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UKC Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.3.0 UKC Forums > Departments > UKC Coonhounds > Proposal 12 - Scratched for Fighting
Should dogs be seen in the act of fighting or attempting to fight before scratching?
You do not have permission to vote on this poll.
Yes, the judge should have to see dogs in the act. 63 56.76%
No, a competent judge knows what a fight sounds like without having to see it. 48 43.24%
Total: 111 votes 100%
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1615

Some people wouldn't set out to light break them but it would happen then they would roll with it or they might sell it and some one else would roll into the hunts with it.
Heck I already have went to the hunts and drew out with dogs that even though there not mean there not something with an attitude that suits me so I put up with them and hope all goes well. Now just imagine having to draw out with dogs that are nasty as a snake but ya can't do anything till ya see it down right fighting away. And then drawing it hunt after hunt.
If that happens it couldn't be good for attendance.

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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1999

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
Never done it , had others tell me if you hear a fight an it stops before you get to tree donít handle them. Letíem go back to treeing you will find out which one caused the problem. May work , may not. I think itís pretty sorry for a person to light brake one. They know itís mean an find ways to still hunt the dog. People with that kinda mind set there is not much a rule will do.
I don't think many people intentionally light break them. You go to the tree and correct them. Pretty soon when they see a light coming, they become angels.

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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3810

This rule change does not affect a casts ability to head to the tree to investigate the happenings.
There have been light broke dogs for decades. Nothing in the rules prevents a judge from turning off the light when getting close to the tree.

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sleepy head
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 1895

I haven't and won't take a dog to the hunts that I think would just start chewing on another man's or lady's dog. No excuse to do so

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1615

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
This rule change does not affect a casts ability to head to the tree to investigate the happenings.
There have been light broke dogs for decades. Nothing in the rules prevents a judge from turning off the light when getting close to the tree.

I don't think you understand what the future of this rule will hold. It's really not a good move for the majority of the hunters.
I imagine you and your dog can handle whatever comes your way and that is great but you and your dog are way better than the majority of most hounds and handlers.

I really feel if ya have to see them fighting ya may as well go for a free for all and drop the fighting rules all together. At least it will be honest. I just think I would pass on the hunts comfortable.

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Sgraves
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Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 122

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
I don't think you understand what the future of this rule will hold. It's really not a good move for the majority of the hunters.
I imagine you and your dog can handle whatever comes your way and that is great but you and your dog are way better than the majority of most hounds and handlers.

I really feel if ya have to see them fighting ya may as well go for a free for all and drop the fighting rules all together. At least it will be honest. I just think I would pass on the hunts comfortable.

I understand the way you see this . If you donít try an see what dog started it you will end up getting honest dogs scratched. Like I said before, a dog will fight back to protect itself. Itís not promoting a dog fight , itís catching the right dog.

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1615

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
I understand the way you see this . If you donít try an see what dog started it you will end up getting honest dogs scratched. Like I said before, a dog will fight back to protect itself. Itís not promoting a dog fight , itís catching the right dog.
the fact is the honest dog won't get scratched cause they don't have to fight back. I know this is not the popular opinion. Or maybe it will get scratched but the true honest dog may also get scratched either way the rule goes. Everybody 's dream dog will just back off and never get in trouble and never leave but how many ever mention that in there standards for there dogs? Not many cause they settle for less.

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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3810

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
the fact is the honest dog won't get scratched cause they don't have to fight back. I know this is not the popular opinion.


Now we get to the bottom of it. The fact is unless you see it you don't know who the aggressor is, even with only 2 dogs at a tree.
Maybe some of you think it's ok to scratch from a distance based on your ears but unless I see it I'm not. Who you gonna scratch the loudest dog in there lol.

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ringtail
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2668

If I am reading the proposal correctly, you have to SEE the fight before any action can be taken.

With that stipulation in place, say you have 3 dogs treed on the same tree and a knock down drag out is heard. As you are approaching the tree, fight stops and is over when you arrive. Two dogs are covered from head to toe in blood the 3rd dog is clean and has that I'm scarred for life after what I witnessed look.

Since you didn't actually see it, nothing is done
Score the tree and cut loose for round two.

