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UKC Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.3.0 UKC Forums > Departments > UKC Coonhounds > 14. Calling Dogs Off Trail.
Remove this minus Rule from the Rulebook.
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Yes, per proposal. 12 35.29%
No, leave as is. 22 64.71%
Total: 34 votes 100%
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8582

14. Calling Dogs Off Trail.

14. Calling Dogs Off Trail.

ē Eliminate Rule 4 (e) {For calling dogs of trail}.


2019 UKC RULE PROPOSAL CLARIFICATIONS AND NOTES
Be advised, the following notes are the opinions/statements of those who submitted the proposals and may or may not necessarily reflect the opinion of UKC.

PROPOSAL 14: Under current rules 7. TIME OUTS and all Time Out situations referred to Rule 5. (g) Delete Points, Rule 4 (e) unable to be utilized as a strike minus and is therefore obsolete. This rule is just taking up space on a score card and confusing to those that may still try to use to move to a new hunting spot when a dog or dogs are still at large. Under current rules concerning Time Outs 7. (a-f), 5. (g) Delete Points, there is no longer a way for 4 (e) Strike Minus to be used.

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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
14. Calling Dogs Off Trail.

Under current rules concerning Time Outs 7. (a-f), 5. (g) Delete Points, there is no longer a way for 4 (e) Strike Minus to be used.



I absolutely disagree with this statement .

4(e) is plain and simple . You minus dogs for calling off track.

So am I to understand under this proposal. If the track is going no where and everyone agrees to call time out no one will take minus ?
And I disagree it is just taking up space. One itty bitty line.
I really have to disagree that this rule is obsolete even when trying to twist the rules cited to attempt to evade minus points on a poor track.
Which is exactly what will most likely end up being .An excuse to call dogs off without repercussions.
If dogs are still at large so be it. If they are trailing and you call them off they need to take minus . Except in certain cases that are in rule 7.
If they are not trailing there are no fears of minus, delete, circle , etc. to even consider.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

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Dogwhisper
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 1545

Calling time out just cuz the dog(s) can't progress a track is a deserved minus ........and we all know that is how this will be used to save the trackmindless dog(s)!

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
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Posts: 8929

From the handlers point of view if the dog that is winning the cast is a mile deep. And the majority of the cast is close and easily handled they might call time out being they wonít take a minus and he might not make it back in the hour.


Tar

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Dogwhisper
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These rules aren't about the handlers .
Their about dogs, or at least they should be.

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Redneck Mafia
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Go read Rule 7 Time Outs. You not find a way to call time out to move spots just because you want to minus and move when dogs are on trail. You will also find per the rules that ALL time out scenarios are referred to Rule 5 (g) delete points, there is no exception given if you call time out points are deleted. (Dogs that are treed in are scored dogs at large struck in are deleted).

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8929

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
These rules aren't about the handlers .
Their about dogs, or at least they should be.





Whole lot more hunts are won with the handler than the dog now days.



Tar

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Redneck Mafia
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Location: Seneca, Mo
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Awhile back we had a long discussion about this very rule. At some point and time in the past (which apparently no one noticed) calling time out for what ever reason you want and using this rule 4 (e) was removed from the Time Out rules. So here we are today with a rule on the card but no way to implement it. Now if someone wanted a timeout scenario to fit this rule they should have wrote one and along with an exception to Rule 5(g) delete points submitted it to their breed association for consideration but no one did. As great as it sounds to simply minus dogs catch them within the hour there are times when other cast members that are winning may not want to move. Rule 7 Time Outs has a long list of when you can call time out, make something fit or stay where you are.

__________________
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8929

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia

Awhile back we had a long discussion about this very rule. At some point and time in the past (which apparently no one noticed) calling time out for what ever reason you want and using this rule 4 (e) was removed from the Time Out rules. So here we are today with a rule on the card but no way to implement it. Now if someone wanted a timeout scenario to fit this rule they should have wrote one and along with an exception to Rule 5(g) delete points submitted it to their breed association for consideration but no one did. As great as it sounds to simply minus dogs catch them within the hour there are times when other cast members that are winning may not want to move. Rule 7 Time Outs has a long list of when you can call time out, make something fit or stay where you are.



Jen you got me mixed up are they not voting to call time without taking a track minus ?


Tar

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Old Post 06-26-2019 08:10 PM
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HERSHSHUNTIN
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: gillett PA
Posts: 517

why not just reword rule 5e to read if dogs are trailing when hunt time has expired ---this is what I think was originally meant, but was worded wrong
just because the dogs are working an old track the cast should not be able to decide they want to call time out to find a new area to hunt and then delete those points.

