Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

I have and maintain 2 lines of hounds, one for 23 years and another for going on 10, multiple generations of line breeding.
And something i am seeing in litters more and more is that the grandparents and great grandparents show up allot more than you might think.
Many think they are getting pups out of 2 parents, and that's what the litter will be like. Wrong there will be some little parents and some little grandparents in there also.
if you don't know the dogs you will never notice this!
No great mystery here, just an observation i am seeing thru years of breeding. Hope this helps someone.
Fryar's Treeing Walkers

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

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Grand sire effect! We notice it often. Not just hunting traits, mouth abitlity but personality and traits others who don't know the line would never notice.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Abbeville S.C.
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I Agree 100% I got a pup here in my pup pen super smart super loud will go hunting like a grown dog want be a year old till august put him in there when he was 4 months old he is gonna be a natural finally found out what he was out of yesterday been very curious.His daddy is Smoking Joe off your Redneck Mafia and Rats Hi Country Ann

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If I could find one I liked around the house and in the woods I’d be as happy as a possum eatin a sweet tater

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Once upon a time a wise king told his son…it is better to marry and have children with a fair maiden whose heritage is that of kings, queens and great warriors than to a marry a beautiful maiden from a long line of peasants…

Of course it is best when both sire and dam are of the highest quality…but sometimes one must look past the sire or dam to make a breeding…it shouldn’t be common practice but in some cases it is the better option…

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quote:

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Originally posted by Reuben
Once upon a time a wise king told his son…it is better to marry and have children with a fair maiden whose heritage is that of kings, queens and great warriors than to a marry a beautiful maiden from a long line of peasants…

Of course it is best when both sire and dam are of the highest quality…but sometimes one must look past the sire or dam to make a breeding…it shouldn’t be common practice but in some cases it is the better option…

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Sacrificing quality is never an option,
But most don’t know they are getting something from the first 3 generations, maybe sire, maybe dam, maybe grandpa? Better like the line of dog, not just what he has won😉

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

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I have migrated toward all grand, even then, Im not getting all pups nearly the same, because remember all grand only takes one pup to keep it going. So we keep getting pups all over the map quality wise. Since I have never had a world champion, I keep thinking, all the stars must align, plus a great handler, maybe I'm not that guy.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Mercer PA
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Unfortunately it takes a lifetime to develop that kind of relationship with a dogs background. Even with the best choices and crosses there are road blocks along the way.

People have been breeding coondogs for what seems like a hundred years or more and we still have not found a formula to produce the kind of consistency we all desire. It is just plain hard and a lot of times woefully unpredictable. I think a lot of times we utilize revisionist history looked at what worked after it has worked.

Take the best dogs with the best backgrounds and give the pups a shot. Its quite simply all you can do. If you are honest with yourself about what you are getting you can make decisions for the future.

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That is why it is so important to have multiple generations of good dogs in a pedigree.

One "Brood female" multiple generations back can still have a big affect on a litter of puppies.

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Here is a question I always ponder. What is more important when raising a litter? A background of reproducers or great dogs? Although I know ideally you would have both, but some of the greatest performing dogs that ever mashed mud couldn't reproduce squat...and some mediocre performers really reproduced well. I am way more worried about what is in front of me than what is behind me. Im worried about my next dog, not the dogs 20 years from now....lordc I might be dead or not hunting....So reproducing dogs are very important.

Any thoughts on this?

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Ron Ashbaugh
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Very few dogs are reproducers, Look at all the stud dogs that have been blown up, just to fade away.
"Traits are more important than wins"
And extreme traits (tree,etc..) go on to push other traits out.
Balanced hounds usually reproduce best in my opinion, with solid pedigree's.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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This is a cool discussion. If I ask questions please don't get defensive as I am in no way questioning your methods, I am simply trying to learn.

Since you are invested in the treeing walker breed id like to ask about a dog like Rat. By all accounts he was a less than balanced dog and produced pups that were known for tree first....but reproduced winners. How would an unbalanced dog like that help or hurt a program?

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Ron Ashbaugh
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Here is another thought how long can you breed for balance before you get mediocrecy?

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I won’t talk about a particular sire on the board, but years ago, I bred to some of the sires in that category, and I did not recognize the pups that I was raising, changed the whole dynamics of the dogs, you could throw a grease rag on the truck and they would tree.
I learned a lot about balance from that ordeal.
For me it is accuracy and track that I must keep, you can get tree about anywhere…..lol
Sires are like tools in a tool box, need the right socket for the right bolt.
Most need to go back to track, tree has been focused on for too long.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Pam that’s a good question!
If you’re paying attention to detail and have good stock, not breeding just because ole banjo has some wins or good papers.
A good looking, accurate, hard hunting dog will keep most happy and every now and then a real stem winder pops out.
Just look at the extremes out there now😊
What happened?

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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quote:

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Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
What happened?

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You tell em Mr Ashbaugh. How long do these extreme hot rods last? I have one and I have to work on it all week just to go to town on the weekend. But it sure does show off on the weekend until it blows up again.

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I am the worst person to be contributing to this discussion because what I look for in a dog is not the extreme and I am likely more in the camp of balanced dogs. A MAJOR requirement of mine is that the dog is easy to get along with at home. I spend way more time with the dog at home than in the woods and if I hate it at the house....I don't care how good it is...but then I am also not trying to win anything and likely never will.

Just like Richard isn't using his hot rod to go get groceries folks like me aren't looking to place in the money on friday and saturday. The guy who wants to take his horse on a trail ride isn't winning the KY derby with that same animal. It all comes down to what you are looking for in a dog....but finding enough people with similar requirements and desires is hard in todays age of coonhunting. If you want to sell your pups, you need to be producing winners and at times the winners aren't what your average fella was looking for 40 years ago.

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Ron Ashbaugh
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I think we also need to be clear that Balanced does not in anyway mean “ mediocre”

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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quote:

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Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
I think we also need to be clear that Balanced does not in anyway mean “ mediocre”

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Webster says: keeping or showing a balance; arranged in good proportions.
Arranged in good proportions I like that, no secrets, been talked about 1000 times, people either put the work in and are honest with themselves about what they are hunting or they just say it can’t be done.
Not all make it, but the majority do 😊

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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The way they want dogs for these hunts now they think balanced means one that can leave barking and fast as they can run.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Webster says: keeping or showing a balance; arranged in good proportions.
Arranged in good proportions I like that, no secrets, been talked about 1000 times, people either put the work in and are honest with themselves about what they are hunting or they just say it can’t be done.
Not all make it, but the majority do 😊

---

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Last edited by Ron Ashbaugh on 06-01-2023 at 11:10 PM

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Sorry, I thought we were talking about a balanced hound?

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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