Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

This may sound crazy but I think my standards when it comes to how a Coonhound should perform has kept me from owning dogs that can compete on a high level. I have always hunted a lot more during the week than hunting in competition hunts. My standards for a dog came from the era of 50 years ago. Slick treeing wasn't even something that was a concern. You just coonhunted and like the deer hunters or the bird hunters or any other hunter. You hunted to HARVEST GAME and you based your success on that and set standards on the dogs or equipment you used. The dogs and equipment was a positive part of the hunt that shouldn't malfunction. Hunters that harvested game has good equipment including dogs.

I seems like today a lot of energy is being put into dogs that seem to malfunction. Problem is when you get older you don't have that energy to accept the failures. . Think of your BOW or RIFLE as your dog. If you hunted and half the time when you sent that arrow or bullet to its target. The it would go 5 foot left or 5 foot right. You would figure out why. You would make corrections. You would get another bow or gun. But if you hunted with that bow or gun and there were so many targets that its malfunction still hit some target. Some would continue to use that bow or gun and brag on it. That is how I feel a lot of todays dogs are. They malfunction way to much. But because of the coon population or watered down rules or people that have become lawyers and know how to argue every dogs mistake into plus points. We are using a lot of dogs that are below par but acceptable in todays world to win a cast.

When, I say watered down rules. It is more like using rules put in place for the way our dogs behaved or operated many years ago. The dogs have changed. But our rules have not. How many of you remember hunting on a regular basis in the nite hunts and just about every tree that was made. The dogs were together. I am not saying that is what I want or that is how it should be. That was just the way it was. But we are continuing to evaluate todays dogs by the rules put in place to evaluate the pack hounds of the past.

When the dogs started splitting up back in the 80's and instead of using the rules as written you had to figure out what to do. Thats when my fun for comp hunts started leaving the game. Thing is most of you younger people hunting never experienced all the dogs together night after night. The truth is, I like it better the way it is today. Just frustrated at times that the evaluation process to determine the best hound. Didn't keep up with the changes in the hound. The rules were once wrote to cover something the dogs would or would not do. If you understood how a dog was suppose to operate. You understood how to apply the rules. Today you have a bunch of written rules to govern dogs that operate in so many different ways the purpose of the rules seem to have diminished. They are there to determine a score and a winner. But not the determine the better dog. When that happens and you can win with a lessor hound. The quality of hounds go down. The younger generation hasn't witnessed this. So for them, it is all good. I say good for them and enjoy your nights in the woods. But understand there was a time when our dogs were held to a higher standard and the game was played more to award the best hound. Not the hound that is hunted in more hunts, not the hound with an aggravating handler that does more to putting the dog in the winners circle than the dog does itself.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 09-30-2018 at 01:56 PM

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Registered: Jun 2015
Location:
Posts: 163

Bruce I agree with what your saying and I'll add another leg in it that really effected me this year with my female. Back then you mostly made corrections on dogs accuracy and running junk every thing else usually fell into place or as long as it had a coon was overlooked. How many times today do we try to fix one little minor glitch to make them the perfect cw dog and end up screwing them up even more?

Here's my scenario I have a 3 year old that for 2 years as accurate as you wanted by herself and wouldn't just blow threw looking for a pop up. She won quite a few cast but her weak point was she wasn't the strongest at recasting. She would go hunting and wonder off and get treed but never bust threw like out of the truck. She still win cast because her accuracy overshadowed it. Now me wanting to make her the perfect dog did everything i could to make her recast, finally it got to the point where she was scared to even go Huntin for me and I had to Send her to a buddy to get her back to normal where she was. Long story short she's just now coming around to me again and if I didn't waste all that energy on one minor glitch she could be alot further ahead now in money won.

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Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 162

Thanks for this post I agree completely it seems the rules are set up to help the handler get a win and not the hound and Mr. jmyers8 I have a young male like the female you described exceptional track dog and accurate but a little slow about going hunting by himself he will go but don't get in no hurry your experience helps me understand we can't build the perfect hound and when it comes to treeing coons consistently they may know more than we do and that's what we wanted all along

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 335

"Just frustrated at times that the evaluation process to determine the best hound. Didn't keep up with the changes in the hound. "

This is the statement that I disagree with the most and is most often said when referencing the nite hunts. The GAME is to win under a given set of rules that are the same for everyone. It was never intended nor will it ever prove who has the BEST dog!!!

