Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Carrollton, GA
Posts: 216

I've always culled dogs I thought were plugs, no matter how much money I had in them- I don't ever purposefully pass them on to others, because I don't want my name associated with junk. Period.

Admittedly, I haven't been in leopards long, and I'm certainly no expert, so I talked to several people before I bred my dogs. Since I don't have a problem with culling, and I'm a firm believer in trying to breed the best you can to the best you can, ability-wise, I did the same as l.lyle posted. I bred the best male I had to the best female I had. Coat x Jewel. That's the best that I could do, given what I have. I'm definitely trying to breed for ability, regardless of color. Both my dogs are merles, and after talking to several people that have been doing this awhile, I expected to have to do some culling. There were 6 pups born in the Coat x Jewel litter. 5 males and a female. The only female was black and tan, and she would have definitely been the pup I kept, but the mom laid on her or something, and she was dead when I discovered the pups that morning. Of the 5 male pups left, 2 had a lot of white on them, so I immediately culled them. No sense taking any chances. 2 others were merle colored, and one was a black and tan. I guarantee that the 3 pups that are left are fine. They are big and healthy. They can definitely see and hear, anyway. I'm keeping the black and tan, just because most of my dogs are merle. Only time will tell if my pups got the ability of their parents like I hope...

__________________
Eric Fussell
Carrollton, GA
770-823-4703

Home of:
GRNITECH 'PR' Stoney River Hard Wood Jed (TW)
GRNITECH GRCH By Faith Coat Of Many Colors HTX (RIP)
CH Striker's Bawlin' Blitz (ALH)
'PR' Hinson's Lil Southern Belle HTX (TW)
'PR' Put 'Em Up Patches (TW)

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2008
Location: East Tenn.
Posts: 855

I agree Nortex that is the reason I abandondoned this thread. I don,t care if all my dogs are coming pink with green polka dots 5 gen. down the road as long as I am producing dogs with even more ability in the woods than I have now. I haven,t read one thing in any of those genetic books that said breed this way and improve tracking or breed this way and get better lay-up ability. Since I didn,t see anything anything about improving the hunting traits and it was all about getting the color you want I figure the books ain,t gonna help the hunter that is trying to improve the hunting ability in his dogs and move the breed forward in ability and let nature decide what color they should be. The culling process has been a part of breeding these dogs since their very beginning with McDuffie. Why people would think they can start changing the breeding process to try to eliminate the culling process without taking a chance of taking the breed backwards in ability is beyond me and then they just keep beatin the poor dead horse.It has always been common knowledge that you can breed solids to merles and cut down on culling but it has also been common knowledge that you must breed the individuals that produce the best dogs to keep improving the breed. There is a balance there and any one with good common sense can do it without a genetic manual to go by. When I need new blood in my kennel I know for a fact that I will go to someone that I think has dogs that will improve the ability of my dogs to get that new blood and its no coincidence that the same guys that have these good bloodlines don,t need a book to go by when making the matings that produce these good dogs.

__________________
Kirkland Kennels, At Stud American Leopard Hound Kirklands Hard Knockin Chug UKC Perf.Sire DNA-P Dedicated to breeding better Leopards and Walkers.

Last edited by sam kirkland on 11-04-2012 at 03:04 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois
Posts: 741

Just keep educating and let the chips fall where they will. Time will tell. I appreciate your efforts, and value all of the opinions expressed. Oh, by the way...When Thunder makes his titles...I'm getting back into Leopards again. Hope I didn't throw my books on Genetics away...

__________________
Knight's Mighty Oaks Kennels
Michael & Raquel Knight

Email Mighty Oaks Kennels at: mightyoakskennels1@gmail.com
Or call : 217-412-2709
No Sunday calls please

*Original Foundation Old Line Pedigreed Midwestern Bred Leopards

I love you, O LORD, my strength. - Psalm 18:1

Last edited by MightyOaks'Leps on 11-04-2012 at 04:36 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: TX
Posts: 197

Sam, i did not mean to disregard color in you breeding practice, rather to put greater importance on hunting abilities....intelligence, handle, nose, drive, range, mouth, tree, ect. Inform yourself about the issue of color derived problems...as Mike is attempting to help us with here....and be prepared to handle it for the preservation and IMPROMENT of the breed.

