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dean jamerson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2006
Location: Pamplin Va.
Posts: 441

quote:
Originally posted by ole hoss
I went to one big ukc hunt!! Purina Nationals!! I felt like I was a fish out of water!! We honestly stood in a feild for 3-4 mins with our lights off waiting to squaw on a tree 3 dogs was on and mine was still running through yonder, I insisted they could squaw, shake, shoot whatever they wanted to do but letís not stand here looking at each other!! Next night a black dog trees a coon on a fence row and mine is split down from him. We walk off the tree heck I start the minute and him and the judge go to talking and he says heís going to just lead his in to mine)??!!?! Said it was his option? What kind of crap is that? The rule book over here is NUTTS!! Explain to me why a dog that gets to a tree at 4:59 deserves 75? No donít waste your breath because weather itís mine or yours if itís that dad gone slow it needs culled!! If it came just to say hello it needs work!! Jmo and thatís why I donít go to them!! I use them to train my dogs at a local level and to me thatís about all there good for!! They get the rules right and get there money right and Iíll be there!! The dog that trees the most coons should win in my opinion no matter the kc and the rules need to make it where the dog that trees the most coons has that opportunity!!




Here is your answer as to why the numbers at the ukc hunts have fallen off, too many micky mouse rules! I think we can all agree the rules need to be changed. With that being said the biggest brew hahaís i have ever seen came when judges were trying to pick and choose what and when to use and apply rules. Its common sense to ignore this rule but not that rule, it opens the door for problems.

I hunted somewhere around 10 cast in feb, march and april of this year, the most i have hunted in 20 years, about equal number of ukc vs pkc, and i left away scratching my head, because i didnt run into much of what i see complained about on this message board, never had a dog leave babbling that someone struck off of, i hunted five cast at the spring classic and they were all good cast, out of the five ukc cast had only one handler that was a dandy.

I dont think the sky is falling, with the availability of all the different hunts, I only have so much disposable income to spend, i am going to spend my money in the hunt formats that I like. If the old guard is not willing to adapt their rules to what most hunters prefer they will be left behind. You either move forward or backwards, nothing stays the same.

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Blaze P.
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Agreed.

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 16910

The problem is deciding what "most" people want.

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Blaze P.
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Registered: Jan 2019
Location: Broughton, Illinois
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Problem is people making it hard.

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joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3669

I've hunted in the hunts for 30 years. I've seen people scratched for arguing, I've seen them scratched for off game, minused out and dog fights. Everyone of those offences deserves being scratched, but in 30 years I've never seen anyone scratched for anything else. I've seen them warned for a few things but that's it. Four pages of comments suggest there is a epidemic that doesn't exist. They are scratching offences because they are against the rules, what are you supposed to do with them?

Lets take the shinning before time, its a rule you have to have so how else do you enforce it? People have a problem seeing people get scratched for squalling at the tree, its a rule and has to be enforced until its changed. These are competition hunts and are set up with rules to follow if you don't follow them you are no longer part of the competition. I have judged a lot of cast and I have reminded guys that squalled to early but if I do it and get scratched then it is my fault. I'm not going to be upset with anyone but myself.

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H DOG
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Registered: Sep 2011
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Scratching some one for squalling is getting a cheap win . You need to get better dog.

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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2001

quote:
Originally posted by H DOG
Scratching some one for squalling is getting a cheap win . You need to get better dog.
Is scratching a dog for fighting or treeing a possum cheap? Which rules are cheap and where can we find a list of rules in order of cheapness? Do we decide for ourselves which rules to follow?

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yadkinriver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1147

If you don't think you'll get scratched for a scratchable offense then you'd better stick to pleasure hunting. Good old boys have died out. People paying to hunt are trying to win. If your buddies son is on his first hunt and on your cast and you want to give him a break there are two more that don't. Sportmanship and honor are almost nonexistent anymore. It's all about winning.

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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3814

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
Is scratching a dog for fighting or treeing a possum cheap? Which rules are cheap and where can we find a list of rules in order of cheapness? Do we decide for ourselves which rules to follow?

No not a cheap win but as for a list refer to rule change proposals.
Look closely at all rules that involve a scratch and proposals that involve them.

