dog. For once we agree on something.
If the proposed rule changes pass, all we will have are light broke deep and lonely dogs that can only be pleasure hunted during the week by themselves.
Then we will have to have 1 hr weeknight hunts so that hunters will have someone to hunt with.

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17068

I see/hear a lot of hunters saying that the rule changes are needed to attract the young people to UKC hunts. Well, these are the same rules used in PKC where they say that all of the young people are. But look at the numbers that show up at the local PKC hunts. How is it working out for them?

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Jack Bingham
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Here is another scenario.. 4 dogs tree and a fight breaks out. When the cast gets there only one dog is left so 3 dogs get minused and mean dog gets plussed. There are lots of scenarios but in the end, if you have to "see" a dog to minus him then you will end up with a lot of mean dogs. There is a reason that you hear "cover late, get ate" in that other KC. Their dogs can get away with it. You have to actually "see" the fight. If you have to see a fight to scratch, the handlers all start slow walking and have to stop and listen 3 or 4 times when a fight breaks out.
Yes, no leash lock let's the independent dog get turned back loose.
Yes, tree countdown favors the independent dog. For once we agree on something.
If the proposed rule changes pass, all we will have are light broke deep and lonely dogs that can only be pleasure hunted during the week by themselves.
Then we will have to have 1 hr weeknight hunts so that hunters will have someone to hunt with.



I have yet to see all these mean dogs that people talk about in $kc. I have hunted several hundred cast in both kc's i've seen more in ukc. but they are far and few between anymore.
Count down favors a quicker dog ex: 3 dog cast 1 hour ukc hunt. Dogs strike A,B,C in that order. A trees for 125 dog B backs at 4 Minutes for 75. Recut dogs strike for 25. Dog c trees 125 dog B backs at 4 minutes for 75 hunt is over.
Dog A= 225
Dog B= 250
Dog C= 175
Dog B wins by covering late on 2 trees. Under the proposed count down Dog B's score would be 150. Pretty irritating to see your dog lose to a covering idiot.
Leash lock: isn't the dog that trees more coon supposed to win. Then why would anyone want to keep there dog on a leash. Does'nt reallyy favor an independant dog it favors a dog that will go hunting and tree a coon.

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Richard Lambert
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If Dog A had backed Dog's B and C after being recut, then he would have won.
As I said, you don't "see" the mean dogs in PKC.
The dog that does the best job is supposed to win.

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Richard Lambert
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So, if PKC rules are the best, does that mean that their hunts are the best?

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Redneck Mafia
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Location: Seneca, Mo
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
So, if PKC rules are the best, does that mean that their hunts are the best?

Pkc has a warning system for suspected fighting dogs not seen and they have a leash lock. The changes under proposal do not match theirs. Your scenerio you gave with 4 dogs at the tree under current UKC none are scratched for fighting unless it is seen you can only in a situation with 2 at the tree.
The no leash lock with 125 on tree benefits the dog treeing first not deep and alone. If that dog is going so deep and it passed up coons you should have no problem treeing them behind them and before them. It would give you the ability to turn loose without having to go score other trees before doing so. This does not benefit the deep and alone type it benefits the fastest dog to tree a coon - the object of a hunt is to accumulate the highest score in the allotted time by treeing coons, hard to do that on a leash. I recall a round at the world hunt when walk time was still timeout after 15 and shine 10 minutes when Mafia spent 47 consecutive minutes on the leash. MANY have the same kind of story from local hunts up. I think the thing about leash lock in cast with deep hunting dogs or even close is the frustration of waisted time spent on the leash when dogs are unable to compete.
As far as tree countdowns the one Cheyenne proposed was anything treed after 2 minutes gets 25 until then the typical 75, 50, 25. It is also unique to UKC, it has been used successfully here, it didn't come from somewhere else, and the hunters and judges liked it nearly across the board. I worry about the multiple proposals for some changes muddies the water on why some proposed changes - a simplification and allowing the dogs treeing the most coon 1st the greater chance to win. It also places the most accountability on the dog treeing first. It better be having coons or minus points add up faster than those who come later.
It seems those who may hunt dogs that rely upon the chance of dogs/handlers getting scratched on a stupid technically and or hunt dogs that rely upon the ability of others dogs in the cast to rack up points by treeing later seem to be against any change.

