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UKC Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.3.0 UKC Forums > Departments > UKC Coonhounds > Proposal 12 - Scratched for Fighting
Should dogs be seen in the act of fighting or attempting to fight before scratching?
You do not have permission to vote on this poll.
Yes, the judge should have to see dogs in the act. 63 56.76%
No, a competent judge knows what a fight sounds like without having to see it. 48 43.24%
Total: 111 votes 100%
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
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Proposal 12 - Scratched for Fighting

12. Scratched for Fighting.

ē Change rule to make it mandatory that dogs must be seen fighting or attempting to fight in order to scratch.




2019 UKC RULE PROPOSAL CLARIFICATIONS AND NOTES
Be advised, the following notes are the opinions/statements of those who submitted the proposals and may or may not necessarily reflect the opinion of UKC.

PROPOSAL 12: This change would require Judges and cast members by vote to witness visually before scratching a dog(s). *UKC has put into play procedures to use if you suspect that a dog fight has broke out to catch the culprit(s). Unfortunately there are unscrupulous hunters and a few non-hunting judges in our mist who would be more than happy to scratch their competition. Rules that are up to interpretation allowing dogs to be scratched need the loop holes closed. One should be sure before a dog is scratched from a cast. If it is seen fighting or attempting to fight that caused an interference scratch em'.

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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 117

When am judging a cast I will give a warning first , than if I know itís the same dog causing the problem I will scratch that dog. This is a good rule but also a rule that if common sense is not used it can be blown out of proportion . My dog is not ill , but because he moves around on the tree some it causes problems. No I do not like it one bit. This rule will be a hard one because people have their dog light broke . I know one an when light comes on he turns into a gentleman. Have been scratched for it, even though judge seen how it all happened. Not gonna have a dog that canít defend himself. By nature they are supposed to fight back.Just my 2 cents.

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Rolin Blues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2499

Yes & No

If you have 4 dogs treeing on tree, you have to see which 2 dogs are involved. It usually is a 'bad break' for someone for that hunt, but as a handler of a 'clean' tree dog, you go home knowing it's not going to happen again any time soon.

If only 2 dogs on tree & fight breaks out, I would also give them 1 warning to see if I could figure out who aggressor was UNLESS they are both balled up when I walk in. If next tree has a fight with different dog, then you can figure out who aggressor in first incident probably was. Take care, Ron.

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Robert Johnson
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 3828

There is no such thing as a warning in UKC. Warning a dog is like firing a warning shot from a gun. It is a waste of ammo and time. Warnings are only asking an owner to continue to put his dog in harms way, or give the dog that is being bullied time to get enough of the crap and end it. Warning will scratch the wrong dog half the time. NO SIR! no warning is needed. The rules already have provided that info to the owner who knows his dog is bad before he tries to hunt it. We don't need that change, unless you will go along with one warning, then scratch from hunt, resulting in a lifetime ban for the hound that starts it. If aggressor can't be determined, scratch involved dogs for period of two years. There is no room for mean dogs in this sport. Its already hard enough to find hunters. Add a few with mean dogs and your club attendance goes way down.

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TylerOSU
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2017
Location: Miami, Ok
Posts: 287

Loners

If everybody had loners this wouldn't matter! You cover me and we have a fight I'm going to be mad at you not my dog. Don't come in late and expect to get free credit.

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Rolin Blues
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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2499

Robert

If you have 4 dogs on tree & have fight you hear, but with light broke dog, all are 'angels' when you walk in, which dog/dogs are you going to scratch??? Take care, Ron.

