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bowling
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2008
Location: London, KY
Posts: 1866

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Competition coonhunting is a complicated sport. There are so many scenarios that can happen and one simple rule cannot fit all of the scenarios. It can get very confusing. Especially for a simple mind like mine. These days you have 4 dogs doing 4 different things.
just like the Voting in Florida when lawyers get involved there are no rules when lawyers are involved want be long until lawers are allowed in casts or I should say will be required in casts in world hunt events. Just wait and see.

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Old Post 11-14-2018 09:24 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 15123

Some handlers now can argue and twist facts just like a lawyer.

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Old Post 11-14-2018 09:58 PM
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Toad Hill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: missouri
Posts: 671

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
Also , if a dog growls on the lead i can assure u he'll growl and or do more on a tree when he is in adrenaline mode.


How can you be sure of this? YOU CAN"T BE. Speculation on your part, and that is not scratchable. Speculation only holds up in the eyes of the speculator. Now here is something that you can be sure of, a growling on the lead dog of mine won't be scratched. There is no interference, and the is no attempt to fight. Rules just don't allow what you are suggesting. Heck, if we can allow speculation, everyone else's dogs ran a deer, treed in a hole, babbled all the way to that tree we know was slick when they got there. Oh yeah, speculation can be really fun to hunt with huh?




Rock ,
I havent seen one yet that growled on the leash that wouldnt throw down on a tree at some point. especially in adrenaline mode. You can sugar coat it on here all you want you wont convince me. Guess will have to agree to disagree.
As far as the speculation part , that wasnt my idea or thought. That was Allens . He was the one the who mentioned scratching dogs for speculation of running trash not me. You need to talk to him to clarify in more detail. He just so happened to enlighten me on the subject and for that i am thankful.
Thanks !

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Old Post 11-15-2018 05:02 PM
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Robert Johnson
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 3709

quote:
Originally posted by Toad Hill
Rock ,
I havent seen one yet that growled on the leash that wouldnt throw down on a tree at some point. especially in adrenaline mode. You can sugar coat it on here all you want you wont convince me. Guess will have to agree to disagree.
As far as the speculation part , that wasnt my idea or thought. That was Allens . He was the one the who mentioned scratching dogs for speculation of running trash not me. You need to talk to him to clarify in more detail. He just so happened to enlighten me on the subject and for that i am thankful.
Thanks !



Saw two in my days that growl every time they are leashed up when another dog gets close. Never once were they scratched, or even suspected of fighting. Sometimes its a territory thing that excitement brings on by knowing they are getting turned loose, or the fact they think another is to close to their provider. Regardless of which, they didn't fight, and speculation is just that. Speculation is not acceptable anywhere else, and its not in the woods either. If you here a fight, and only two dogs are there, with only two heard, sure scratch them. If four are there, and only two are heard, you can not speculate on which two it was. If you can, I want to judge every cast I hunt from this day forward. The top threats to win the cast will last long. It already happens this way at times, but taking the speculation approach back to the MOH should never hold any weight, unless you KNOW that the two scratched are the culprits at fault. I don't think Allen told you can speculate which dogs or dogs were involved in the above mentioned way. If he did, so be it. He can be mistaken like everyone else at times, but the rule just does not allow for it in the above situation. If it does, its new to me, and I just may be hunting wrong all these years.

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Old Post 11-20-2018 01:47 PM
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Robert Johnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 3709

quote:
Originally posted by Toad Hill
Rock ,
I havent seen one yet that growled on the leash that wouldnt throw down on a tree at some point. especially in adrenaline mode. You can sugar coat it on here all you want you wont convince me. Guess will have to agree to disagree.
As far as the speculation part , that wasnt my idea or thought. That was Allens . He was the one the who mentioned scratching dogs for speculation of running trash not me. You need to talk to him to clarify in more detail. He just so happened to enlighten me on the subject and for that i am thankful.
Thanks !



