Registered: Mar 2009
Location: OKLA
Posts: 1132

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Originally posted by Jerry Sullivan
Bruce,I owned Buster and had several real tree dogs out of him.The Penny dog crossed with Buster had some 130 to 140 bark tree dogs.They also treedcoons.I used to mess with walking and racking horses.If you gave them too much protein you were in for a lot of trouble,back off the protein and settle back down.Dogs used to eat low protein or tablet scraps.

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Registered: Sep 2019
Location: North Texas
Posts: 28

Is it possible that we have bred too many recessive traits into today’s hounds? Too much tree, too much motor, too much independence......etc. Its just not natural to bark intensely for an hour or more at anything, it’s not natural to hunt so fast and hard that you over exert yourself, it’s not natural to be so focused on treeing a coon that you ignore everything else ( other dogs, people, hiway, etc) The breeding practices have led to a dog with traits that are good in the woods and a problem at home.
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Combine breeding practices above with better vaccination, worming, feeding, and kenneling practices......then consider being a souped up race horse that doesn’t get out of the stall to exercise. Dogs used to run loose or be chained up. Both would remove more energy than a 5’ x 10’ kennel. I see a lot of these modern “race horses” get left in the kennel and not handled enough to develop any manners or handle.
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Today’s culls are crackheads where the culls of the past we’re just duds.

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Leon

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

Come on guys tell me what’s happening to the new generation? I would like to hear some logical thinking 🤔 The old was not perfect but the new has reached a different level of extemeness, if we don’t start recognizing what’s happening we are killing a wonderful breed of dogs.
And it’s been done numerous times before.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

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Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Come on guys tell me what’s happening to the new generation? I would like to hear some logical thinking 🤔 The old was not perfect but the new has reached a different level of extemeness, if we don’t start recognizing what’s happening we are killing a wonderful breed of dogs.
And it’s been done numerous times before.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Oh my goodness, are we on the verge of breeding too much go power into our dogs? When you add nitrous to a race car it will go faster up to a point. But what happens if you add too much nitrous? And how do you know how much is too much?
Most race car builders today have gone to turbos to add horsepower. I wonder why that is? Is it time to try to balance some of that speed with brains or sense? How much speed is too much speed? At what point will a dog " blow up"?

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 02-08-2020 at 02:30 PM

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, are we on the verge of breeding too much go power into our dogs? When you add nitrous to a race car it will go faster up to a point. But what happens if you add too much nitrous? And how do you know how much is too much?
Most race car builders today have gone to turbos to add horsepower. I wonder why that is? Is it time to try to balance some of that speed with brains or sense? How much speed is too much speed? At what point will a dog " blow up"?

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

My dog got beat Thursday night. Do you think that I should have posted that? One of those high powered speed demons raced up a trail 900 yds and slammed a hot coon while she peeled off into the woods and tried to work a bad track 300 yds in front of us.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
My dog got beat Thursday night. Do you think that I should have posted that? One of those high powered speed demons raced up a trail 900 yds and slammed a hot coon while she peeled off into the woods and tried to work a bad track 300 yds in front of us.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

You can go out and buy a speed demon or you can try to breed some more speed into your line without losing what you have. It is a balancing act and takes some time.
But I hunt Redbones so I am used to getting beat. It doesn't really bother me. What bothers me is if "I" think that my dog did a poor job.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 02-08-2020 at 03:37 PM

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
You can go out and buy a speed demon or you can try to breed some more speed into your line without losing what you have. It is a balancing act and takes some time.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Sheridan, WY
Posts: 1148

I had been coon hunting since I was a kid in school. Coon hunted every week year around as a kid. Just "pleasure hunted". I then got into beagles for a long time and coon hunted a little, but not much. I got out of hounds all together for a good spell as my boys were growing up and took up most of my time.

All that to say I had a large break before getting back into coon hounds a couple years. One thing that struck me as different was how people used distance as a bragging point. "He will throw rocks in your face and be a mile away", or, "Dog will be 900 plus yards when he strikes.'"

I never remember people talking about % of slick trees. I don't think in the "old days" people would have tolerated even 30% slicks... that would have been a cull.

Being "alone" was emphasized a lot more than I remember years ago also. Now in all fairness I was never into competition hunting.. and the internet was not used back when I was a kid. But still the descriptions of a quality hound seemed to really have changed.

And as been said... hounds I had as a kid were very easy to keep in the yard. One's I have now... pretty high strung and tough on the neighbor relationships!