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17068

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
......It seems those who may hunt dogs that rely upon the chance of dogs/handlers getting scratched on a stupid technically and or hunt dogs that rely upon the ability of others dogs in the cast to rack up points by treeing later seem to be against any change.


Oh my goodness, that is it.

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Travis O.
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I love when the subject of "tree countdown" comes up. With or without this rule, everyone wants a dog that trees first so why not apply this rule to reward that dog? There's nothing worse than listening to your dog tree it's own coon lefthanded of the other dogs but one by one the other dogs drop what they're doing and cover your dog. I've seen it time and time again with my own dog and it's very irritating when less than average dogs win the cast. If you read the play by play of most major hunts, you'll see that the dog that splits and STAYS will usually win. Richard, I know that your old dog Boone has done most of his winning by treeing coon away from the other dogs so I'm surprised that you're not a fan of the countdown rule.

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Mike Knuckols
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I see/hear a lot of hunters saying that the rule changes are needed to attract the young people to UKC hunts. Well, these are the same rules used in PKC where they say that all of the young people are. But look at the numbers that show up at the local PKC hunts. How is it working out for them?

Our last 6 hunts we haven't had anyone under 50 with the exception of 2 . Where is the youth . They are playing ball chasing girls or boys or fishing . I'm not sure if there are more than 100 youth hunters in Texas Oklahoma Arkansas or Louisiana . I don't know the answers to get young people interested . It's not the rules . There's more interest in non sanctioned or invite only hunts

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l p w
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Tree countdown

If the dogs are on the same track and one comes trees if the rest of them are more than a minute behind I wouldn't have a problem with mine getting 25 points if it's that slow jmo

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G.W. Harring
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Re: Tree countdown

quote:
Originally posted by l p w
If the dogs are on the same track and one comes trees if the rest of them are more than a minute behind I wouldn't have a problem with mine getting 25 points if it's that slow jmo


X2!

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I'm so confused, to hot to hunt. guess I will eat ice cream. Stay cool everyone.

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novicane65
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1.)The purpose to the tree countdown rule is to not reward a covering dog that can't tree a coon to save its life. If a dog backs at 450 currently it gets 75. When at best it should get 25. It didn't help tree the coon. It just came in and started treeing because the other dog was treeing.
2.) I guess I don't see what you see for mean dogs in pkc Richard. I've only seen 1, that I would classify as mean. And he was mean towards man and beast. Guys see dogs start jockeying around on tree and automatically think these dogs are mean as snakes. When they just don't like being bumped, jumped on, or blown at. I know I wouldn't like it either.
3.) I think no leash lock would help a bunch in every kc. It will help actually feel some of the big big hunting dogs back in.

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shadinc
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Re: Tree countdown

quote:
Originally posted by l p w
If the dogs are on the same track and one comes trees if the rest of them are more than a minute behind I wouldn't have a problem with mine getting 25 points if it's that slow jmo
If your dog is more than a minute behind on the same track you might as well pick him up and go home.

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Old Post 07-21-2019 01:30 AM
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l p w
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2008
Location: thomas springs tn
Posts: 378

Shadric

I agree 100% and if yours trees and mine comes from 4 minutes out to back him I shouldn't get any points but no more than 25

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Old Post 07-21-2019 12:28 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17068

quote:
Originally posted by Travis O.
I love when the subject of "tree countdown" comes up. With or without this rule, everyone wants a dog that trees first so why not apply this rule to reward that dog?............ Richard, I know that your old dog Boone has done most of his winning by treeing coon away from the other dogs so I'm surprised that you're not a fan of the countdown rule.

Travis, this rule rewards the dog that trees deep and alone. The rule we currently have and have been using since the beginning of time rewards the dog that trees first with 125 points. I have 2 deep and alone dogs but that doesn't mean that I like that style. They are no fun to hunt. I like hunting Bella. She is a close and alone dog. It doesn't bother me at all if another dog backs mine. It only means that my dog beat them.

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Old Post 07-21-2019 12:41 PM
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