Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Back in the late 60's and early 70's. I was all about GENETICS. Maybe because I had no training experience and all I knew was to turn one loose. Pups in my opinion were not as much in the middle of the road as they are today with ability. They either had the hunt, had the tree, had tracking ability and lacked aggression. Or they were useless. All that came from GENETICS. You hunted them and watched the cream come to the top. My theory on how long to hunt them depended on the dogs progress. They usually progressed slower than they do today. As long as one wasn't a problem, they were given time to develop. That could be well over a year old. Then in the late 80's and 90's that started to change. I think a larger percentage of pups where being born with more GENETICS geared to treeing coon. Running less junk and being more active as far as hunting. Easier to get a pup to do something even if wrong. They excited you. You went from handling one for a year to get it going to handling one a month or two. The obedience training that you slowly did with a years worth of handling. Now had to be done in a couple months. About that time. I think more emphasis started to be placed on environment and training. As the young dogs were more hyper and needed more correction. You roll into 2000 and 2010. You had better get a handle on the pups with the environment you kept them in and training. The Genetics had developed to they are going to do something, most of the time wrong. You still had your naturals but it took a different eye from the trainer to spot it. Many a coonhunter that don't have the eye for exceptional ability in a coonhound. Was fooled by the desire and drive along with the tree there pup had. When most of the time the pup was wrong. Tracking wrong, barking wrong, treeing wrong. Don't get me wrong. GENETICS is still the foundation. But ability in pedigree is not as hard to find as it was 40 or 50 years ago. That is why in my opinion. A pups environment and handling/training has moved ahead of GENETICS in owning that exceptional pup. Don't misunderstand this. GENETICS is still the foundation. Just a lot more solid foundations all across the country in many peoples back yards. They just don't know how to train and handle that pup to build upon the foundation. Because most pups will do something over time. Many pups have been kept around and allowed to go back into the gene pool. We brought GENETICS to a level that was good. But with accepting stupid stuff from dogs because they do a little. Will allow them to be bred back into the gene pool. Then the GENETICS will go down hill. Many people say it started going down hill several years ago. This might be true. But today a bigger emphasis has to be put on environment and training. To find the counterfeits and remove them from the gene pool. They are not as easy to pick out today as they were in the 80's. Most peoples standards are not to the point they should be. It the 80's your dog treed a coon and things were looking up. Today a dog can tree a coon that should be culled. Because we cultivated the fields of treeing and let weeds grow in the tracking, babbling and road running fields. Along with aggression and hereditary illness/faults. It's treeing a coon to a standard is what we should be looking for. That standard has to be evaluated long before the tree is made.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

My standreds are still the same I want mine to tree coons with the speed and accuracy as good as a poor family’s best hide dog.



Tar

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

Today a hide dog is not of value.
Competition dogs are valuable. The biggest competition is a clock. Not a dog. 2nd competition is the rules. Not a dog. 3rd is a handler. Not a dog. 4th well maybe the other dogs in your cast.

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Registered: Apr 2005
Location: Barnesville, Ga.
Posts: 409

A " hide dog" is valuable to me. A good one gets buried here. Competition dogs.....not so much

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Registered: Feb 2017
Location: va
Posts: 111

All I want is a hide dog!!! Only pleasure I get is seeing them eyes at the end of the track ! That's all I will ever own is a hide dog ,

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pdillon

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Registered: Sep 2017
Location:
Posts: 168

All I want is a hide dog- one that shows coon at the end of the track. I've spent a lot of money trying to find one and I think I could honestly find a dog that could compete in hunts easier than i can find one that will show me WILD coons in these mountains. Unfortunately that is what is being bred in a lot of dogs today. Hot nosed tree happy hounds just dont get the job done here where coon are thin and conditions are not favorable. It takes a track dog with a good nose and a brain in its head to do it here.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 335