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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 2908

Changes

Now is the time to change these Rules, put the common sense that is lacking into action. Eliminating this foolishness from the RULES is a hugh step forward to achieving a true champion in our Hunts. We do not need a deserving dog or handler being scratched for such minor offenses, we need to focus on the best dog winning every time. I remember a guy loosing the UKC WORLD HUNT by pecking on a den tree and getting scratched. It happened in the final 4 cast and he could not be beat score wise, but another handler complained that he beat in a den tree ( Really) and per the RULES he was scratched and a lesser dog won the Hunt. Was this equitable and did the crime fit the punishment? Well, per the RULES it happened, did he make a mistake? Yes, should he have got scratched? Did his action really deserve this, or should his dog have been scratched, when he was clearly the best dog in the cast and could not be beat. Emotions are high in situations like this and anyone can make a silly mistake, but a true winner should never be decided on something like that. JMO. Dave

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joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3669

Re: Changes

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Now is the time to change these Rules, put the common sense that is lacking into action. Eliminating this foolishness from the RULES is a hugh step forward to achieving a true champion in our Hunts. We do not need a deserving dog or handler being scratched for such minor offenses, we need to focus on the best dog winning every time. Dave



Oh I see the problem now. Your thinking these hunts are set up to see who has the best dog. Just ask any of the 4 guys out there. They all got the best dog. So in their eyes if they won then the best dog did.

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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 2908

Michael Rosemond

Lol. Thinking you have the best dog is one thing, proving it is another thing. Let the winner be decided by scoring coons and not by a silly thing like the handler shining to early or squalling to soon, eliminate these rules. Dave

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8924

The deciding factor is when your hunting at a local hunt for a win twords ntch or hunting for $10,000+ and your job depends on you winning .......... me thinks !!



Tar

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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 2908

Tar

You are correct, but whether it's a local hunt or a World Championship hunt, the best dog should win by treeing the most coons, not by default over some petty rule like hitting a den tree , shining to quick, or squalling to soon. Get rid of these rules, or modify them to give a warning on first offense, scratching is not the answer to get rid of the competition. Dave

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nitehunter2004
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12020

Dave Not Every One does it to get rid of the competition Some Do It Because THATS WHAT THE DA$$ RULES SAY DO! No Cast Can decide to Change A Rule.
I agree the rule needs Changed But Shame on You to keep posting that people dose this because they need a better dog! Most Hate to enforce the rule But It Is What It Is! Iv only seen One person scratched for this bad rule and that was my handler At the zones.

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8924

Re: Tar

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
You are correct, but whether it's a local hunt or a World Championship hunt, the best dog should win by treeing the most coons, not by default over some petty rule like hitting a den tree , shining to quick, or squalling to soon. Get rid of these rules, or modify them to give a warning on first offense, scratching is not the answer to get rid of the competition. Dave



Here is the way they look at it Dave you drive 16 hrs to a hunt you get a room for the week $300 entryís at the end of the cast it is close a man has to find his coon to win he blows his squaller to quick without thinking all the other guy has got to do is say judge he just blew his sqauller to win. Me if my dog ainít there when we get there blow the guts out of it if mine comes in minus me.


Tar

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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 2908

Tar

I agree 100 percent, me and you would probably never win thinking like that and that's okay with me and you. If we did win, we could be proud of our dogs and ourselves. I know that is WAY more important than a tainted win by default, at least to me. Rally to! Dave

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8924

Re: Tar

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
I agree 100 percent, me and you would probably never win thinking like that and that's okay with me and you. If we did win, we could be proud of our dogs and ourselves. I know that is WAY more important than a tainted win by default, at least to me. Rally to! Dave



Dave difference in me is I prepare for those situations I train my dog not to come to a tree after I get there and if they blow that sqauller my dog is going to haul boogie knowing they better not come in there with me there and they will be under a coon somewhere.


You do your training at home.


Tar

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 661

Re: Scratch Mentality

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
How many ways to get scratched that have nothing to do with misconduct or aggression issues...
I read the polls on getting rid of the squalling rule or the silent on track rule and it leaves me scratching my head. I see one major issue and that is those who look for and hope for a reason to scratch a cast member instead of beating them by out coondoging.
I have an idea, if you would like for cast to be more enjoyable get rid of the scratch mentality this kennel club suffers much to often from and encourage the passing of some of these changes.
If your concern is getting beat by someone who blew on a squaller or is hunting a silent dog you have a whole lot bigger issues to worry about.
I also read a comment about breed standards... if that is a concern maybe what should be addressed is that the typical show dog looks nothing like the dogs in the parking lot for the hunt not the other way around.