__________________
Herschel Burt

hershtwo@yahoo.com
Life member NRA
Current dogs
GR CH NT CH RED MIGHTY 90-Bo/Sierra
NT.CH.GR CH BEYOND BILLY HTX --Billy the Kid/ Amber
GR CH 1ST & 2ND place wins 90/4 LIFE GUN-HTX==-Willy BOY/Bigtime Britt
Dogs I have owned
Nt ch Gr ch HERSHS HUNTIN RED IKE
NT CH CH HERSHS HUNTIN BUDDY
GR NT CH MILLERS DIRTY RED
NT CH CH LYNN'S CREEK JULIE
GR CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED KATE
CH NITE CH AMBRAW RIVER TIMBER ROCK
NT CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED CLEM
NT CH ROCKY TOP CHERRY

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Dogwhisper
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4(e) is a safety Vale to prevent such "hanky panky".

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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3821

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Jen you got me mixed up are they not voting to call time without taking a track minus ?


Tar


No just voting to remove a rule from the card that currently has no way to be used. Right now people are still using it for calling time out minusing dogs and collecting within an hour when according to the Time Out rules can no longer be done. Removing it will remove the confusion. My best guess is at sometime the rule change committee took it out of Time Outs and forgot to take 4(e) off the card. I would gander it was removed to prevent hanky pansy as was mentioned. Dogs running junk, tracks that kill hunt time ect just to move maybe hit a hot coon and maybe be able to come in with a score instead of a scratch or dead cast. Then there is always the dog handler that gets out voted that is winning gets his strike minus ed with the same hope for the remaining cast. Rule 7 makes you have a legit reason for moving or when all dogs are on the leash.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA
GRCH GRNITECH PKC GCH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3821

quote:
Originally posted by HERSHSHUNTIN
why not just reword rule 5e to read if dogs are trailing when hunt time has expired ---this is what I think was originally meant, but was worded wrong
just because the dogs are working an old track the cast should not be able to decide they want to call time out to find a new area to hunt and then delete those points.


They can't unless they can find a reason under 7 Time Outs to call time out. Read the Time Out rule all time outs they are referred to rule 5(g) delete.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA
GRCH GRNITECH PKC GCH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMI-FINALIST. 2016 UKC TOP 20. 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE. 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4. 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION
NITECH PKC CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION

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HERSHSHUNTIN
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: gillett PA
Posts: 517

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
They can't unless they can find a reason under 7 Time Outs to call time out. Read the Time Out rule all time outs they are referred to rule 5(g) delete.


I reread rule7 and see what you mean, but how does this work if a guide takes a cast to a 10arce woods and there is no other woods for 3 or 4 miles--the way 7 reads they can't call time out unless one
of a,b,c,d or e is happening.

cast sometimes need to call a time out to find new hunting areas--and I don't see where this is covered in the rules

__________________
Herschel Burt

hershtwo@yahoo.com
Life member NRA
Current dogs
GR CH NT CH RED MIGHTY 90-Bo/Sierra
NT.CH.GR CH BEYOND BILLY HTX --Billy the Kid/ Amber
GR CH 1ST & 2ND place wins 90/4 LIFE GUN-HTX==-Willy BOY/Bigtime Britt
Dogs I have owned
Nt ch Gr ch HERSHS HUNTIN RED IKE
NT CH CH HERSHS HUNTIN BUDDY
GR NT CH MILLERS DIRTY RED
NT CH CH LYNN'S CREEK JULIE
GR CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED KATE
CH NITE CH AMBRAW RIVER TIMBER ROCK
NT CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED CLEM
NT CH ROCKY TOP CHERRY

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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

Am I missing something . How can it "NOT" be used.

4(e) is plain and simple . You minus dogs for calling off track.
How hard is this to under stand? It can't be done
Excepting...Ö..

Rule 7 deals with when it is permissible calling time without minus to trailing dogs.

The problem has happened with your interpretation because the score card rules were condensed. Leaving extra language that explained 4(e) was deleted.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Last edited by Pat Bizich on 06-26-2019 at 11:27 PM

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joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3669

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Go read Rule 7 Time Outs. You not find a way to call time out to move spots just because you want to minus and move when dogs are on trail. You will also find per the rules that ALL time out scenarios are referred to Rule 5 (g) delete points, there is no exception given if you call time out points are deleted. (Dogs that are treed in are scored dogs at large struck in are deleted).



You are misinterpeting this.

Rule 7 tells you when it is permissible to call time and if under rule 7 you call time you can delete.
7. TIME OUTS
Judge or majority of cast if hunting Judge is used,
may call time out in accordance with the following:
(a) When dogs are getting on highway, trail onto
posted land or trail into a place where there is
danger to dogs or hunters.
(b) If dogs get with another group of dogs.
(c) When all dogs are on leash and have been
scored.
(d) In case of accident or sickness.
(e) When dog(s) are trailing out of hearing in different directions.
(f) If all dogs are declared treed or are on leash
time out shall be called after 10 minutes of
hunt time has been used walking to each split
tree. Time is back in during shining time or if
dog leaves tree.