Saw two in my days that growl every time they are leashed up when another dog gets close. Never once were they scratched, or even suspected of fighting. Sometimes its a territory thing that excitement brings on by knowing they are getting turned loose, or the fact they think another is to close to their provider. Regardless of which, they didn't fight, and speculation is just that. Speculation is not acceptable anywhere else, and its not in the woods either. If you here a fight, and only two dogs are there, with only two heard, sure scratch them. If four are there, and only two are heard, you can not speculate on which two it was. If you can, I want to judge every cast I hunt from this day forward. The top threats to win the cast will last long. It already happens this way at times, but taking the speculation approach back to the MOH should never hold any weight, unless you KNOW that the two scratched are the culprits at fault. I don't think Allen told you can speculate which dogs or dogs were involved in the above mentioned way. If he did, so be it. He can be mistaken like everyone else at times, but the rule just does not allow for it in the above situation. If it does, its new to me, and I just may be hunting wrong all these years.

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Old Post 11-20-2018 01:47 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 15123

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
..... If it does, its new to me, and I just may be hunting wrong all these years.....

According to Allen G, if the aggressor is not known, you scratch all dogs involved. There is no speculation here. If there are three or four dogs treeing and a fight breaks out, they all get scratched. Now that is what UKC's "official interpretation" is.
Kinda like the off game thing. If you "know" that they are running off game you minus them. If you "think" that they are running off game you don't. But according to Mr Gingerich, you don't always have to see the off game to "know" that it is off game. I don't know where the "speculation" comes from.

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Old Post 11-20-2018 02:30 PM
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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3169

Anything you don't witness by seeing is speculation.

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Old Post 11-20-2018 04:50 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 15123

Oh my goodness "anything" ? You don't know what a dog fight sounds like?

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Old Post 11-20-2018 06:37 PM
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Robert Johnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 3709

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
According to Allen G, if the aggressor is not known, you scratch all dogs involved. There is no speculation here. If there are three or four dogs treeing and a fight breaks out, they all get scratched. Now that is what UKC's "official interpretation" is.
Kinda like the off game thing. If you "know" that they are running off game you minus them. If you "think" that they are running off game you don't. But according to Mr Gingerich, you don't always have to see the off game to "know" that it is off game. I don't know where the "speculation" comes from.



you are missing the involved part. Not one person on this board has actually read what I have said. There are four dogs and only two get tied up, and you can't see them. You and everybody else knows that only two are involved. Scratch them all? That's a joke. I don't care who says otherwise that IS TOTALLY WRONG. The book say INVOLVED. You already know that two are not involved. I guess if we go into the bank and 5 people are in there, we all get locked up because we were there, but the cops couldn't see us, when they knew only one is INVOLVED. TOTAL B.S. No other way to put it. You punish all dogs because of two. Kinda sounds like the congress is making the rules.

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2009/2010/2011/2012 AKC GA. State Leader and Supreme Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

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Old Post 11-20-2018 06:56 PM
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Allen / UKC
Administrator

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8278

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
According to Allen G, if the aggressor is not known, you scratch all dogs involved. There is no speculation here. If there are three or four dogs treeing and a fight breaks out, they all get scratched. Now that is what UKC's "official interpretation" is.
Kinda like the off game thing. If you "know" that they are running off game you minus them. If you "think" that they are running off game you don't. But according to Mr Gingerich, you don't always have to see the off game to "know" that it is off game. I don't know where the "speculation" comes from.




Almost; but when my name is used I want to be clear. When there are only two dogs at the tree, it's easy to determine who is involved. When there's more than two, knowing which ones are involved becomes a different story and generally results in a no-call.

"Speculation" and "obvious" are, by definition, two very different words that have been used in debate as it relates to dogs running deer or fighting without actually seeing it. One is; rumor, gossip, assumption, guesswork, supposition, hearsay. The other is; clear, apparent, evident, recognizable, observable.

Myself, I'd never scratch a dog for running deer or fighting based on speculation.

Here is the article that was written on the topic long before my time.

Does the Judge Have to See It to Score It?
It is a common misconception amongst some hunters that a Judge must actually see an offense take place before he or she can make a ruling. That is simply not true. Indeed, there are times when you canít tell whatís happening without being able to see it first hand. But on flip side, there are many, many situations where you can tell exactly whatís happening without seeing it first hand.