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JAH
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Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 85

Re: Changes

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Now is the time to change these Rules, put the common sense that is lacking into action. Eliminating this foolishness from the RULES is a hugh step forward to achieving a true champion in our Hunts. We do not need a deserving dog or handler being scratched for such minor offenses, we need to focus on the best dog winning every time. Dave




Just because it won its cast does not mean its the best dog.It just had a better night then the other dogs maybe.And to use your logic of how getting awarded for a cast win now instead of the old way seems to be better then sliced bread.How do you know the dog that won its cast is the best dog since it never hunted against all the dogs? Heck do it like fox hunters do at their trials turn all of them loose at once together.Using some peoples logic that would be only way for the best dog to win.Yes I know that sound dumb.But so does a lot of the crap some others are saying on here. Or heck let anything go no rules make it a free for all.Might as well go all out on stupid while you are at it.I've seen two dogs scratched in my life.One minused out the other one the hour got it.That was back in the 1990's.

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 661

Re: Re: Changes

quote:
Originally posted by JAH
Just because it won its cast does not mean its the best dog.It just had a better night then the other dogs maybe.And to use your logic of how getting awarded for a cast win now instead of the old way seems to be better then sliced bread.How do you know the dog that won its cast is the best dog since it never hunted against all the dogs? Heck do it like fox hunters do at their trials turn all of them loose at once together.Using some peoples logic that would be only way for the best dog to win.Yes I know that sound dumb.But so does a lot of the crap some others are saying on here. Or heck let anything go no rules make it a free for all.Might as well go all out on stupid while you are at it.I've seen two dogs scratched in my life.One minused out the other one the hour got it.That was back in the 1990's.


Common sense rules might not identify the best dog in every cast...but common sense rules should identify the best dog over time...

Common sense rules should be written in a way that the best dogs will eventually win...it should be for the betterment of the breed...ideally, when a dog is titled then that dog should be a dog worthy of breeding one day...

It should be about identifying the best dogs first...and winning second...

Sometimes I see someone picking apart a rule because the wrong dog won because of the rule...but if it only happens once in a great while and there isnít any other way to make it better then so be it...if that dog isnít a top contender then his winnings will be limited...

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JAH
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 85

Re: Re: Re: Changes

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
.ideally, when a dog is titled then that dog should be a dog worthy of breeding one day...

It should be about identifying the best dogs first...and winning second...




Just because a dog is titled don't mean any pups out of it will be any good.Just like because a dog isn't titled doesn't mean any pups out of it will be no good.the dog is going to pass on the same stuff to its pups no matter if it has a title or not.That title or lack of title has zero to do with any traits,genes what have you that the pup will get from its sire or dam.

As far as winning or identifying the best dog.I'm pretty sure winning is what really matters to most people when they pay their entry fee.Not figuring out which dog is the best.Plus just because a dog wins that night don't mean its the best dog.It just means it was the best dog at that time.Hunt the same four dogs a week in a row at the same time in the same spots.Most likely will be a different winner each time.So much for the best dog winning theory some seem to have.


Seems like to many people want to change the rules to benefit them and or the dog they are hunting.Can't win lets change the rules till can win mindset.Kind of like saying got cheated when actually just got beat by the dog that was better that night.Easier to make excuses then to admit you just lost

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Josh Michaelis
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
Posts: 1980

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
The deciding factor is when your hunting at a local hunt for a win twords ntch or hunting for $10,000+ and your job depends on you winning .......... me thinks !!



Tar



The man hunting for a living and 10k is usually easier to deal with than the guy hunting a local hunt for a win towards Nt Ch

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Hoosier Man1
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quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
The man hunting for a living and 10k is usually easier to deal with than the guy hunting a local hunt for a win towards Nt Ch


I haven't found that to be true at all. Maybe it depends on where your from.

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8924

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
The man hunting for a living and 10k is usually easier to deal with than the guy hunting a local hunt for a win towards Nt Ch



I am easy all the time I am more worried what they got to eat at the club house than winning the hunt ! It donít quit raining down here I wonít need a dog till next year lol.


Tar

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