Mike, I agree with your purpose , but as they say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. I believe you will be able to help the future of the breed with the information and history you have coming.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois
Posts: 741

Most folks know the score and want to educate themselves about their dogs breeding, genetics and history to improve the breed. I have spoken to folks across the country who read these boards, but do not get involved. Keep on educating...it's not falling on deaf ears and is definatley promoting the Leopards as a breed...not a line.
In the info I sent to you is a lot of comprehensive information about the Leopards history from McDuffie forward (written documentation) and info about breeding, genetics ect. Stay the course...It'll all come out in the wash.

__________________
Knight's Mighty Oaks Kennels
Michael & Raquel Knight

Email Mighty Oaks Kennels at: mightyoakskennels1@gmail.com
Or call : 217-412-2709
No Sunday calls please

*Original Foundation Old Line Pedigreed Midwestern Bred Leopards

I love you, O LORD, my strength. - Psalm 18:1

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2008
Location: East Tenn.
Posts: 855

I realize that Corey, I don,t encourage completely disregarding colors. I have learned from the experience of actually breeding dogs together that if you breed a merle that has the double merle characteristics visible as in a lot of white or or lack of pigment in the nose or albinoism to another merle you will have problems and have to cull heavy to get the pups out of this litter that are usable. However I have also learned from actually breeding dogs together that I can take two merles that don,t show the lack of pigment and/or albino traits and breed them together with usually not over two and sometimes no pups that require culling and I am a strict culler. I have seen pups pictured on here by some supposed knowledgable breeders that I know I would have culled so I know I am strict on my culling. As I said earlier and it seemed to fall on deaf ears there is a balance and common sense should be followed. I know when John McDill bred Bell to Jug he knew that he would likely have a pup or two that would need culled. I also figure that he weighed the good and bad of the cross.On one side he wanted to make the very best mating he could on his female and i,m sure there were solid colored studs available just as they are now.After weighing the positives and negatives of making the cross he evidently felt his best chance of getting the best performers was to breed to Jug.I know all breeders that have been doing this for years do this same thing. Anyone that does not have the heart to cull does not need to be breeding dogs that have merle in their genetic make-up.I always take time and study and plan each mating I make in my dogs very carefully. I never have a litter that I have to cull a big percentage of. I do breed for performance first but as I said I will not breed a obvious double merle to a merle to get that end.I do however breed two merles together that I am satisfied in my own mind that neither is double merle. I know there are several very knowledgable breeders that do this same thing. The dogs I produce speak for themselves as I do produce a percentage of good ones that I am happy with and so are my customers.I feel I probably put a whole lot more thought and planning into the matings I make than a lot of these people that have jumped on the genetic book bandwagon. Do I think these genetic people will produce less pups that have to be culled for albino traits? Yes I do. Do I think people that only breed solid to merle and never deviate have the same chance of improving their dogs hunting traits as guys that use well planned and thought out merle to merle mating when it is necessary to get the best producing female bred to the right male to produce the best performing pups.No I do not. Do I think that 5 years down the road that the well planned and carefully thought out merle to merle mating I have made will suddenly blow up in my face and cause a high percentage of my pups to suddenly become albinos or deaf and blind? Absolutely Not. These dogs have been around a long time.A lot of the old breeders bred their dogs as I do and many also breed this way today. If these horror stories were gonna happen they already would have. I believe in using some common sense and I am a big believer in education but I also believe that educating should be left to the ones that are qualified to teach. These genetic books are good to help as far as getting less albino pups but they are of no practical help in producing a better performing dog in the woods.Once a good practical knowledge of what causes the cull pups has been learned then a breeder should start looking at how to improve his strain of dogs hunting traits since learning what causes the albinoism in merles is only scratching the surface as far as becoming a good breeder.To stay in one spot and keep showing different documentation that only teaches one thing [,that one thing being what causes albinoism in merles ] is likened to going through first grade over and over again to someone that has a goal of being a knowledgable breeder. That is all I meant by beating the dead horse. If educating is what is going on here why don,t we go ahead and start second grade. Educate beginner breeders on how to identify the dogs that would be the best reproducers as far as hunting traits and how to study the pedigrees to see the patterns of how certain crosses within bloodlines seem to throw the best performers and why. This is practical knowledge that will improve the breed. If all the education these beginner breeders get is how to prevent albino traits from popping out in merles how are they going to be expected to improve on the dogs they are going to start breeding or for that matter even maintain them as good as they are?