Is that right?

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Kler Kry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 544

Re: Ken

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
You don't need a rule change.
You needed a new judge. You could have question the call and asked for a cast vote.
I feel for your unfortunate situation but some times that is also the bad breaks.
There is no perfect answer to fix all situations but I guarantee you that having to see them fighting is not the answer. That will just promote trained fighting and turn away attendance.



When you have a two to two tie vote the judges decision stands and in this case was upheld by the Master of Hounds and it was in the best interests of the third hunter to side with the judge and eliminate the competition. The other KC winners are often determined by minus points given instead of plus points earned. This incident was my first UKC experience of this type of culture, but I've experience it numerous times in the other KC.
If the judge was required to make an attempt to identify the aggressive dog it would be an improvement. HONOR RULES ! There is no honor among thieves.

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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1772

Rough Dogs.

I have no use for them, or the people that hunt them. I see no reason to make rules to protect them.

If there is a known rough dog in my division of the hunt, I won't enter my dog and pay an entry fee. I will just pack up and go home. Next time, I won't even attend to start with.

Some of the rules proposals I'm seeing fly in the face of coonhunting with coondogs. This one is about protecting the rough dogs. There's another proposal that would penalize open trailers vs. silent dogs.

What's the objective? A silent-trailing, split treeing alligator? If so, I will pass!!! I'd rather have a coondog!!!

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1615

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Now we get to the bottom of it. The fact is unless you see it you don't know who the aggressor is, even with only 2 dogs at a tree.
Maybe some of you think it's ok to scratch from a distance based on your ears but unless I see it I'm not. Who you gonna scratch the loudest dog in there lol.

2 dogs. Man up take your mean dog home and get higher standards for you and your dog. Your right now we are getting to the bottom of this. No 1 and I mean no 1 wants to man up and accept they deserve.

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pamjohnson
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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1615

Re: Re: Ken

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
When you have a two to two tie vote the judges decision stands and in this case was upheld by the Master of Hounds and it was in the best interests of the third hunter to side with the judge and eliminate the competition. The other KC winners are often determined by minus points given instead of plus points earned. This incident was my first UKC experience of this type of culture, but I've experience it numerous times in the other KC.
If the judge was required to make an attempt to identify the aggressive dog it would be an improvement. HONOR RULES ! There is no honor among thieves.

honestly you did exactly what you were supposed to and you got exactly what you deserved. Was it a bad break? Maybe? There is no fix all unless it is a free for all.

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1615

The world hunt a few years back was won by Pac man. Toe cutter was on that cast. They wanted to see if Pac man was aggressive so the judge watched the tree to see if a fight was going to break out. They carried the black dog back to the truck after the hunt.

Is that what we are after?

I personally have scratched 2 dogs in a cast this year for fighting. Both was rolling under the tree full blown fight. The handlers had to break up the fight. Simple case of your both scratched right? Heck no the handlers had words and after that they still didn't feel there dogs were deserving of a scratch. Bottom line no one wants to except what they deserve. Winning is more important than honor even with honor rules. Bottom line.

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Donnie Stevens
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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
Posts: 2318

Re: Rough Dogs.

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh

What's the objective? A silent-trailing, split treeing alligator? If so, I will pass!!! [/B]


Agreed. Don't need a hound anymore. Cross a cur with a Rottweiler and hit the road.

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Sgraves
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Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 122

WOW, When did Harry Reid an Nacy Pelosi get involved with coon hunting. Talk about a liberal approach. A honest hound does not stand a snow chance in hell.