Lets compare to auto racing.......just because Chevrolet wins NASCAR races doesn't mean they make the absolute best car and that the others are no good.... And racing events allow slightly different modifications and tracks. etc. Does the driver (handler?) make a difference? Automobiles have made tremendous advancements based on what was learned from racing them.... And most of us dream of being behind the wheel of a race car, but really have no business owning one. Instead, we should appreciate the benefits that racing provides to efficiency, comfort, safety, and reliability that has been incorporated into our daily driver because of what they learned from racing.

In other words, can we learn from competing our hounds things that we would like to improve on? Sure, we can. How far we take what we learn is up to us. I ain't going to win any races with my 4x4, but I wouldn't trade it for a race car either.

George

Last edited by GES on 09-30-2018 at 03:25 PM

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

These are some very honest posts. Has my mind thinking lots of thoughts.
I have been thinking for a long time the hunts really don't work with today's dogs like they did years ago. The htx hunts actually prove the dogs of today better than a cast of dogs. Yet a htx hunt doesn't compete even though the 4 dogs in a cast don't compete either the handlers do!

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1657

Each to his own but when I was starting and working dogs and getting them ready for competition or a big money sale I sure ignored Timothy Balls preaching start'em by their selves and never hunt them with another dog. I started my pups with a straight pup trainer and when the pup showed me he was capable of treeing a coon I started hunting it by itself and I did that until it was confident in itself.Then about once a week I would hunt it with other dogs so it would learn to work with strange dogs and still confident enough to finish what it started. Sure there were adjustments along the way. Most common was starting to loaf after too much alone time. Easily fixed by turning loose with a knock a hole in the dark dog. I didn't mind a dog covering or getting covered since I bred for speed both on track and on the wood. And you can judge that if your dog will work with other dogs.

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Registered: Aug 2014
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Posts: 162

x2. if four dogs are cast one dog opens about 300 yrds away and trees the coon at 0.62 mi. BUT in that time he get caught by the eight min because the other dogs can't smell the track until the last 200 yrds 100+100- 125+ =125+/dog two 75+75+=150+the hunts over who had the better dog?

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Registered: Aug 2014
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x2. if four dogs are cast one dog opens about 300 yrds away and trees the coon at 0.62 mi. BUT in that time he get caught by the eight min because the other dogs can't smell the track until the last 200 yrds 100+100- 125+ =125+/dog two 75+75+=150+ who had the better dog? if dog struck back in for twenty five he will loose on the tie breaker?

Last edited by 100%hunter on 09-30-2018 at 04:17 PM

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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 2760

Got to disagree with your thinking Bruce, the dogs changed because yesterday's hound could not beat a hot nosed pop up fast coon treer then they got faster and more independent. Seems like natural advancement of the hounds. And some lines and breeds are still like the yesterday hound and they can't compete in the hunts or putting fur in the fur shed. Jmo

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Registered: Aug 2012
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Posts: 930

Then they changed hunt rules to handicap the silent ambush hound. However, there were certain strains of cold to medium open mouth tracking hounds that could fly on track that even silent dogs couldn't beat to trees. Alot just won't in the parts of country where there were 12 coons in 150 yards on the ground on edge of hedgerow between 2 cornfields. In other words,the died out and are gone, gone, gone. Sure, some tried to revive it later with papered pedigrees but the open mouth tracking speed was lost forever for most part or they were real similar to the hotnosed ambush dogs, Silent. Most today have never truly seen a cold tracking hound that can blister a track, even back in 70's and I know 80's they were few and far between.The standouts,that is, but when you saw one, you remembered it. I linebred Arkansas River Rattle blooded hounds back then and the still so called hot legends of today could not run with them. Till this day I don't know where all that speed come from. Tippetts Car Bomber, I guess. Lol.

Last edited by swamp1 on 09-30-2018 at 05:16 PM

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Registered: Apr 2007
Location: Southern Illinois.
Posts: 54

You guys think to much and make it hard. Just relax and go hunt.