__________________
Kirkland Kennels, At Stud American Leopard Hound Kirklands Hard Knockin Chug UKC Perf.Sire DNA-P Dedicated to breeding better Leopards and Walkers.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois
Posts: 741

Genetics is not simply just about color. It is the study and practical use for animal breeding based on hereditary of the parents and of the ancestors of any given line. When you are mating two animals together, in this case dogs, you are pairing genes, not simply mating dogs. How many chromosomes are derived from the Dam...how many from the Sire...what traits am I placing in my lines...what traits will be inherited...which ones will be dominant...which ones will be recessive...should I outcross or line breed...if I line breed what traits am I fixing into my line...how many generations will it take me to remove unwanted traits from my line...it is a proven science that is applied to all aspects of superior lines of proven winners in all animals and has been used to modify or change existing traits to form modern lines in animals from ancient lines. Genetic sampling also identifies inherited diseases in animals and gives us a heads up to side step or avoid those issues. It's not simply just about color, although it can also identify markers in the merle gene. I simply don't understand the argument dismissing genetic studies by some guys concerning folks who want to learn all aspects of inheritable chromosomes and the pairing of genes when they breed, other than a lack of comprehension about genetics and their implications. If folks want to educate themselves in all aspects of dog breeding they should be appauded, not denigrated. It's not healthy for the association or the breed in general.

__________________
Knight's Mighty Oaks Kennels
Michael & Raquel Knight

Email Mighty Oaks Kennels at: mightyoakskennels1@gmail.com
Or call : 217-412-2709
No Sunday calls please

*Original Foundation Old Line Pedigreed Midwestern Bred Leopards

I love you, O LORD, my strength. - Psalm 18:1

Last edited by MightyOaks'Leps on 11-05-2012 at 07:07 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2012
Location:
Posts: 43

I was under the impression, that the breeding education (in this thread, specifically addressing merle X merle) was being encouraged not to discredit the breeding of the past greats, but to protect to breeding of the future--especially if the Leopard continues to grow in popularity. I would put that last part all in capital letters, if it didn't seem obnoxious to do so

Because, see, that's what happens when a breed grows in popularity! It's happened to EVERY dog that has gained ground and come out into the "mainstream", if you will, and it has happened to EVERY horse that has done so. Take a Paint horse, for example: somewhere along the line, people started breeding for color patterns and disregarding conformation, hoof quality, mind, etc. Now we have Paints all over the place with terrible feet and you see it all the time. Oh sure, they look beautiful and usually work decent too--but ask any good Farrier what he/she thinks about their feet! Most of the time, their hooves are junk and people keep breeding 'em anyway...it's the Horseshoer's fault they aren't sound, right? Obviously, I could bore everyone (unless some of you fancy horses?) with comparisons, such as that. It's all over the horse world, with any breed that earned a moment in the spotlight, because unfortunately, not everyone takes breeding with the responsibility they should.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, that responsibility = everything one can consider! Personally, I think the only animal that should be intentionally bred has to pass EVERY test. But I'm a picky one, when it comes to me making the decision. My own Paint horse passes all tests, except for his feet and therefore, he's a gelding Shame too, because I haven't ridden too many horses that have a more solid mind and work ethic than him...and he sure wears a darn pretty coat

Now, back to dogs and Leopards particularly, I ask: don't we have enough quality dogs available, that someone like me can wait to seek out a solid-colored male for breeding? Why should I take the risk, breeding my female to another merle? If I was advised by some of you that are more experienced (and I wouldn't breed her without some advice!) that a good cross could be made with another certain merle male, sure, I might go for it. But why not wait and seek out a solid-colored male to be on the "safe" side, so to speak? And as was mentioned already, I might have a litter of pups that turn out with minimal or no need for culling--but what will those pups carry? Maybe the pups I sell are good-to-go, but what am I putting out there for other people to work with? Other people that might not be as serious about:

1.) doing their own research--yes, with books and the internet
2.) "milking" other experienced Leopard breeders for all their worth in knowledge and history

The fact is, once I sell that pup, it's future is out of my control. And if, as I hope, my Leopards impress people around these parts, they might be in high demand and it's a big responsibility that the pups I sell represent the breed to the best ability possible.