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1612

Re: Loners

quote:
Originally posted by TylerOSU
If everybody had loners this wouldn't matter! You cover me and we have a fight I'm going to be mad at you not my dog. Don't come in late and expect to get free credit.
now this is a poor attitude. That is part of the whole problem. You sir don't care about any one other than your self. Maybe some day you'll grow up and realize how ridiculous your attitude and how much better a dog can be. Until then try an learn some respect for others. Keel Johnson

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Sgraves
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Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 117

Explain ď if agressor canít be determined involved dogs will be scratched for two yearsĒ. I know what it says , but how can anyone control what a dog had no intentions on getting involved with anyway. I respect you Robert, an think you are a good MOH . If I walk up to you an knock you to the ground will you lay there? Of course not , a dog is not gonna lay there either. Canít just go scratching dogs . Tyler came across as a smart ass , but he has a point. We wonder why are dogs are so screwed up.

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Robert Johnson
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 3828

I think no one really got the jist of what I was saying. I am saying don't change anything. A warning is nothing more than a fight promotion. If they have shown enough aggression to get a warning, scratch them. That's what we are supposed to be doing now, but it isn't happening. The rest of that crap I wrote was just to get some folks to think about the kind of dog they are bringing to hunts. Most that have a mean dog, knows it. Most that have a tree jacker that will start a fight at tree know it. The penalties for this kind of thing need to be swift and decisive. I know, some will say the dog running up the tree and falling on the other dog was not agression. Maybe not, but what caused the fight? The real root cause? At some point we have to get away from the excuses and begin the task of getting hounds to hunt in packs again. Loners are hurting the sport. Not enough ground to hunt on. Fighting dogs are the worst thing that can happen. Not only are they scratched, but there could be some hefty vet bills too.

Maybe the real answer to the problem area is go ahead and warn them once and scratch on second offense in the hunt. Once they are scratched for fighting from a hunt, the owner and the handler both know that this dog is mean, or has great probability of being so. Add a line in the rule that says after the second scratch the owner and handler will be barred from hunts for two years and then this problem starts to go away. Oh I know they will say the numbers are already fading away, but get rid of one mean dog and two more start hunting. There is no real answer to solve the problem totally. We are dealing with dogs and they have their own minds, but they are trainable, and we should be training for the correct behavior and eliminating the type we don't want. Seems simple enough, but is almost impossible if all the registries are not on the same page with this type of rule, and most important the hunters themselves have to honest and honorable in forcing the rules as written. Yes....impossible for sure.

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Sgraves
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Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 117

I agree. Like I said, the dog am hunting now moves around on tree to much. Trees me a lot of coon. But just for that I will not breed him, I really consider it a fault. Would really go along with that being a fault that if a hound has it will be minused or scratched. What really needs to happen is the owner of a mean dog needs to be held more accountable. Ban the owner for two years. People know what their bringing to theses hunts.

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harleydan1956
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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Canton, Ohio
Posts: 1658

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
I agree. Like I said, the dog am hunting now moves around on tree to much. Trees me a lot of coon. But just for that I will not breed him, I really consider it a fault. Would really go along with that being a fault that if a hound has it will be minused or scratched. What really needs to happen is the owner of a mean dog needs to be held more accountable. Ban the owner for two years. People know what their bringing to theses hunts.


That last 2 sentences makes the most sense of anything I have read on this post

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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3790

This proposal adds one word "seen" to the rules. All it does is prevents dog(s) from being scratched from afar or without visual of the fight or witness of aggression that caused interference. It does not change any procedure that UKC has in place such as heading to a tree to investigate the happenings. It makes a rule black and white instead of gray.
PROPOSAL 12: This change would require Judges and cast members by vote to witness visually before scratching a dog(s). *UKC has put into play procedures to use if you suspect that a dog fight has broke out to catch the culprit(s). Unfortunately there are unscrupulous hunters and a few non-hunting judges in our mist who would be more than happy to scratch their competition. Rules that are up to interpretation allowing dogs to be scratched need the loop holes closed. One should be sure before a dog is scratched from a cast. If it is seen fighting or attempting to fight that caused an interference scratch em'.