Bruce,
I'm gonna disagree with you on this one. The biggest issue today is that people have changed, not the dogs so much. People do not hunt hard today like they used to, people do not evaluate dogs the same because they rely on their garmin instead of their ears, and we place too much emphasis on competition hunting as a tool to evaluate ability! I have heard repeatedly that 'poor breeding practices ruined our dogs' and dogs can't run a track, etc., etc. Well, who exactly did what? Why did anyone breed dogs that don't suit the purpose of the potential buyers? Fact is, you can sell a dog that will make a tree or two in a couple hours and occasionally tree a coon. That's all the longer most hunt anyway. The dog can be caught on the tree and you can drive to them using the garmin and a UTV. On the other hand, one that trails around and grinds an old track for an hour isn't action packed enough for the two hour hunter and those dogs aren't winning a lot of cast. Most of the people I know would rather hunt a dog that is 50% accurate, but makes 4 trees an hour than hunt a dog that makes one tree an hour at 95% accurate. Do the math..... I know guys say otherwise, but I also know what I see when hunting with them. I also see what is being produced. In Walker dogs, 90% of the pedigrees are the same mix and contain the same dogs; yet, the breeder says 'mine are accurate' and 'outstanding track dogs'. Right? Somebody else is ruining things, but I'm fixing it. Don't get me wrong, I still see some good dogs and the people that hunt hard and know what a good dog is usually have one. Hunt winners can tree coons and can be good honest coon dogs--just like 40 years ago. Most of the dogs that can tree a coon aren't much different than everyone else's and all can win a few hunts if taken to town. The big difference is that fewer and fewer people know the difference between a dog that can tree coon and a truly outstanding dog. An few dogs get hunted hard enough to make a fair comparison. If there is a blame to place, I'd say we all need to look in the mirror first. That's my .02 to think about. Carry on........

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1907

quote:

---

Originally posted by pamjohnson
Today a hide dog is not of value.
Competition dogs are valuable. The biggest competition is a clock. Not a dog. 2nd competition is the rules. Not a dog. 3rd is a handler. Not a dog. 4th well maybe the other dogs in your cast.

---

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1907

quote:

---

Originally posted by pamjohnson
Today a hide dog is not of value.
Competition dogs are valuable. The biggest competition is a clock. Not a dog. 2nd competition is the rules. Not a dog. 3rd is a handler. Not a dog. 4th well maybe the other dogs in your cast.

---

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

I guess my comment wasn't popular. Doesn't mean it isn't true.
I don't know why every one assumes a competition dog isn't accurate. Most of the competition hunters I have been around wouldn't be happy with a dog that slicks very often.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

A good friend of mine took his 1 yr old hide dog to a comp hunt last night and won $68 by treeing 2 coons all by himself.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 335

Breeding dogs will not improve until the market demands something different than what is produced. That is based upon what people want in a dog. I totally agree that dogs aren't bred or sold for gathering coon hides anymore. The market is for a competition dog that WINS. Nobody goes to participate, they want to win. The competition was correctly defined as competing against a clock, the rules, the handlers, and maybe the other dogs. Which is exactly why 'auto strike, deep and alone with a coon' is popular. They win....... and the people that what to win want one just like the one that beats them. The standard idea has been around a long time......Wick presented his idea for standard in one of his books and it's the concept of HTX titles. Neither is popular or mean much to anyone IMHO.

What I can't understand is why everyone is trying to fix someone else's problem? If your dog is accurate and suits you, then why worry about what everyone else has? Is it because you don't win? I thought that didn't matter and was the problem we are trying to fix.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Here is the thing based on my own experiences the upper class competition hunters all have a money man that run the bigger hunts every week. They will spend $35,000 to win $25,000 plus the price of the dog , pickup , and handlers wages. It’s a write off and they are a close group of them and you have to spend a lot of money to buy your way in. So when they win the big one people automatically want to breed to their dog. I worked for a guy a long time that bought those dogs after they got some age on them and I was more often than not disappointed in them and their pups.


They were not enjoyable hide dogs most were a royal pain in the eeeee aaaaaaw !!


Tar

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Tarbaby, you were disappointed because you were expecting a hide dog and got a comp dog. Why would anyone buy a winning comp dog if they wanted a hide dog? That doesn't make sense.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Tarbaby, you were disappointed because you were expecting a hide dog and got a comp dog. Why would anyone buy a winning comp dog if they wanted a hide dog? That doesn't make sense.

