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Rocketman55
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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2107

Poll Scenario-Allen

OK Allen I got one for your poll scenario. Happened to me so I'm looking for clarification.

While hunting in a patch of woods in Indiana I might add, cast cannot get all dogs treed at the same time, so some cast members have to keep recasting in and around the same woods for an hour and 15 minutes or so.

So now here is the scenario; 2 dogs treed, 2 dogs at large. While scoring these two dogs tree, one of the two dogs at large (judges dog) comes in to the judge while he is shining this tree. The judge handles his dog, and is prepared to minus his strike points. One of the two handlers of the dogs we are scoring say's the judge is scratched for handling his dog with it not being on a tree. I explained that I handled my dog within 20 feet of the tree as it had come in to me (thinking I would take my minus) in an effort to save some time to go make another drop in a new set of woods.

This man seemed emphatic that he was correct and since my dog was looking pretty sorry anyway, I scratched myself and continued to judge the cast. Was It wrong or right to have scratched my dog in that situation, with my dog not treeing on this tree but being caught by it's handler within 20 feet of this tree??

I would simply like to know the official answer so that if/when I ever get in that situation again, I will know how to handle it. I didn't put a question on the card, but did ask my master of hounds when I returned to club house, and this master of hounds agreed with me. Having said that I'm a master of hounds too, but wasn't absolutely certain on the proper way to score this situation, but rather than cause a big disruption, I simply scratched my own dog, and continued to complete the cast. Any help on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

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Old Post 06-14-2018 04:52 AM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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The rule (and Allen) say that if the dog comes into the tree he should be handled. It doesn't say anything about smelling up on the tree or barking. And since you are the judge, you can't be scratched for handling your dog. And whether your dog gets minused or not depends on how the tree was scored.

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Old Post 06-14-2018 05:53 AM
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joey
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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
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Richard is correct, you could handle the dog and the only way he gets minus is if they have a coon. You see the dog only has to "come into the tree" It doesn't say he has to come in and tree. You are at the tree so if the dog comes into you he has come into the tree. This is only correct in UKC if it was $kc it is handled completely different and that's where a lot of the confusion happens.

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Old Post 06-14-2018 06:02 AM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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quote:
Originally posted by joey
....Richard is correct....


Oh my goodness, I finally got one right. I am going to have to show this to my wife. I knew that if I kept answering these that I would eventually get one right. I am about as accurate as my dog now. She has a coon about 10% of the time. Michael, thanks for pointing out that I was finally correct about something.

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Hoosier Man1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6197

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Richard is correct, you could handle the dog and the only way he gets minus is if they have a coon. You see the dog only has to "come into the tree" It doesn't say he has to come in and tree. You are at the tree so if the dog comes into you he has come into the tree. This is only correct in UKC if it was $kc it is handled completely different and that's where a lot of the confusion happens.


I was at a RQE last year and this same situation happened. I was judging. We were scoring a tree that was on the edge of a field and we were standing 15 or 20 yards in the field looking for the coon. My female was starting to come in and I was glad she did as we needed to move, rather then turn loose in there again. It was HOT!

Well she came up to me while still shinning and was standing there. I handled her and rested my strike fate on what they had in the tree. We couldn't find the coon and a handler demanded she be minused on strike for quitting a track and coming in.

We had words and I told him he could ? it if he wanted. Well 1 guy withdrerw because he was so far down and wanted to leave. We went back to the club and the MOH said I was to be minused. Even tho its clear black and white that while scoring a tree a dog that comes in gets a free pass. Unless of course a coon is seen.

Most problems arise from just lack of knowledge on the hunters parts and MOHs.

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Old Post 06-14-2018 04:18 PM
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
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All responses are correct. The dog should have been handled, it's the right thing to do. Rule 5(b) applies. The scoring of this dog is now hinged on how the tree is scored.

If there's a coon seen, the dogs gets minus strike points. Otherwise, his/her strike points are circled.

Don't get caught up with any idea of assigning tree points and minusing both strike and tree, if the tree is scored as slick. The dog came in after the judge arrived. 5(b) all day, every day. This is different than "treeing but not declared treed, when the judge arrived".

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Old Post 06-14-2018 04:29 PM
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shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
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That doesn't sound like lack of knowledge of the rules. It seems more like a lack of ability to comprehend what's in black and white.

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 14285

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
....All responses are correct.....


Mr Gingerich, would it have killed you to simply say, "Richard is correct"? It has such a nice ring to it. Try it out loud while you are sitting at work.

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Old Post 06-14-2018 05:09 PM
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8110

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Mr Gingerich, would it have killed you to simply say, "Richard is correct"? It has such a nice ring to it. Try it out loud while you are sitting at work.



I thought about it but thought better of it. It's a weird "ring" that just doesn't sound right. lol.

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Old Post 06-14-2018 05:31 PM
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Allen / UKC
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Go ahead and be the first one to get the next one right, and we'll think about moving you up the ladder a couple more steps.

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Old Post 06-14-2018 05:32 PM
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T Felderman
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2005
Location: Bellevue, IA
Posts: 1604

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
I was at a RQE last year and this same situation happened. I was judging. We were scoring a tree that was on the edge of a field and we were standing 15 or 20 yards in the field looking for the coon. My female was starting to come in and I was glad she did as we needed to move, rather then turn loose in there again. It was HOT!

Well she came up to me while still shinning and was standing there. I handled her and rested my strike fate on what they had in the tree. We couldn't find the coon and a handler demanded she be minused on strike for quitting a track and coming in.

We had words and I told him he could ? it if he wanted. Well 1 guy withdrerw because he was so far down and wanted to leave. We went back to the club and the MOH said I was to be minused. Even tho its clear black and white that while scoring a tree a dog that comes in gets a free pass. Unless of course a coon is seen.

Most problems arise from just lack of knowledge on the hunters parts and MOHs.


In all honesty I could see the you getting minused in that situation. 15-20 yards is a long way from a tree. If you would have arrived at the tree and a dog was declared treed and treeing in the field I'm sure it would have been minused.

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shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1676

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
In all honesty I could see the you getting minused in that situation. 15-20 yards is a long way from a tree. If you would have arrived at the tree and a dog was declared treed and treeing in the field I'm sure it would have been minused.
It's not the same as the dog being treed. He only has to come into the vicinity of the tree to be handled.

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Old Post 06-14-2018 06:38 PM
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Hoosier Man1
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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6197

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
In all honesty I could see the you getting minused in that situation. 15-20 yards is a long way from a tree. If you would have arrived at the tree and a dog was declared treed and treeing in the field I'm sure it would have been minused.


UKC puts no distance on when a dog is to be handled when a dog comes into a tree that's being scored. I don't know to many hunters that will stand directly under a tree to shine it. Especially on a woods edge or a fence row.

Any dog coming into a cast when scoring a tree cannot be minused under the rules. Unless a coon is seen. I believe anytime a dog quits a track regardless of when it does it, it should be minused. But I follow how UKC tells me to score it.

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T Felderman
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2005
Location: Bellevue, IA
Posts: 1604

So if you walked into a tree and a dog was treeing 20 yards away from the tree, you wouldn't minus it or vote to minus it?

You could have been shining the tree in this field 50 yards away. Under your interpretation is this still consider coming into the tree?

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Old Post 06-14-2018 09:57 PM
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shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
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quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
So if you walked into a tree and a dog was treeing 20 yards away from the tree, you wouldn't minus it or vote to minus it?

You could have been shining the tree in this field 50 yards away. Under your interpretation is this still consider coming into the tree?

If you're shining the tree, would consider yourself "at the tree"?

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Joe Moore
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Registered: Sep 2003
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Posts: 1333

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
If you're shining the tree, would consider yourself "at the tree"?



Touche

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SmkyRvrClayton
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What If

What if a dog comes in and instead of it being handled they leave it alone and it trees 3 trees over with a coon? Should that dog have been handled and missed out on his points?

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shadinc
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Only if you want to hunt by the rules as they are now.

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Rocketman55
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Thank You Allen for weighing in on this. I didn't think I should be scratched but this one handler was very persuasive that he was correct. In his defense he did encourage me to put a question on the card and find out for myself, but that would have required me to have driven all the way back to the main club house and my dog was looking sorta bad anyway.

In answer to the other question, the two dogs that were treed got circled as they were treed on a monster den oak. So I guess from what I am understanding, I should have circled Lizzie's strike points as well. The only other thing that I think may be relevant to this is that there was still one dog at large, when Lizzie came into this tree. And I guessing that doesn't matter since we should have then pulled them off and started the 8 minutes on that one remains dog.


Again Thanks so much, I will file that under things I thought I already knew but must have forgotten, LOL Much appreciated!!

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Old Post 06-15-2018 03:16 AM
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joey
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Rocketman55, yes her strike points should have been circled.

The part that people do not agree with is the dog is not truly coming into the tree. In reality they have quit what they were doing and come to the handler. No one is denying that, but they way UKC handles it is the dog has come to the tree because you are "at" the tree. Its really not something the dog should be allowed to get away with but they do.

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Hoosier Man1
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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
So if you walked into a tree and a dog was treeing 20 yards away from the tree, you wouldn't minus it or vote to minus it?

You could have been shining the tree in this field 50 yards away. Under your interpretation is this still consider coming into the tree?



As long as the shine time has started the dog cannot be minused for coming in. Now, some judges won't order a.dog to be handled unless it shows interest in the tree being scored. I, however see no good coming from allowinga dog to mill around while scoring a tree.

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DwayneWhite
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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: West Point, MS
Posts: 114

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Richard is correct, you could handle the dog and the only way he gets minus is if they have a coon. You see the dog only has to "come into the tree" It doesn't say he has to come in and tree. You are at the tree so if the dog comes into you he has come into the tree. This is only correct in UKC if it was $kc it is handled completely different and that's where a lot of the confusion happens.


How would it supposed to have been handled in PKC?

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joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
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quote:
Originally posted by DwayneWhite
How would it supposed to have been handled in PKC?



Dog has to come in and tree on the tree to be handled. If it just walks in or walks up to a handler it will be minus on track for quieting.

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Rip
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Registered: Jun 2003
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Posts: 4622

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
As long as the shine time has started the dog cannot be minused for coming in. Now, some judges won't order a.dog to be handled unless it shows interest in the tree being scored. I, however see no good coming from allowinga dog to mill around while scoring a tree.


Remember the judge does not have to order the dog be handled. He has no choice. The rules state that all dogs at the tree MUST be leashed. There is no lee way here, no waiting to be told. If the dog is at the tree you are to put a leash on it.

That's why the judge is supposed to be the first to arrive at the tree, so he can determine who is showing treed but when you get to the tree by rule you are to leash all dogs at the tree and you are to leash all dogs that come in to the tree.

Thats just the way the rule is written in UKC.

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Richard Lambert
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I always thought that judge was in charge and no one could handle their dog until the judge told them to. When you go in to a tree, can you handle your dog before the judge tells you to even though the rule says dogs at the tree must be handled?

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