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TylerOSU
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2017
Location: Miami, Ok
Posts: 287

Re: Re: Loners

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
now this is a poor attitude. That is part of the whole problem. You sir don't care about any one other than your self. Maybe some day you'll grow up and realize how ridiculous your attitude and how much better a dog can be. Until then try an learn some respect for others. Keel Johnson



LOL! Maybe you're the problem hunting backpackers? I've never had one or seen one scratched for a dog fight tbh. hunted in thousands of casts. I know it happens but normally there is more to the story than 1 mean dog.

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Robert Johnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 3828

Rule has never been gray. Judges and handlers are gray. The rule has always been steadfast and reads the same everytime you read it. Hunters try to bend it to fit their needs. What it needs is more bite put into it instead of less. Then the honest hunters will stay so, and the dishonest will begin to get weeded out. Simple really.

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Johnson Creek Kennels
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Redneck Mafia
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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3790

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
Rule has never been gray. Judges and handlers are gray. The rule has always been steadfast and reads the same everytime you read it. Hunters try to bend it to fit their needs. What it needs is more bite put into it instead of less. Then the honest hunters will stay so, and the dishonest will begin to get weeded out. Simple really.

Read the pole... Competent Judges know, the problem lies in that there are all to often a shortage of them. You yourself just mentioned those who want to bend the rules, hence a lack of competence and also the unscrupulous.
Using specific language leaves nothing up to interpretation. No changes are made except the word seen. With those around us that as you put it "bend it to fit their needs" "and the dishonest", you just proved the point of why rules shouldn't be left up to interpretation. They should be specific, this one will be by adding one word. Nothing is changed in the procedure that UKC allows to catch dog(s) in the act.

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yadkintar
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Jen if the judge sees it can he still be out voted by the cast members ?



Tar

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Redneck Mafia
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quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Jen if the judge sees it can he still be out voted by the cast members ?



Tar


A non hunting judge no. A hunting judge voting is just like always. Judge makes the call, if someone disagrees with a judges call you vote, per the rules it would take a majority to over turn.

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Robert Johnson
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 3828

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Read the pole... Competent Judges know, the problem lies in that there are all to often a shortage of them. You yourself just mentioned those who want to bend the rules, hence a lack of competence and also the unscrupulous.
Using specific language leaves nothing up to interpretation. No changes are made except the word seen. With those around us that as you put it "bend it to fit their needs" "and the dishonest", you just proved the point of why rules shouldn't be left up to interpretation. They should be specific, this one will be by adding one word. Nothing is changed in the procedure that UKC allows to catch dog(s) in the act.
[/QUOT]

Bingo. you get the prize. Just as I have said all along. Nothing really changes except that one word. With it, the whole rule undergoes a drastic change. You have to see verses not. That a large change, but I don't care either way. unless they are all non-hunting judges its always going to be a cast vote, and hence people come back into play. Personally, and if you read the current rule correct, no interpretation is needed now. This is a hunter/dog/honesty problem, not a rule problem. I am done now. I will enforce what is given to me in the rule book, just as I have always tried to do.

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Johnson Creek Kennels
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Robert Johnson
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 3828

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Read the pole... Competent Judges know, the problem lies in that there are all to often a shortage of them. You yourself just mentioned those who want to bend the rules, hence a lack of competence and also the unscrupulous.
Using specific language leaves nothing up to interpretation. No changes are made except the word seen. With those around us that as you put it "bend it to fit their needs" "and the dishonest", you just proved the point of why rules shouldn't be left up to interpretation. They should be specific, this one will be by adding one word. Nothing is changed in the procedure that UKC allows to catch dog(s) in the act.
[/QUOT]

Bingo. you get the prize. Just as I have said all along. Nothing really changes except that one word. With it, the whole rule undergoes a drastic change. You have to see verses not. That a large change, but I don't care either way. unless they are all non-hunting judges its always going to be a cast vote, and hence people come back into play. Personally, and if you read the current rule correct, no interpretation is needed now. This is a hunter/dog/honesty problem, not a rule problem. I am done now. I will enforce what is given to me in the rule book, just as I have always tried to do.

