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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2214

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Hall
German short hair pointer. Forget that Bluetick nonsense. Put some heads up nose ability and brains in the pups.

English pointer if you donít care about the brains. But the buggers will have some wheels.

So what you're saying is a pup from a Walker female and a GSP will be more likely to make a good coon dog than a pup from the same Walker female and Big Country. And if you want a dog with wheels and no brains, you don't need an English pointer. I've had a few registered Walkers like that.

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Old Post 12-09-2019 03:19 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9810

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
So what you're saying is a pup from a Walker female and a GSP will be more likely to make a good coon dog than a pup from the same Walker female and Big Country. And if you want a dog with wheels and no brains, you don't need an English pointer. I've had a few registered Walkers like that.



I been studying on it hard and I think that blue dog crossed on my rattler and bad habit would give me that 100% ability and effort and indifference that I am looking for I can still train and make one peak at the right times as good as I ever did but might need sombody with better legs for the hunts lol.


Tar

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Old Post 12-09-2019 04:36 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17917

..."effort and indifference"... Is that Tarspeak for "deep and alone"?

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 12-09-2019 at 04:55 PM

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9810

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
..."effort and indifference"... Is that Tarspeak for "deep and alone"?



No that means clean up every coon that deep and alone run past.


Tar

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17917

Sorry, but why didn't you just say that to begin with? Does Big Country start hunting as soon as you cut him or does he straight line to get away from company? And you mention Bad Habit, didn't John Strickland own him also?

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9810

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Sorry, but why didn't you just say that to begin with? Does Big Country start hunting as soon as you cut him or does he straight line to get away from company? And you mention Bad Habit, didn't John Strickland own him also?



He ainít a one coon a cast dog. And yes John owned bad habit.


Tar

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Old Post 12-09-2019 05:21 PM
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Reuben
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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 930

Hybrid vigor can produce you the best coondog you ever owned and it can also produce you a cull that is more resistant to disease than either parent to include being more fertile...and it can produce all in between...

my guess is that if both unrelated lines come from great coon dogs then the percentages of better all around pups that make coon dogs should be better...

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Larry Atherton
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6511

I don't think there is much hybrid vigor between our hounds with exception of some plotts.

Look how much Tennessee Lead (Black & Tan colored hound) and other fox hounds had an affect on our coon hounds today. Almost any trait you see in a Walker you can find in a Bluetick, English, B&T, Redbone, and vise-versa. Face it most of our breeds come from the same or nearly same foundation stock.

Line breeding and in-breeding are tools for increasing likeness. The scientific term is homozygous. Outcrossing is breeding to unrelated lines increasing gene variation. Hybrid vigor is a result of increasing gene variation. The scientific term is heterzygous. The result of increasing variation is often above average offspring who can not reproduce their likeness. You are basically re-shuffling the deck with each outcross.

The thing to remember is breeding schemes are tools. No tools is the new end all of tools. All tools have have good and bad to them. It doesn't matter which tools we use as long as we as breeders are responsible for what we reproduce.

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Preacher Tom
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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 699

It doesn't matter which tools we use as long as we as breeders are responsible for what we reproduce.

Larry Atherton it is that very statement that makes me wonder if I want to go ahead with an Airedale/Walker cross. Don't want to bring 6-8 culls into the population and the only way to know is to hunt them or get them in the hands of someone who will hunt them. As we all know there are a lot more guys that talk about coon hunting than guys that are in the woods night after night.

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Old Post 12-09-2019 06:40 PM
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yadkinriver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1219

Mr. Lambert

I have followed your breeding practices and am sure you are aware that certain strains within a breed "nick" better with your strain and when you need some outside blood you know where to go toget it. A "nick" in an outcross of tight strains give you the hybrid vigor talked about and I'm sure you're just having fun with the boys. Bait'em in and have a ball.

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Old Post 12-09-2019 07:02 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17917

I like to see how everyone else thinks and I believe that you are never too old to learn. Breeding coonhounds is not a very scientific endeavor. Everyone including me has their own ideas or hypothesis but they are only theories and can't be proven. Hybrid Vigor is one of them. But we can discuss it and try to learn from the discussion.
But in the end, Hybrid Vigor only refers to health and endurance which means a lot to race horse breeders but not as much to most coonhound breeders. Coonhound breeders tend to focus on traits such as nose, hunt, tree and track. Now you can double up on these traits by breeding a male with a lot of one trait to a female with a lot of the same trait and get pups with even more of the trait than either parent has. Of course what you should be looking for however is a "balance" of the traits. You can get in trouble by breeding in too much of one trait and ignoring another trait.
So, be careful what you wish for. Hunters wanted independent or "alone" dogs. They bred solely for this and ended up with "deep and alone" dogs. Now they are trying to reign them back in and get "close and alone" dogs.

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9810

Richard in the walker breed there is no deffinate line for an out cross. Most times when a superior athlete ( coon dog ) that wins at a higher level they do not reproduce quality pups. So if you see a dog in anouther breed that is superior and reproduces superior and you breed your tired blood to that dog and it works would that not be considered hybrid vigor ?