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Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 340

That’s my whole point. If you like what you have keep it . If you can’t win these hunts with what you have an like what you have , well that’s a problem a man himself will have to figure out . I learned a long time ago that when men with big money gets involved things will go in their favor. The style dog that’s winning an I will go as far to say hunt time to accommodate that style dog. A true track running, cold nosed , conservative, honest hide dog or a true hunting dog is not needed in these hunts. They slow. Something that gets struck (quick) honest or not an gets through the country an gets treed with a coon is the dog you want. Eating up the time on the clock is another thing. It’s not about producing a true pleasure to hunt coon dog anymore. It’s what will win.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Sheridan, WY
Posts: 1147

Someone on this board in the past said that coon hunting is a sum zero game- either you are treeing coons regularly, or your not. Anything else, how far out they hunt, how hard they tree, what kind of voice they have, etc... is a distant distant distant second place.

Any style, fault, trait, etc..... can usually be tolerated if you are treeing coon regularly with the hound. I don't know how much dogs have changed... I don't know if my hound hunts like an old dog, or a new one. I know I usually put a coon in a tree with him.

I know last night my 14 year old son had a blast. This dog has my sons name on the papers as a co-owner. We tree coons, my boy gets excited.... Nothing better... that hasn't changed. Go tree coons, have fun. That is the point and has not changed.

Last edited by houndsound on 05-15-2020 at 05:30 PM

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Treeing coons and having fun is the point for some. Winning money is the point for others and if you are getting paid money to do something it isn't supposed to be fun. Everyone is different and who is the one to say which is better or which type everyone should be.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Well I guess they have fun at those big entry fee hunts. They have bbq , adult beverages , play poker and I heard rumors of a stripper pole lol.


Tarbaby

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Sheridan, WY
Posts: 1147

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Treeing coons and having fun is the point for some. Winning money is the point for others and if you are getting paid money to do something it isn't supposed to be fun. Everyone is different and who is the one to say which is better or which type everyone should be.

---

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 2154

quote:

---

Originally posted by GES
Bruce,
I'm gonna disagree with you on this one. The biggest issue today is that people have changed, not the dogs so much. People do not hunt hard today like they used to, people do not evaluate dogs the same because they rely on their garmin instead of their ears, and we place too much emphasis on competition hunting as a tool to evaluate ability! I have heard repeatedly that 'poor breeding practices ruined our dogs' and dogs can't run a track, etc., etc. Well, who exactly did what? Why did anyone breed dogs that don't suit the purpose of the potential buyers? Fact is, you can sell a dog that will make a tree or two in a couple hours and occasionally tree a coon. That's all the longer most hunt anyway. The dog can be caught on the tree and you can drive to them using the garmin and a UTV. On the other hand, one that trails around and grinds an old track for an hour isn't action packed enough for the two hour hunter and those dogs aren't winning a lot of cast. Most of the people I know would rather hunt a dog that is 50% accurate, but makes 4 trees an hour than hunt a dog that makes one tree an hour at 95% accurate. Do the math..... I know guys say otherwise, but I also know what I see when hunting with them. I also see what is being produced. In Walker dogs, 90% of the pedigrees are the same mix and contain the same dogs; yet, the breeder says 'mine are accurate' and 'outstanding track dogs'. Right? Somebody else is ruining things, but I'm fixing it. Don't get me wrong, I still see some good dogs and the people that hunt hard and know what a good dog is usually have one. Hunt winners can tree coons and can be good honest coon dogs--just like 40 years ago. Most of the dogs that can tree a coon aren't much different than everyone else's and all can win a few hunts if taken to town. The big difference is that fewer and fewer people know the difference between a dog that can tree coon and a truly outstanding dog. An few dogs get hunted hard enough to make a fair comparison. If there is a blame to place, I'd say we all need to look in the mirror first. That's my .02 to think about. Carry on........