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Johnson Creek Kennels
home of:
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2009/2010/2011/2012 AKC GA. State Leader and Supreme Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

2010 ACHA Georgia State Champion Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

PKC Champion Yadkin River Addkis

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Treeing Walkers

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1612

I have never seen a dog scratched for fighting unjustified. I thought it happened to me once but after I cleared my mind I realized the judge was correct my young dog needed scratched. I have seen way to many dogs not scratched fast enough before things got out of hand.
P S, my young dog got worse with age.

I feel making us see the fight is to late. It also makes a handler benefit from light breaking. For them reasons and more I feel it would not be a wise choice to change this rule

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shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
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I had two of the baddest ones ever and you weren't gonna catch either one of them unless you could see in the dark.

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Kler Kry
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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 543

Re: Proposal 12 - Scratched for Fighting

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
12. Scratched for Fighting.

ē Change rule to make it mandatory that dogs must be seen fighting or attempting to fight in order to scratch.




2019 UKC RULE PROPOSAL CLARIFICATIONS AND NOTES
Be advised, the following notes are the opinions/statements of those who submitted the proposals and may or may not necessarily reflect the opinion of UKC.

PROPOSAL 12: This change would require Judges and cast members by vote to witness visually before scratching a dog(s). *UKC has put into play procedures to use if you suspect that a dog fight has broke out to catch the culprit(s). Unfortunately there are unscrupulous hunters and a few non-hunting judges in our mist who would be more than happy to scratch their competition. Rules that are up to interpretation allowing dogs to be scratched need the loop holes closed. One should be sure before a dog is scratched from a cast. If it is seen fighting or attempting to fight that caused an interference scratch em'.



The current rule allows two dogs to be scratched without the judge making any attempt to determine which of the two dogs is the aggressive one.

My personal experience happened last year at the Zone hunt. My dog and another were treed 20 feet from where we made the first cast and there sounded like aggressive behavior. We couldn't see the dogs on the tree and since it was within 5 minutes of the start of the hunt the dog owners were the only ones that knew which dog was which. The judge refused to walk 20 feet to observe the dogs on the tree. The hunting judges dog was not one of the dogs treed. He claimed that observing the dogs on the tree would not help as we probably had them light broke.
PLEASE SUPPORT THIS CHANGE AS IT COULD SAVE THE INNOCENT DOG FROM BEING SCRATCHED.
I hunted a one year old dog all summer in the heat won an RQE. drove over 300 miles to the hunt and spent a lot of money to be scratched by a judge that wouldn't walk 20 feet and make any effort to determine the aggressive dog. The other dog sounded like he was blowing, but it could have just been the way he treed.
PLEASE SUPPORT THIS RULE CHANGE AS IT COULD BE YOUR DOG NEXT TIME. Ken Risley

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Old Post 06-13-2019 03:13 AM
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1612

Ken

You don't need a rule change.
You needed a new judge. You could have question the call and asked for a cast vote.
I feel for your unfortunate situation but some times that is also the bad breaks.
There is no perfect answer to fix all situations but I guarantee you that having to see them fighting is not the answer. That will just promote trained fighting and turn away attendance.

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Old Post 06-13-2019 02:09 PM
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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1996

So, it's mandatory to SEE the fight. If only two dogs are treed and a fight happens and they're light broke. No scratch. If four dogs are treed and a fight breaks out and you don't see it, but when you get there two dogs a covered in blood and the other two are 15 feet back treeing, no scratch. Is this what we're striving for?

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Old Post 06-13-2019 04:12 PM
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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 117

Never done it , had others tell me if you hear a fight an it stops before you get to tree donít handle them. Letíem go back to treeing you will find out which one caused the problem. May work , may not. I think itís pretty sorry for a person to light brake one. They know itís mean an find ways to still hunt the dog. People with that kinda mind set there is not much a rule will do.

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Old Post 06-13-2019 05:45 PM
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