Tar

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Old Post 12-09-2019 08:05 PM
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Preacher Tom
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 699

There are several traits we strive to have in our coonhounds. Hunt, track, tree, mouth, temperament, indifference. That is not all but a good list to start with. Now under each one of these there is another set of qualities we breed for. For instance Hunt: how fast, how far, head in the air, or on the ground, straight line or zigzag or circle. Or take Tree: under this we have locating ability, chop or bawl on tree, how many barks, stay treed, get treed quick or check himself. Under each of the traits originally listed you could list sub categories. So it shouldn't surprise us that it's a pretty complicated deal to consistently breed coon dogs. I for one have never had one that was exactly what I want in each trait.

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17917

Preacher Tom, now add to that, "one man's trash is another man's treasure".

Tarbaby, it all depends on what you mean by "works".
Hybrid Vigor.... Hybrid is an outcross and vigor is a more "vigorous" individual. Since a bluetick and a walker are both coonhounds, is this really an outcross? A better coonhound can be but would not necessarily be a more "vigorous" hound.

Now if you stipulate that each UKC defined breed is actually a seperate breed or gene pool and a better (in your opinion) coonhound is a more vigorous hound, then yes that would be a case of hybrid vigor.

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Old Post 12-09-2019 09:39 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9810

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Preacher Tom, now add to that, "one man's trash is another man's treasure".

Tarbaby, it all depends on what you mean by "works".
Hybrid Vigor.... Hybrid is an outcross and vigor is a more "vigorous" individual. Since a bluetick and a walker are both coonhounds, is this really an outcross? A better coonhound can be but would not necessarily be a more "vigorous" hound.

Now if you stipulate that each UKC defined breed is actually a seperate breed or gene pool and a better (in your opinion) coonhound is a more vigorous hound, then yes that would be a case of hybrid vigor.




Completely out of the breed gives you a completely different gene pool still is a hound but no relatives multiple 5 or 6 times like the walkers.


Should also be healthier less prone to illness.


Tar

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Old Post 12-09-2019 10:04 PM
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Larry Hall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 379

Well, since no one really wanted to start a fight over the bird dog comment or blue tick dig. Iíll revisit.

Iíve hunted with the Big Country dog a few times. Heís the real deal from that limited exposure. Well put up, rangy sucker. Gets through the country and had a coon when he parked. Saw him cross the river on a cold Dec night to get it done one drop.

If I couldnít find a walker to suit me or wasnít happy with what I was hunting I would not hesitate to try a cross bred Walker/Big Country pup. Might be something worth while there.

Didnít they breed him to the half time Ruby dog? If so that would be quite interesting.

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17917

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Should also be healthier less prone to illness.
Tar



Why should they be healthier or less prone to illness? Canine illnesses are in canines. I don't know of any walker specific or bluetick specific illnesses. You might be breeding illness into your walker line from the blueticks. There is no reason to believe that the pups would be healthier than if you outcrossed to another line within the walker breed.

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Old Post 12-09-2019 10:20 PM
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stevwallace
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Registered: Sep 2009
Location:
Posts: 65

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Hall
German short hair pointer. Forget that Bluetick nonsense. Put some heads up nose ability and brains in the pups.

English pointer if you donít care about the brains. But the buggers will have some wheels.

O yea they will move

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osimpson4
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: NorthTexas
Posts: 27

Big country

I haven't got the chance to hunt with him yet, but I seen Steve a couple months ago and we talked about him over supper one night. By the way he described he was a sure enough coondog with all the coin sense in the world. Said he would tree them close or far, in front of or behind a dog , whatever it took. And he always seems to know where to go find one. I'm kinda thinking about a crossbred one myself lol.

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Old Post 12-09-2019 10:26 PM
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9810

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Why should they be healthier or less prone to illness? Canine illnesses are in canines. I don't know of any walker specific or bluetick specific illnesses. You might be breeding illness into your walker line from the blueticks. There is no reason to believe that the pups would be healthier than if you outcrossed to another line within the walker breed.



Because there is no other breed that is as nearly inbred as the walker dogs they are the first ones to line up on the hip displasia or thyroid bus and non resistant to tick ailments. But I for one have tried to not cross as tight on certain dogs and my dogs are not sick hardly ever.


Tar

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Old Post 12-09-2019 10:29 PM
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9810

Re: Big country

quote:
Originally posted by osimpson4
I haven't got the chance to hunt with him yet, but I seen Steve a couple months ago and we talked about him over supper one night. By the way he described he was a sure enough coondog with all the coin sense in the world. Said he would tree them close or far, in front of or behind a dog , whatever it took. And he always seems to know where to go find one. I'm kinda thinking about a crossbred one myself lol.



I am in southern Oklahoma you might get your wish.


Tar

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Old Post 12-09-2019 10:31 PM
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osimpson4
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: NorthTexas
Posts: 27

I know where you are Mr Hitt . I met you over at redgys before. My name is Otis Simpson. I see that Jeff Ricklefs is hunting him right now. We should just call Jeff and tell him to come down for a pleasure hunt.

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Old Post 12-09-2019 10:39 PM
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9810

quote:
Originally posted by osimpson4
I know where you are Mr Hitt . I met you over at redgys before. My name is Otis Simpson. I see that Jeff Ricklefs is hunting him right now. We should just call Jeff and tell him to come down for a pleasure hunt.



Thatís how I got the habit blood lol. I like Jeff he is a good hunter.


Tar

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Old Post 12-09-2019 10:46 PM
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osimpson4
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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: NorthTexas
Posts: 27

He's a gooden

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Hittman
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Thackerville Ok
Posts: 170

Rattler blood with Swamp Rooster blood cross would be interesting to. If you could find anything close to swamp rooster.

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