---

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1907

quote:

---

Originally posted by GES
Bruce,
I'm gonna disagree with you on this one. The biggest issue today is that people have changed, not the dogs so much. People do not hunt hard today like they used to, people do not evaluate dogs the same because they rely on their garmin instead of their ears, and we place too much emphasis on competition hunting as a tool to evaluate ability! I have heard repeatedly that 'poor breeding practices ruined our dogs' and dogs can't run a track, etc., etc. Well, who exactly did what? Why did anyone breed dogs that don't suit the purpose of the potential buyers? Fact is, you can sell a dog that will make a tree or two in a couple hours and occasionally tree a coon. That's all the longer most hunt anyway. The dog can be caught on the tree and you can drive to them using the garmin and a UTV. On the other hand, one that trails around and grinds an old track for an hour isn't action packed enough for the two hour hunter and those dogs aren't winning a lot of cast. Most of the people I know would rather hunt a dog that is 50% accurate, but makes 4 trees an hour than hunt a dog that makes one tree an hour at 95% accurate. Do the math..... I know guys say otherwise, but I also know what I see when hunting with them. I also see what is being produced. In Walker dogs, 90% of the pedigrees are the same mix and contain the same dogs; yet, the breeder says 'mine are accurate' and 'outstanding track dogs'. Right? Somebody else is ruining things, but I'm fixing it. Don't get me wrong, I still see some good dogs and the people that hunt hard and know what a good dog is usually have one. Hunt winners can tree coons and can be good honest coon dogs--just like 40 years ago. Most of the dogs that can tree a coon aren't much different than everyone else's and all can win a few hunts if taken to town. The big difference is that fewer and fewer people know the difference between a dog that can tree coon and a truly outstanding dog. An few dogs get hunted hard enough to make a fair comparison. If there is a blame to place, I'd say we all need to look in the mirror first. That's my .02 to think about. Carry on........

---

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1907

I have put a lot of thought in breeding competition dogs...why is it that there is so much talk on breeding too much tree...then tracking falls off....

So emphasis went into breeding more tracking and treeing fell off...

It doesn’t make sense that we should loose any on one trait when we add more of another trait...I don’t think breeders would make that mistake, again generally speaking...

This is a personal theory of mine I have developed over the years working with many different people...I see some similarities in a few traits in dogs and people...

So I will say it here and maybe others have seen the same things...

On the treeing and tracking issues....on average...when a person is very strong in one area of expertise then he will lack in another area...that could be what is happening with track and tree...

So it is possible the right answer will be selecting for balance...but in competition hounds we push the limits in breeding the very best and we fall off that ragged edge...
A few will get lucky and have that dog and hopefully one day it will be a world champion and he will be bred and make a ton of money...but the genetics might not be there...so we continue to have these discussions...

I like the middle of the road dog...not hot nosed and not cold nosed...I don’t want a slow hunting dog nor a dog setting the woods on fire but one that gets out there quick and makes it look pretty easy...I think if we breed for a higher level of perfection we will fall off the edge on a regular basis...and so we will continue having these discussions...My thoughts on it...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

As long as there is a plan B. As long as you have kc’s that have rules that always have a winner no matter if they tree 5 coons or don’t tree any they still get paid. This kennel club just broke in to the $$$ game I hear grumbles all the time they think they should get paid for dead cast. Like old south 123 said he could win $$$ hunts with a beagle. Pretty common practice around here to enter just a well started pup just running and treeing and try and win it’s $100 to go to the super stakes then go and wonder why they did not place. Who ever made up those rules in the other kc was not concerned about creating better coondogs they were about lining their pockets and have been accomplishing that goal.



Tar

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

To some happiness and pride comes from how many coons their dog can tree. To others happiness and pride comes from how much money their dog wins.
Most comp coon hunters don't need the money their dog wins. They have a job and work to make money to spend coon hunting. If the Kennel Club did not keep track of earnings and post them for all to see then they would quit comp hunting. To the comp hunters, how much money a dog dog wins is a measure of how good a dog is, not how many coons they tree. After all they are comp dogs. That is why pleasure hunters are disappointed when they buy a top comp dog and it isn't a pleasure to hunt.

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