Last edited by houndsound on 02-08-2020 at 04:50 PM

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3369

Nobody wants to address the elephant in the room. Competition hunting. If we were all strictly pleasure hunters how many of these problems would exist? First strike 100 points.(Babbling)Lightning fast tree dogs 125 points.( Slick trees). Get away from the other dogs.(All of the points) Possum, go home. Slick tree. Usually circle. Sometimes 100-. I realize that at the top of this game there are dogs that are legitimate. Hunt hard, tree quick and have coons, but they're few and far between.

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Donald Bergeron

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: north ala.
Posts: 902

Competition hunting is what exploded the price of a decent dog to where a poor man couldn't afford to compete anymore

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5637

Unfortunately, I think you have hit on the problem and the elephant in the room is most definitely COMPETITION HUNTING. What should have been a way to improve our coon dogs is the very thing that is destroying what used to be fun. I used to rabbit hunt with beagles and the beagle field trials was destroying the quality of the hunting beagles. Judging a beagle by how close to the track it ran without regard to speed turned out beagles that were worthless as gun dogs. Fortunately, the gun dog hunters started their own field trails with different rules and standards. Coon hound competition hunts have just about destroyed the cold nosed, accurate, fill the barn with hide dogs. Gone are the days when the real honest coon dogs win the majority of the casts, replaced by auto striking, hot nosed ambush style dogs going a mile to tree a coon. Try filling the freezer or barn with hides hunting these dogs in December and January. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 417

Like it or hate it without competition hunting there's very few younger hunters interested also without competition we have little or nothing left because hide hunting basically is gone and has been as a matter of fact without major events to look forward too and hunt at there's very little interest anymore

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1911

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
Unfortunately, I think you have hit on the problem and the elephant in the room is most definitely COMPETITION HUNTING. What should have been a way to improve our coon dogs is the very thing that is destroying what used to be fun. I used to rabbit hunt with beagles and the beagle field trials was destroying the quality of the hunting beagles. Judging a beagle by how close to the track it ran without regard to speed turned out beagles that were worthless as gun dogs. Fortunately, the gun dog hunters started their own field trails with different rules and standards. Coon hound competition hunts have just about destroyed the cold nosed, accurate, fill the barn with hide dogs. Gone are the days when the real honest coon dogs win the majority of the casts, replaced by auto striking, hot nosed ambush style dogs going a mile to tree a coon. Try filling the freezer or barn with hides hunting these dogs in December and January. Dave

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

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Originally posted by wart
Like it or hate it without competition hunting there's very few younger hunters interested also without competition we have little or nothing left because hide hunting basically is gone and has been as a matter of fact without major events to look forward too and hunt at there's very little interest anymore

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 417

BINGO we have a winner just like yadkin tar just stated he had a Competition coon hunt and had good food and fellowship and treed coon and had some laughs with fellow hunters. It took a competition hunt to achieve this folks he just proved my point .

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5637

Maybe we need a new format type of competition hunts. Hunts that reward certain things and scratch for certain things. Rethink what we are trying to accomplish with our hunts. Make winning a real test and being a Champion mean something you are proud of. Elimination style hunts, cast winners advance and hunt off for a true winner. Lots to think about, it can be done. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

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Originally posted by wart
BINGO we have a winner just like yadkin tar just stated he had a Competition coon hunt and had good food and fellowship and treed coon and had some laughs with fellow hunters. It took a competition hunt to achieve this folks he just proved my point .

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Sheridan, WY
Posts: 1148

Could a format be made where it was expected that more often, dogs would be packed up working together? In the beagle world there are formats for every style of running beagle.

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5637

The format could be as desired, rewarding dogs for doing something special like treeing a coon the other dogs don't even know exists called bonus points, slick trees scored minus at twice the tree value, things like this could reward the honest dogs and separate the coon dogs from the junk. These are ideas that could bring back the barn hide dogs that seems to have disappeared. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3369

We're kinda veering away from the original topic. It started on why dogs are the way they are today. Now people have gone to defending competition hunting. I'm going to one today. Like meeting with other hunters and bragging about my latest pups accomplishments and hearing about theirs. Buuuut, you can't deny that dogs are the way they are because of competition hunting. I could change one rule and change the way modern dogs operate. Scratch dogs for obvious slick trees.

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Donald Bergeron

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

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Originally posted by shadinc
We're kinda veering away from the original topic. It started on why dogs are the way they are today. Now people have gone to defending competition hunting. I'm going to one today. Like meeting with other hunters and bragging about my latest pups accomplishments and hearing about theirs. Buuuut, you can't deny that dogs are the way they are because of competition hunting. I could change one rule and change the way modern dogs operate. Scratch dogs for obvious slick trees.

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5637

It's a catch 22 deal, the dogs of today are in fact a product of the competition hunts, like it or not. I like the concept of scratching a dog for slick trees, it would definitely change the game. Accuracy should be the foremost measuring stick of a coon dog. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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