No where in that rule does it say you can simply call time because you feel like it and gather dogs because you want to move. That's what rule 4E is for. If the cast says we do not like this spot we want to move any dog that is struck in is minused per rule 4E. It has a purpose.

It also keeps cast from catching and sending dogs a different direction after they are struck without calling time because they didnt like where they were going.

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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
No just voting to remove a rule from the card that currently has no way to be used. Right now people are still using it for calling time out minusing dogs and collecting within an hour when according to the Time Out rules can no longer be done. . I would gander it was removed to prevent hanky pansy as was mentioned. Dogs running junk, tracks that kill hunt time ect just to move maybe hit a hot coon and maybe be able to come in with a score instead of a scratch or dead cast. Then there is always the dog handler that gets out voted that is winning gets his strike minus ed with the same hope for the remaining cast. Rule 7 makes you have a legit reason for moving or when all dogs are on the leash.


Okay you say rule 7 gives you a legit reason for moving or when all dogs are on leash. Exactly ..Legit reasons.
That is where 4 (e) comes in. You do not have a legit reason to call time out so dogs get minus . See how simple that is ?

You say...Right now people are still using it for calling time out minusing dogs and collecting within an hour when according to the Time Out rules can no longer be done.

You are right .It can not be done. But you never could either. NOT WITHOUT TAKING MINUS.
right back to 4(e) so you take minus for doing it if dogs are on a trail.
I wish I had an older score card. I surely believe at one time some where on that card there was another time out allowed .That was when the cast needed to find new ground. So this may be the whole problem and what was really taken out of the time outs rules because that goes without saying.

4(e) has always been there far as I can remember they just removed the extra language.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

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joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3669

Regardless of timeouts rule 4e keeps the cast from catching dogs and redirecting them without even calling time. It doesn't necessarily have to be tied in with timeout.

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Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8929

Now I am really confused ! 7 things you can catch them for 1 thing you canít ooooooook !


Tar

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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

I am going to pose one more question.
If 4 (e) gets deleted

Other then the Rule 7 "legit" catching dogs off a track

Show me anywhere in the rules the consequences of a dog being caught off a track and not being held accountable for their strike points .

I am not talking about dogs quitting and coming in or the 8 minute strike rule.
I mean handlers actually physically catching a running dog off a track and not taking minus for doing so.

I am not trying to be argumentative .Really. I think backwards to most people .LOL.
I just cannot understand how this proposal will improve our hounds abilities by allowing them to be caught off bad tracks without consequences. And these same dogs will end up winning a cast over a better dog.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 123

If a dog or dogs is struck in it should be held accountable for that strick. It should have to finish it or draw minus. You canít call time out an up an move because dogs are struggling. If nothing is struck in I can see it making sense. Then again if whole cast agrees rule doesnít matter anyway.

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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3821

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
[B]
I don't think you guys get !
#1 you cannot decide to call time out, minus dogs catch them and move spots. It is no longer in the rules hasn't been for a long time. You will notice in the above screen shots even Allen admitted he doesn't know why 4 (e) is still on the score card.
The only reasons to call time out are listed under 7 Time Outs and because you want to is not listed. You will also notice that in accordance with 5(g) is given for these situations in which points are deleted not minus.
If you run out of land to hunt then dogs are probably getting to land you don't have permission to be on use the posted land time out. Dogs looking like idiots is not listed, sorry you're stuck in that spot.

__________________
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Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
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Old Post 06-27-2019 01:43 AM
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1616

When ya have to use rule 7 but ya can't minus a dog that is struck in then there is bigger problems here. Rules like this makes for dishonest casts. 4e should be reworded not thrown out.

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Old Post 06-27-2019 01:57 AM
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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3821

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
When ya have to use rule 7 but ya can't minus a dog that is struck in then there is bigger problems here. Rules like this makes for dishonest casts. 4e should be reworded not thrown out.

I would bet that the way to use 4(e) was taken out of the rules to prevent the dishonest cast from compensating the lack of dog power they had in the spot they were cast.

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Old Post 06-27-2019 02:13 AM
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joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3669

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
I would bet that the way to use 4(e) was taken out of the rules to prevent the dishonest cast from compensating the lack of dog power they had in the spot they were cast.


What rule do you use if a guy just decides to call his dog off track? What do you do? I dont mean calling timeout, just calls his dog in and sends it the other way?

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Old Post 06-27-2019 02:30 AM
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