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: baxter tennessee
Posts: 269

sleepy head I would have to disagree with you on your thoughts on dogs.Years ago coon was not as plentiful as they are now,and the country I hunt in dogs might just make 1 tree a night.If dogs did not pack they either did not make another tree or made a slick tree.Not all the coon thy got today to have hot nose pop up coon dog like they got today.When the coons hides was bringing good money the coon population got thin and if a dog could not track up cold coon they would not tree any mostly making bad trees.Back years ago people coon hunted,trapped and I can remember going up Bellard every year and ther e was more people out in the woods with guns shooting out coon than they was hunting with dogs.I believe dog have changed due to being a hole lot more game.I bet u if coon population went back real low u would see a drastic change in dogs if they treeed coon.Those of you that don’t think so are hunting dogs out of dogs I used to hunt with,same blood.lf coons was scarce we would want more cold nose dogs like there use to be.Do I like old better than new the answer is no,I just like to coon hunt.I love coon dogs and coonhunting and some time we expect too much out of our dogs.Thats more than I wrote in here since I been a member Nuff Said

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Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 162

I agree in thick coons hot nose dogs look real good cold nose dogs still tree coons just not as flashy BUT in thin coons cold nose hounds still tree coons hot nose dogs not so much and if they do you'll never hear it.JMO.

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Registered: Sep 2004
Location: ohio
Posts: 772

Yeah the purpose has changed last 30 years. It used to be a hound was to tree coons for the hides now their purpose is to tree a coon for a win. Most of today's "coondogs" would of been culled by hide hunters 30+ years ago just as most of yesteryear "coondogs" are called pleasure hounds today. There are a handful that are just coondogs period no matter when or where. I have never owned one but have seen two in my lifetime and I have hunted with wch, Grnt, pch etc a lot o real nice dogs out there but that little extra and consistency are where most fall off... None are perfect and they do get better after they are dead...lol

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Registered: Feb 2005
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Posts: 1739

JMO....their "PURPOSE" has been for my pleasure ,that hasn' t changed.
I still enjoy them ...most nites !

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5630

Bruce, you made an excellent post and was very diplomatic with some of the points you made, No one would tolerate a gun, bow or any tool that only performed [ accurately ] part of the time, but a lot of people seem to tolerate dogs that have a low accuracy percentage. I think these people think that is the norm, or that is the best they can get. Hunt in these mountains like I do and see if you tolerate a dog with poor accuracy. I fully expect to see a coon every time a dog trees and absolutely will not tolerate a dog making slick trees. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Jun 2015
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Posts: 163

Look at some of the dogs that are for sale when they talk bout accuracy.. I seen one described as " making big leafy slicks you can circle.. or misses more then they have them. But yet these dogs still brings thousands and still sell. We're part of our own problem most people won t tolerate it but someone out there will still pay money for it.

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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 2760

I was glad Wild Bill won the grand masters. He didn't grab any big leafy trees, draw any minus, but some put stock in trees with no coon seen. UKC didn't

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5630

JR hunts in rough mountains, just like I do, we do not tolerate slick treeing dogs. Hunt these mountains 5/6 nights a week and see if you would tolerate old slick. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Aug 2014
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Posts: 162

x2 I live south of Crossville tn in the same type of country you describe slick is not tolerated here either!!!!

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Registered: Aug 2012
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Posts: 930

35 years ago coonhunters still culled slick tree grabbers, babblers, ill dogs pretty regularly. Then along came the 💰 kc hunts and fighting title Greats and that just about does it.

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3369

This is what changed. 50 years ago a man went hunting, his dog treed 6 times and never had a coon. He couldn't feed a liability so he shot him. Now a man goes to a hunt, his dog trees 6 times, no coon, no minus points. He wins $400. Man I got a winner! People breed females to him to get more of this type of winner.

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5630

Pleasure hunting or competition hunting, I demand accuracy in any dog that I hunt. It's what you settle for, settle for junk, junk is what you have. You may win hunts with that kind of junk, but would you walk these mountains hunting that kind of dog? If you have ever had an accurate dog, you won't ever hunt a slick treeing dog with any pleasure. Nuff said! Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Dec 2013
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Posts: 1514

Bruce, this the best post you have made in my opinion. I am going on 71 don;t have many trees left want to see eyes.

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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 1108

Several have said they won't settle for a dog that misses and I agree that I don't like it. The problem is how to get the dog who doesn't. You can put a pretty good amount of money in your pocket and drive a lot of miles and not find one. You can buy a top bred pup, raise him and train him and not have one that is accurate. Also there are many things that go in to make a good coon dog. Being straight, handle, run a track like a hound is supposed to and stay treed for starters. So I have to look at all those things and see if my dog has enough of those qualities that I want to keep him. I tree coon with my dog all the time but he will and does miss and I don't like it. I just don't know how to get anything better. He will stay here until I can find one.

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