By the very nature of the sport of nite hunting, most of what goes on comes to us on the night air as we stand completely in the dark. To a first-time hunter, none of it makes sense. Yet an experienced houndsmen can tell you with almost certain conviction exactly what is happening. Thatís why it is so important for club officers and licensed officials to make every effort to appoint qualified individuals to judge casts. Most of what happens requires a judgment call based on experience.

Do you have to see a dog fight to scratch two dogs for being involved in one? Certainly not. You know a dog fight when you hear one. If there is no question as to which dogs are involved, they must both be scratched. Could the aggressor be determined without seeing who started the fight? That call is more risky. I would have to say that no, the aggressor could not be determined without witnessing the offense. But the fact that a fight did take place and the fact that there is a provision for scratching those involved when the aggressor is not known, obligates a Judge to make that call.

Just like you donít have to watch a dog leave a tree to minus them for it. If, as a Judge, you are certain of what is happening, it must be scored accordingly. Thatís what judging is. If you are not certain, hold off until you are. Some handlers will attempt to pressure a judge into making a premature decision. Thatís just as bad as not making a decision that you are certain about. Do you have Nite Champion dogs burning off game out of the country? You donít have to see the deer to scratch dogs for running it. Make the call if you are certain.

Judging is not for everyone and if you are not confident enough to make the decisions that you know are correct, or if you are not confident enough to hold off making decisions until you do know them to be correct, then you should refrain from accepting the responsibility to judge. If you have been appointed as a Judge and cannot rightfully fulfill those duties, take your cast to the Master of Hounds and address your concerns with him or her. Do not take it upon yourself to pass the card to someone else in the cast. Let the licensed official do that.

If you are confident with your experience as a coon hunter and your ability to make decisions, then take pride in the fact that the club has confidence in you! Draw on your experience and score situations accordingly.

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Old Post 11-20-2018 07:29 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 15123

That is not fair having the original article. Kinda like bringing a gun to a fist fight. We were just argueing and you pulled out a pistol. I hate argueing with you.

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Old Post 11-20-2018 07:49 PM
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Allen / UKC
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I'm not arguing with anyone about it. It just seems like we can't have a civil discussion about it.

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Old Post 11-20-2018 08:01 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 7394

I don't see what all the fuss is about ! Your dog ain't tied to him all he has got to do is back up and get out the way !! On the other hand Sombody slaps me we still gonna be rollen when Allen gets there bite , scratch , pull hair I am probly going to be the aggressor lol.



Tar

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Old Post 11-20-2018 08:50 PM
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
I don't see what all the fuss is about ! Your dog ain't tied to him all he has got to do is back up and get out the way !! On the other hand Sombody slaps me we still gonna be rollen when Allen gets there bite , scratch , pull hair I am probly going to be the aggressor lol.



Tar



You're still good for now, because I'm only speculating that you're attempting to stir up trouble. But when it becomes obvious, I'm dropping the hammer on 'Ole Tarbaby! lol.

On a side note; you got your gobbler in the crock pot yet?

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Old Post 11-20-2018 09:39 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 7394

Not stirring up trouble been hunting in these hunts over 40 yrs even in some big $$$ ones most dogs that are hunted in competition hunts regularly learn how to stay out of trouble. I counted I have only seen and had to scratch dogs 4 times in all those years for fighting. I think some of these dog fights Sombody told Sombody that told Sombody there was a mean dog on their cast. Most times that comes from not being able to own up to just getting beat simple as that. How many you seen bossman that got scratched ? And I was talking about if I was a dog lol.



Mrs tar has had me putting up Christmas lights our thanksgiving is Friday with the kids hope you have a good one bossman.


Tar

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Old Post 11-20-2018 09:50 PM
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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
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Posts: 1978

Tar

You really aren't a threat anymore, come on now, that briarvine had you beat fair and square, just like that barb wire fence done me in the other night. Lol. Dave

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Old Post 11-21-2018 05:48 AM
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