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Chuck Allen
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Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
Posts: 1001

Well this is how I see it scratch all dogs involved if aggressor is unknown , yep including mine , if this happens more often less jealous dogs that exhibit rude behavior will be taken to town for the hunts. Because they are banned after what 2-3 offenses for fighting. A couple of years ago , I drew a well known and liked handler , actually rode with him I was hunting my Judge dog , several of the guys at the club warned me about one of the dogs in my cast that was supposed to be mean , any way the Judge was concerned , and I flat told him well if this dog is really that mean , Ole Judge is not mean at all and a real good pup trainer , pups can jump all over him we even had a Yorkie that would sleep with him and eat out of the same bowl with him. But like Gus off the movie Lonesome Dove , he will not tolerate rude behavior especially from a barkeep. So I told the Judge on the way to the first drop if a fight breaks out at the tree SCRATCH THEM ALL , and then we can hurry in their and save that mean dog while he is still breathing air. Nothing happened on or during the cast at all. And we only treed one coon. JMHO

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Kler Kry
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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 544

Scratching Aggressive Dogs

I'm a firm believed in scratching the aggressive dog. I've been on a three dog cast where the dogs locked up when first released and the dogs weren't scratched because I wasn't the judge and I got out voted. I've seen the aggressive dog leave the tree when the cast approached leaving the two remaining innocent dogs to be scratched. It is just unfair to scratch the innocent dog that gets attacked.
Quit making your problem the other guys problem. We have always had aggressive dogs and breeders haven't taken the responsibility for it. It takes a minimum of two generations to eliminate the trait genetically. When you encounter an aggressive dog either its mother or father should have been spayed or neutered. A mean dog or a school yard bully who may be a crooked judge are the same. They don't deserve 3 strikes.

It is unfair to give a crooked judge power to eliminate competition by scratching an innocent dog! This rule is not only about aggressive dogs it is about hunting judges who win by scratching or giving minus point in order to win. This is my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Ken Risley

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H DOG
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I agree with Ken 100% percent

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harleydan1956
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Very well said, Ken

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pamjohnson
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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1615

Re: Scratching Aggressive Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
I'm a firm believed in scratching the aggressive dog. I've been on a three dog cast where the dogs locked up when first released and the dogs weren't scratched because I wasn't the judge and I got out voted. I've seen the aggressive dog leave the tree when the cast approached leaving the two remaining innocent dogs to be scratched. It is just unfair to scratch the innocent dog that gets attacked.
Quit making your problem the other guys problem. We have always had aggressive dogs and breeders haven't taken the responsibility for it. It takes a minimum of two generations to eliminate the trait genetically. When you encounter an aggressive dog either its mother or father should have been spayed or neutered. A mean dog or a school yard bully who may be a crooked judge are the same. They don't deserve 3 strikes.

It is unfair to give a crooked judge power to eliminate competition by scratching an innocent dog! This rule is not only about aggressive dogs it is about hunting judges who win by scratching or giving minus point in order to win. This is my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Ken Risley

I don't believe much of this post. The breeding part is incorrect. The crooked judge will still be crooked. If the dog is fighting it is part of the problem. All handlers have dogs that are little angels just ask them who the aggressor is. My opinion and I'm sticking to it.

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thomasg
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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: batsville ark
Posts: 1018

unless your whole cast can all run a 2 minute mile 9 out of 10 times a fight has been had on a cast no one is going to see it . lol hearing dogs fighting should be more than enough to scratch all involved . all this rule change would do is protect the deep alone dog that stays alone with fang power.

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shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1999

You would have to run a two-minute mile in the dark because most of these dogs are light broke.

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Pat Bizich
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Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
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Re: Scratching Aggressive Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
It is just unfair to scratch the innocent dog that gets attacked.
Quit making your problem the other guys problem.
A mean dog or a school yard bully who may be a crooked judge are the same.

It is unfair to give a crooked judge power to eliminate competition by scratching an innocent dog! This rule is not only about aggressive dogs it is about hunting judges who win by scratching or giving minus point in order to win. Ken Risley



Funny how some people on here will agree with these statements until it comes time that their own dog is involved in a fight . Then they become that very person that wants to scratch the other dog but not their own.

I drove over 130 mile to go to a nite hunt with a guy I thought was a friend. At a tree we were searching unbeknown to me he tied his dogs lead 2 inches ,yes that's correct no typo , from my dogs lead. With our backs to the dogs the leads entangled and a fight ensued. He threaten to DROP KICK MY DOG for fighting with HIS MOST FAVORTIST DOG(his words) and only wanted to scratch my dog.I argued both must be scratched not just mine. He refused. Guess what .None got scratched.

This is a part of the mentality of hunting judges we have to deal with of scratching the other guy but not me .

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