Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

Rip
I think your missing the fact that the judge saw him on the tree when he arrived at the tree so declared treed or not it's to late. Score it as seen. This isn't fantasy coon hunting. The reality already got the dog regardless weather he was leashed or not.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Oh my goodness, y'all wanted Allen to answer and when he did you won't accept it. You wanted an answer but because it isn't the answer you wanted, you continue to question it. I guess that this is just human nature.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Deputy, Indiana
Posts: 422

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, y'all wanted Allen to answer and when he did you won't accept it. You wanted an answer but because it isn't the answer you wanted, you continue to question it. I guess that this is just human nature.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9197

More in-depth explanation may help but Rip does a good job and is spot on with his remarks. If you try to score the dog any other way, you're going to run into "inconsistency" problems. One of those is using the logic that if the judge instructs to handle dogs; it means that the dog WILL somehow be scored on this tree even if it leaves before it can be handled. See my last paragraph below.

THE only dogs that are eligible for scoring on a tree are those that are handled at the tree that is being scored. There is one exception, as Chey noted. Champs or Grands are scratched for running, treeing or molesting off game, which does not require a dog to be handled to be scored for such. In this case, 6f does use the word "seen". 4h does not use the word seen.

I think most of us can agree that a dog, that has been declared treed, will be minused their tree position but their strike points remain live if they leave their tree before they are handled, right? The same logic applies to the dog in question. The only difference is; he has no tree points to minus. Don't get caught up in somehow trying to award tree points for this dog because, like Rip noted, a "non-declared treed" dog cannot be assigned tree points unless it is one of those handled at the tree and only after it is determined that the tree is slick or has *off game (*registered casts).

Let's think about this scenario. It's a moonlit night and we have a dog treeing, but not declared treed, within clear eye sight. Let's also put the stationary on this dog. Before the stationary time is up (dog still not declared treed) the dog leaves the tree and can be seen vanishing off. Are you going to go in and shine the tree and assign and minus tree points to the dog if it's slick? Or, are you going to lift the stationary rule and rock on?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Deputy, Indiana
Posts: 422

Thank you, if they aren't handled at the tree then they aren't considered to be there.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9197

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lance Laymon
Thank you, if they aren't handled at the tree then they aren't considered to be there.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

Thanks Allen
Changes training and whole line of thought.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Burkburnett, TX
Posts: 503

quote:

---

Originally posted by pamjohnson
Thanks Allen
Changes training and whole line of thought.

---

__________________
Tim Green
Retired Air Force 24+ years
Disabled Veteran

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9197

quote:

---

Originally posted by pamjohnson
Thanks Allen
Changes training and whole line of thought.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1565

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allen / UKC
I'm curious how it might change training techniques? For the record, the rule has been this exact way since I first started in the late 80's.

---

__________________
Eric DePue
Hill Country Kennels Itty-Bitty
PKC CH Wax's Late Night Boom
And
Partners on a few common trashy young dogs

Gone but not forgotten

GrNtCh, PKC Ch Hillbilly Bildo
Pr Broken Oaks Wild Blue Gypsy

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allen / UKC
I'm curious how it might change training techniques? For the record, the rule has been this exact way since I first started in the late 80's.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Me thinks this is being over thunk !!



Tar

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9197

quote:

---

Originally posted by pamjohnson
But I sure won't have thought there was a plus side to reward a dog that left a tree. [/B]

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5823

quote:

---

Originally posted by yadkintar
Me thinks this is being over thunk !!



Tar

---

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5639

Shusssssssh, don't go and be giving such secrets away. Lol. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

quote:

---

Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Me thinks the same thing with all the confusion over a 40 year old rule! Can't you just see it now if they can train the dog to know if it's been treed in so it knows when to leave lolI Do you think some just now figured out why some don't always tree their dog first or even at all playing that clock?

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Its an old rule but it doesn't come up much.

It does come up enough that some handlers will "stumble" in that situation. Of course then they are interfering but some take the risk LOL.

__________________
Let's go huntin

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Deputy, Indiana
Posts: 422

Now that I know how it works I think I would just chase them around the tree until they leave and say I couldn't catch them

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lance Laymon
Now that I know how it works I think I would just chase them around the tree until they leave and say I couldn't catch them

---

__________________
Let's go huntin

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2015
Location: mo
Posts: 749

I believe there's a lot of difference in the two. And any good judge might get fooled on one tree for the night. But after that should deal with it accordingly. I've seen both situations. Dog leaves on its own and I've seen a handler intentionally drag his feet and not handle his dog. Next tree he tried the same thing after a short talk he handled his dog first. He then said withdraw my dog and attempted to do what he called training. This is a situation that doesn't come up often but does come up and now we now the official ruling that should be made. Like it or not.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

If we get to a tree and my dog was late getting there it will either be feast or famine either way I will take my medicine walk out there and recut. They are just dogs and it’s just a game we play.



Tar

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2013
Location:
Posts: 195

I’m glad I don’t competition hunt anymore. It won’t be long before you have to keep a lawyer on retainer to help settle rule disputes. The more money involved the more disputes.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3370

quote:

---

Originally posted by 2nd Mac
I’m glad I don’t competition hunt anymore. It won’t be long before you have to keep a lawyer on retainer to help settle rule disputes. The more money involved the more disputes.

---

__________________
Donald Bergeron

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5639

Lol. Some folks just can not accept the " truth" or the correct ruling in this case. Folks want to put their own take on what should be done, not accepting the rule as it is, therein lies ALL of the problems that come up in these rule questions. Everyone has a different take, what most folks are missing is the OVERALL aspect of our RULES. NO RULE can cover every situation, at best it covers the most common situations that arise. Accept the facts that any set of rules has it's shortcomings and if applied equally are fair to ALL that play by these RULES. None of us like every RULE in any game we play, but WE ALL benefit at times by these RULES and at time are the victim of these RULES, it's just a game, either Play or sit it out. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2018
Location: Sharp County Arkansas
Posts: 3

I got to admit I would have scored this one wrong in a hunt out of pure ignorance of the rules. Thanks Alan for explaining.

__________________
Jon Stanley
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts- Churchill

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged