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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 14821

Honor Rules

Whose responsibility is it to make sure that every handler knows the rules? Whose responsibility is it to teach every handler the rules? Is it UKC's responsibility? Is it the club's responsibility? Or is it the personal responsibility of each handler?
How does a handler learn the rules? Are there classes? Are there teachers? Are there textbooks with examples and explanations geared toward the novice? Are there coaches?

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 7247

Trial by fire lol ! Or the ukc message board Jim will never lead you astray.



Tar

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Blaze2014
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Registered: Jan 2018
Location: Indiana
Posts: 103

The handler. Just like they should know the dog.

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George pouliott
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2015
Location: st. augustine Fl
Posts: 175

Rules

Most all the comp hunts I was ever in on UKC the guys were really helpful with understanding I knew very little and explained a lot to me . But because they knew the rules they used it to their advantage to win . But I honestly believe if you want to competition hunt knowing the rules is your responsibility and if not sure about them call UKC they have always been really helpful for me . And lord forbid you ask on the Facebook everybody on there is the best handler dog caller in the world .

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BLAKE WHEELER
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2008
Location: Macon Ga.
Posts: 588

If I have a question I always call some old hippie from Tennessee, he knows everything lol

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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 3546

.

Richard you ask a bunch of questions you already know the answers to. LOL

Actually this question can be answered from the bottom up or the top down.

The bottom up answer is everyone that hunts should make it a point to learn the rules. Nothing wrong with learning and getting experience while hunting as long as you don't overstep your knowledge and cause problems because your lack of knowledge. It then moves up to the judges to know the rules and understand what they are accepting the responsibility to do. That is to fairly Judge. Then the club comes into play to act in the correct manner if a judge does not know or does not want to abide by the rules. Then UKC should get involved to deal with clubs who have problems.

Now from the Top Down. You have UKC first. I think a lot more could be and should be done in this area to make sure things run smoothly. If most of us were UKC I am not sure that after reading the boards you would be happy with the knowledge level of the judges and hunters out there. UKC should take some responsibility and I know I would if I was UKC to get the correct rules and interpretations out to the public. I think having the rules on the card is great. Then having an advisor that most people have never seen just clouds the issue.

Now for the Clubs. No club wants problems. So any club doing the right thing is not just going to hand the card out for anyone to judge.

The handler/hunter pays their money and spends their time, so why in the world wouldn't you want to know the rules. Why wouldn't you want the club to give the card to the most qualified person and why in the world wouldn't you want support from UKC if there is a problem.

There are problems and from the top down and the bottom up. I think there can be improvements.

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 14821

Mr Conkey, I only know my answers. And whoever said that you can't teach an old dog new tricks was wrong. I find that the older I get, the less I know.

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 7247

Well I am kinda glad I have gotten older and became an underachiever lol. Unfortunately I see things going in a way I am uncomfortable with and am glad I got to see it the way it was.




Tar

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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 3546

.

Richard there is wealth of knowledge on this board wrapped in layers of yesterday thinking along with new ideas unheard of or accepted by many. That leads to one group or another always appearing to be confused. The confusion seems to get us at each other before we find common ground.

I appreciate all the knowledge given out on here.

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joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3519

When I was a kid me and a buddy had a score card and we memorized and had fun quizzing each other on it. So when I went to a hunt I was a kid and knew the rules better than guys that did it for years. So many people have learned the rules by going along on cast and excepting what the cast decided. They go onto the next cast and teach them the wrong way that they learned last weekend. Now they draw a guy the next week that knows the rule and applies it and that guy gets labeled a cheat. You know the answer Richard, its the individuals responsibility and we know how people these days are about taking responsibility.

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 7247

Well looks like I only got one thing left to do then !!


Be on the cover of the rollen stone magazine !!




Tar

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 14821

Oh my goodness, here is another way of looking at it.
If a student goes to school and doesn't learn something...

Is it the teacher's fault for not teaching/explaining correctly?

Is it the student's fault for not paying attention?

Is it the textbook author's fault for not making it simple enough?

Is it the school board's fault for not hiring good teachers, paying them enough money and providing a good learning environment?

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 7247

Here is anouther way to look at it !!


It took me 40 yrs to learn how to do it right and now they start changing stuff and making it easier so the younger bunch will quit crying about getting cheated all the time lol.



Tar

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joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3519

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Here is anouther way to look at it !!


It took me 40 yrs to learn how to do it right and now they start changing stuff and making it easier so the younger bunch will quit crying about getting cheated all the time lol.



Tar



Took me about a month when I was 13, I guess some people just learn at different speeds. just messing with you, don't go off on another Tar rant. Richard in his case it was definitely the school systems fault.

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Michael Rosamond
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Old Post 05-31-2018 08:56 PM
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 7247

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Took me about a month when I was 13, I guess some people just learn at different speeds. just messing with you, don't go off on another Tar rant. Richard in his case it was definitely the school systems fault.




Talking about all of it dog breeding , training ect lol. I waisted about ten years being a dummy that's how I understand the dark side of the scorecard.


Tar

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Old Post 05-31-2018 09:16 PM
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Allen / UKC
Administrator

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8235

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Richard you ask a bunch of questions you already know the answers to. LOL

Actually this question can be answered from the bottom up or the top down.

The bottom up answer is everyone that hunts should make it a point to learn the rules. Nothing wrong with learning and getting experience while hunting as long as you don't overstep your knowledge and cause problems because your lack of knowledge. It then moves up to the judges to know the rules and understand what they are accepting the responsibility to do. That is to fairly Judge. Then the club comes into play to act in the correct manner if a judge does not know or does not want to abide by the rules. Then UKC should get involved to deal with clubs who have problems.

Now from the Top Down. You have UKC first. I think a lot more could be and should be done in this area to make sure things run smoothly. If most of us were UKC I am not sure that after reading the boards you would be happy with the knowledge level of the judges and hunters out there. UKC should take some responsibility and I know I would if I was UKC to get the correct rules and interpretations out to the public. I think having the rules on the card is great. Then having an advisor that most people have never seen just clouds the issue.

Now for the Clubs. No club wants problems. So any club doing the right thing is not just going to hand the card out for anyone to judge.

The handler/hunter pays their money and spends their time, so why in the world wouldn't you want to know the rules. Why wouldn't you want the club to give the card to the most qualified person and why in the world wouldn't you want support from UKC if there is a problem.

There are problems and from the top down and the bottom up. I think there can be improvements.



Bruce makes some good points and I agree with most of them. There's definitely various ways to learn. I remember our club used to do some rules seminars/discussions at club meetings which were quite helpful.

One comment suggested the Advisor clouds matters. The Advisor (monthly column) includes correct scoring responses as it relates to the scenarios described. Not sure how that would cloud matters? I understand that not everyone gets the magazine and reads those articles but hopefully they provide more insight to those who do. Maybe I'm missing the point.

I couldn't agree more that it starts at the top. The other side of that is; there's only so much that can be done. We can write articles, talk to folks on the phone or at events, and things like that. You can lead a horse to water....... IMO, the biggest part lies on the part of each individual and to what extent they choose to reach out to expand their knowledge. There was a time when I was as green as grass, but I never found them as difficult to learn as some will suggest it is. Everyone has access to a rulebook but they don't just magically appear on a doorstep. It starts by actually reading every word. Trying to read into things too much is probably not a good idea.

We've also, in the past, conducted some rules seminars at events we travel to throughout the year. However, it seems that most are poorly attended. We're lucky to get a half dozen interested participants. Maybe it's a sign that the chairman is not a good teacher? But then, I look back to an old photo where one of the best chairman ever to discuss rules had a participant sitting in the front row taking a nap. lol.

It seems young kids are always eager to sit in on rules seminars and learn. Especially, when you make them fun and they come with some form of a contest. We're doing one of these each day at the Youth Nationals. Start time is 4:30 each day. Young or old - all are welcome to participate.

Hopefully, some of the polls and rules questions we been doing on this forum are a positive tool.

Just my two cents.

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 7247

Being in the air conditioning on a hot day knocks me out every time just sayen.



Tar

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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 3546

.

My feeling is the Adivsor Clouds mattes because it is not available to everyone. At midnight am I going to believe a guy that said he read the clarification in the magazine when all night long. I felt he was trying to shaft me. The advisor is vital because it is up to date information on rules and updated UKC interpretations. In fact it is so important that that one copy should be sent to the publisher and one copy sent to someone to post on line.

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Old Post 06-01-2018 01:17 AM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 14821

The advisor is only "cloudy" when it is different from the way you think the rule should be. When you disagree with UKC's interpretation is when it gets "cloudy". When you agree with UKC then it is very clear.

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Old Post 06-01-2018 01:46 AM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 7247

I was born in the 50's Richard my brain ain't made to comprehend three books and a scorecard I type with one finger I mean oh my goodness 🙃


Tar

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 14821

If you can't comprehend UKC's rulebook, then how in the world did you ever pass the drivers license test?

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novicane65
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 990

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
If you can't comprehend UKC's rulebook, then how in the world did you ever pass the drivers license test?


Well the drivers license test is black and white. Zero gray areas. And there's zero interpretations needed. Ukc leaves a lot to interpretation. Right or wrong?

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 7247

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
If you can't comprehend UKC's rulebook, then how in the world did you ever pass the drivers license test?




Old folks without a proper education learn by years of hands on experience and repetition. When I passed the test all we had was a rule book and they would give you a score card to take home and learn all these years and I have never needed nothing but that scorecard to run a hunt or judge a cast. Now if Sombody needs all that other it's ok. But I have never had any of the kc big boys setting with me at 2:00 in the morning taking care of the customers ........... It's just me !!!



Good enough to pull the wagon not good enough to ride in it !!


Tar

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Old Post 06-01-2018 12:17 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 3546

.

Richard, I will try and say this in ENGLISH. I won't use any fancy words like CLOUDY. The advisor compliments the rules on the back of the score card. It explains the ones that need explaining. The advisor gives you the answers you need to properly score. UKC spends time giving the answers to rules so everyone can understand them. But then the advisor, not made available to the public unless you take the Coon Hound Bloodlines or purchase one that may be outdated by the time you get it.

Put that information on line in real time and a step in the right direction has been taken. All the work and effort that UKC puts into it can pay off even more.

We all talk about the young people learning the rules. I hope you understand that the majority of young people use nothing but their SMART PHONES for everything, from talking, texting and web browsing to watching TV. If want young people to learn what is going on it better be on the web and your web page better be MOBILE FRIENDLY.

Richard do you get the picture now? Why in the heck can't you understand english and want to help make things better for everyone. Instead of turning every word someone writes into your little playground. Put the Advisor on the Web. Is that plain english enough.

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 14821

Mr Conkey, the advisor is available to everyone. I guess that I am old school. I learned that if you want something you put forth the effort to get it. When I grew up an education was offered to us and we either put forth the effort to learn it or we didn't. Nobody spoon fed us. And we didn't blame the teacher when we didn't learn. If the young people want to learn the rules, they can. If they dont want to spend the time or effort then that is up to them.

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