I know I'm thinking way ahead of time here, but I'm quite concerned about it. I'd hate to look back when I'm 60 years old and see Leopards that aren't as "great as they used to be", because they got pulled out of the woods and mucked up. I've already met some people that think that has begun. So, I don't think it's neurotic to worry about it. I don't know one breed of animal it hasn't happened to, once they gained in popularity...success can be a double-edged sword.

Just my little thoughts, for what they're worth...which probably isn't much yet But I do think this thread is valuable and I do think it's information worthy of active thoughts and discussion! And that goes for every single post so far.

I've decided I am going to have my pup and any future dogs I own tested. I just talked about it today, to the owner of the breeding stable I manage! He says it will only cost me $25-45 a dog, if we send it to the same University we send our horses' samples too. I figure, that's well worth the price. Although my pups probably won't appreciate me ripping their hairs out to send to the lab

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2012
Location:
Posts: 43

...I'm looking at my little Leopard pup as I type, and I have to laugh! Her thoughtful expression seems to say: sure are counting your chickens before they hatch! We haven't even been to the woods yet!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

I think Appearance should always take a back seat to performance in any working breed. Anything less is a recipe for disaster. In the past lots of hunting breeds have suffered at the hands of the AKC. show folks. The Merle gene in the leopards adds an additional challenge for a breeder to consider.

I think in the past a good percentage of the guys that made a merle on merle cross felt that if they culled the pups with excessive white, blindness or deafness that they were doing the best they could for the breed. What they didnt in some cases know is that the pup they sold that maybe just had a fleck of white in one eye was a double merle that is just as likely to throw a high percentage of pups with deformity as the pup from that cross that was blind or deaf, both carried the MM. Lots of these double merle dogs may mature to be fine dogs but if crossed with another double by an unknowing backyard breeder they will produce a litter with a high percentage of deformed pups and the cycle continues.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: s.c.
Posts: 6984

quote:

---

Originally posted by frog
found another great article for first time breeders and beginners. or folks just wanting to learn a little.

http://www.eyecareforanimals.com/an...merle-gene.html

---

Last edited by l.lyle on 12-18-2012 at 04:18 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois
Posts: 741

My Uncle Louis lives in Southern Mo. He had a pair of dogs named Sam and Jim from a family line of dogs that were bred for years -good dog to good dog between neighbors. The pups were never sold...just given away to friends and neighbors who used them for stock, protection, hunting whatever ran or treed ect. The pups were uniform in type and size and called curs. They probably looked more like the old time Leps. The litter colors were black brindle, leopard spotted, and white with lemon spots in the same litter. Most of them had glass eyes. The original parentage was redbone, catahoula and running walker.
Robert Kemmer told us that when men wanted Leopards down south that they would breed a bluetick with an austrailian shepherd. In the old days, men bred for whatever they wanted out of a dog, regardless of lineage. Cliff England talked about getting a mouse colored female out of the hills, along with a family line of Black Diamond Cur and adding it into his lines of Leps. Alot of the parentage of the dogs he added in was unknown. I have him in a taped interview talking to Dad about the origin of the Leopards.

__________________
Knight's Mighty Oaks Kennels
Michael & Raquel Knight

Email Mighty Oaks Kennels at: mightyoakskennels1@gmail.com
Or call : 217-412-2709
No Sunday calls please

*Original Foundation Old Line Pedigreed Midwestern Bred Leopards

I love you, O LORD, my strength. - Psalm 18:1

Last edited by MightyOaks'Leps on 12-15-2012 at 04:39 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Brandon MS
Posts: 240

Frog, respectfully, as for me and the fellas I hunt with looks have very little to do with what yanks our chain. Natural ability and good mouths are not negotiable but pretty much anything else is. In fact, the line we hunt produces a wide variety of "looks." Obviously we all have a preference when it comes to looks but in my book they all look alike in the dark! My buddy Randy Mc says it well "He can be pink with purple polka dots and bark out of his backside for all I care as long as he trees coons right!" Happy Hunting!

