Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Mercer PA
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I just get to wondering sometimes how successful the idea of linebreeding is when I look in my yard. I have two hounds here that are very closely related. The male dog's mother and the females father were littermates and the other side of the pedigree is very closely related also.

MALE DOG: Probably 75 lbs, red brindle, not a spec of white, tall lanky dog, squall on track and open but not every breath, good locate, stand on the tree not moving treedog with a good mouth. Deep hunting dog that will go forever till he trees a coon.

FEMALE DOG: probably 40 lbs, very dark dog with just a little brindle, a little bit of white, short stocky dog, chop mouth and runs it wide open, poor locate, jumping around treedog with a quiet mouth, closer hunting dog that will make a 500 yard loop and come back if not struck.

Both have been straight as a string from the get go, easy to start, nice personality dogs that go hunting when cut.

I am not a breeder and if I was I would outcross, but if I would breed these dogs how can I know what to expect.....??? These are a tightly related couple of dogs that have some very different characteristics......is linebreeding really that successful??? LARRY ATHERTON this is all you buddy!!!

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Ron Ashbaugh
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Linebreeding is only as good or bad as the breeding pair utilized, regardless of how they are put together from a pedigree standpoint. Most dogs will produce a wide variance, even from the standard deviation found throughout the pedigree. Unfortunately, very few dogs reliably produce two or three standard deviation above the mean when compared to the total population of stud dogs utilized. Same can be said about females. If they are loosely bred, they'll generally produce the same.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
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Hey Briar, I ain't Larry but I can put some perspective on this.

There is variation in everything, what line breeding does is decrease that amount of variation. The tighter line bred the line is the less variation there is. That doesn't mean variation is gone.

You said yourself that both your dogs were pleasure to handle, easy to start, and no trash and hunt good. That's pretty consistant right there.

Also it depends on what traits are line bred on. In other words, if they didn't care about size, only ability then you would have much more variation in size, even from a very good linebred cross, than you would the things they used as a selection tool. Selection is still very very VERY important, even in line breeding. So say a breeder only used track speed, hunt, accuracy, and handling. Well you would get less variation there, but maybe huge variation in size, mouth, color, whatever WASN'T selected for.

In all you will get a much more predictable product from a good linebred cross than an outcross, but that is only in regard to the traits selected for. Now by default you will get a little less in all traits, but the big thing will be in what was selected for.

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i have also seen closely knit linebreeding come full circle and the faults come out by ten fold.
that is when to outcross, jmo.
kelley

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Ron,

The most important tool breeders have is selection, selection, and selection.

The breeding models are just tools to get us closer to our goals. If you want to decrease variability then inbreeding or linebreeding is a better tool to use than outcrossing. If you want to increase variability than outcrossing would be the tool to use. If you really want to increase variability than crossbreeding may better suit your goals.

All breeders should have a goal. They should all know what traits they desire in a hound, which traits they can live with or without, and those traits that can't live with.

Then they need to choose what breeding model best suits their goal and traits they desire.

Then they need choose which selection tools they want to use.

As Rip stated just because a dog looks like a linebred dog on paper doesn't mean it is a linebred dog on traits.

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I've seen littermates be complete opposites in traits so we know it has to pup up in linebreeding.

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Check out the other pups from the litter and see what they are like

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You're getting some good factual stuff here. Also, the dogs you described sound like they are themselves crossbreeds so you can expect variation based on that as well. Several generations may be required to standardize them but where will you get a closely related dog that is not too close? Are the two you have Plott X Redbone, for examle? If you have to go out, which side would you go to?

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Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:

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Originally posted by Larry Atherton
As Rip stated just because a dog looks like a linebred dog on paper doesn't mean it is a linebred dog on traits.

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Ron Ashbaugh
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Why am I 5 inches taller and 30 pounds lighter than my brother who has dark hair and I have light curley hair? I also am consistently employed and he goes from job to job with long durations of unemployment in between. I have no reason to think he's not my brother. We have the EXACT same family members. I wonder why?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Briar
Now this brings me to my next question. Can't I make a cross, with totally unrelated dogs, and be linebreeding on their hunt characteristics?? Is that a successful route to go? It is what I want to do in the future.

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Wow !! Boy do I disagree with the Above Statement !!!

Trates are Trates and if Proper selection is made in a Breeding Pair these "Trates" will Carry thru on Total Out Crosses as long as if Both of the Pair and Their Families Really Have "IT"

Tracking, Location, Treeing, Will to Catch are Traites that you/we Breed for ..

We have made Alot of Cross breedings But "Selection for the Next Breeding is Critical"

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Line breeding doesn't pan out in the real world anyway, atleast not with hounds. Maybe with livestock but not with animals that have to think.
Stylish Harry wasn't line bred, neither was Nite Heat Abby. Rat Attack wasn't, neither was Sackett Jr. Mojo sure as heck ain't line bred. It goes on and on. How many successful studs were a product of true line breeding? If there was ANY real answer to these breeding questions, someone would stand out for their success but in fact, while there are those who have proven to be better breeders than most, there are none that can be counted on to beat anyone else time after time. Look at the pedigrees of our most consistent winners and reproducers. Neither is dominated by line breeding. I agree that line breeding makes the most sense, it just doesn't prove out in real life.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Line breeding doesn't pan out in the real world anyway, atleast not with hounds. Maybe with livestock but not with animals that have to think.
Stylish Harry wasn't line bred, neither was Nite Heat Abby. Rat Attack wasn't, neither was Sackett Jr. Mojo sure as heck ain't line bred. It goes on and on. How many successful studs were a product of true line breeding? If there was ANY real answer to these breeding questions, someone would stand out for their success but in fact, while there are those who have proven to be better breeders than most, there are none that can be counted on to beat anyone else time after time. Look at the pedigrees of our most consistent winners and reproducers. Neither is dominated by line breeding. I agree that line breeding makes the most sense, it just doesn't prove out in real life.

---

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quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
Line breeding doesn't pan out in the real world anyway, atleast not with hounds. Maybe with livestock but not with animals that have to think.
Stylish Harry wasn't line bred, neither was Nite Heat Abby. Rat Attack wasn't, neither was Sackett Jr. Mojo sure as heck ain't line bred. It goes on and on. How many successful studs were a product of true line breeding? If there was ANY real answer to these breeding questions, someone would stand out for their success but in fact, while there are those who have proven to be better breeders than most, there are none that can be counted on to beat anyone else time after time. Look at the pedigrees of our most consistent winners and reproducers. Neither is dominated by line breeding. I agree that line breeding makes the most sense, it just doesn't prove out in real life.

---

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Jim,

You and i have been down this road before. You base a dog's worth on his nite hunt records alone. There is nothing wrong with that. It is what you want.

I, however, base a dog's worth on different set of standards. My standards are no less right or wrong than your standards. They are simply different standards.

I have no desire to own a stud dog. I have no desire to win a World Hunt. I simply want a style of dog that suits me that I don't have to go through a pile of dogs to get.

I have achieved my goal for many generations. So I will have to respectfully disagree that a breeder can achieve their goals by using linebreeding as a tool. By the way, that doesn't mean that other tools are any less useful either.


Everyone else,

I sure wish everyone would look beyond the fact that I often reference linebreeding as a breeding model. The major point I try very hard to make regarding breeding dogs is SELECTION is the most important tool! Fact is very few breeders take the time to make use of good selection tools as a habit.

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Larry Atherton

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