John Williams

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2010
Location:
Posts: 42

Sam great post. I agree with you we should breed for ability not color.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Brandon MS
Posts: 240

Thanks Frog. I understand what the thread was "originally" about. I was just responding to your statement that "now it's all about looks." More specifically, I was responding to the word "all" in the statement. Looks will and should be part of the formula no matter ones preference, but I would bet the farm that most conscientious Leopard breeders are also trying to improve the breed and are attempting to produce natural ability, personality, hunting style and looks just as you say you are. Problem is, the ideal Leopard "look" has always been somewhat of a moving target as evidenced by the old photos. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood your comment but I continue to disagree with it as I understand it.

John Williams

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: s.c.
Posts: 6984

Also, please forgive me if a regular blue eyed puppy pops out now and again. I did not mean to talk so long about it but I got to running off at the mouth about it. Lets keep it to ABC's ,- white sucks,: for educational purposes.

Last edited by l.lyle on 12-18-2012 at 07:31 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Winchester. Tennessee
Posts: 116

Thanks l.lyle,
Somebody finally put it in a way this old dummy can understand.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: owingsville, ky
Posts: 35

so if i understand this dilution thing the blue merle is a diluted black dog. and the merle with tan trim is a diluted back and tan leopard. its kinda the same the as with dobermans i used to breed them you can get fawns and blue which in all reality are just reds and blacks with diluted color. you could also keep breeding the blues and fawns and sometimes get a white doberman which in dobermans can be a lethal thing to do as they can have so many health problems cant be in the sun and can be over aggressive. But just like the merle leopards are the white doberman is something alot of people want. correct me if I'm wrong but this seems to be the answer i came to from reading over some of the articles posted. I wonder has anyone in the leopard community tried to breed out or breed for certain colors other than leopard spotted. has anyone tried to breed for solid blacks or for black and tans and breed the other colors out of there line. i know this has been done in other breeds just curious is all I know color dont matter to most but it would be interesting to see if anyone tried this. i know in english breeds there are some who have bred blues out of there stock by continuing to breed reds to reds. Ive also seen in walkers white bred almost out of them and also seen black bred out making whats called a lemon spotted walker that looks alot like a red tick without ticks.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2009
Location: Fletcher, Ok
Posts: 1510

The one thing I want the new comers to know, is the Merle to Merle is an issue for several reasons but as my buddy frogs has seen in his research. When it comes to the "to much white" you can breed a merle to a non merle and still get a pup or two to show up thats almost all white its a fact and it happens it's Life and you never know whats going to pop up. The old timers made crosses that fit what they had at the time or a cross they could get to if the other dog wasn't to far off.
Folks have and do bred for certain looks and certain colors at one time I had all Black Leopards in my kennel but now I've decided to go the Merle Color with an all Black one to cross back and forth on. JMO

__________________
John Cox
580 284 8378

Last edited by JohnCox on 07-03-2013 at 07:27 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Winchester. Tennessee
Posts: 116

John, did you ever make a black x black cross? Black, not black and tan. If so, what colors did you get? What does one usually get with a black and tan x black and tan cross?

Last edited by possumukc on 07-02-2013 at 03:27 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2009
Location: Fletcher, Ok
Posts: 1510

a Black on a Black and Tan cross it will give you Black and Black and Tan Pups and when you cross two Black and Tans you will get all Black and Tans I've done it and so has Jason Abbott now thats not to say a different colors might show up but I would bet most times thats what you will get. I crossed my Cain dog on a Black and tan and she had 9 pups 3 Black ones and the rest were Black and Tans and I crossed him on my Patches female which is a dark Merle and she had 12 pups and I belive there was three Black ones and the rest were dark Merles and Cain was all Black. In the future I will be making a all Black cross and then we will see what we get.

__________________
John Cox
580 284 8378

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged